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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by Tsathoggua on April 17, 2017, 01:29:33 PM »
Yes they weer fresh. Don't remember any peculiar smells, the material had been kept in a fridge, and presumably, due to its strength was reasonably fresh.
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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by hamsterbob on April 17, 2017, 02:14:27 AM »
Tree graph till it big enough?
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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by carl_nnabis on April 16, 2017, 07:35:37 PM »
I had some rooted cuttings, three times I housed this plant for myself, but it never got old, sadly.
Those plants from the botanical garden, well, I had on several occasions a nice talk to the gardener(offering him a smoke and sitting down for a few mins with him helped a lot ;D), and he told me about the hard propagation of cuttings.
But summer is coming, so I´ll take a few twigs and try my best according to him ;)

Your leaves came from a head-shop? I guess they weren´t dried but fresh instead?
Their arome is certainly interesting.
I think pyrazines are also giving roasted coffee its arome, and kath smells similar in regards of adapting to it.
Like, one has to be accustomed to it, like coffee, but then it becomes really enjoyable(if it is good coffee/kath).
Sadly, kath is a lot more bitter than coffee... ;D

Growing from seeds seem to be hard, but can be done.
Although they are slow growing.

Maybe look for a botanical garden nearby, they usually have a lot to offer, and most of the plants are able to be propagated from cuttings or seeds...

I do not want encourage picking genetic material from those sources, but have to admit to have done so quite a few times in the past...;D
Even have taken from a now sadly dead e. coca var. coca tree(its a tree if its over 3m!) some berries.
Tasted them as well... interestingly, coca berries taste like flour with a little bit of fruit acid... ;D
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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by Tsathoggua on April 16, 2017, 06:32:13 PM »
Got some khat seeds. Any experience growing it? starting it off in particular.

Don't know where the khat Tsath' tried came from, but it was active enough. Didn't ask, only time the head shop in question ever had any, so snapped it up to give it a try. Not bad really.
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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by carl_nnabis on April 15, 2017, 10:53:02 PM »
Sounds like it would be a better idea to prepare directly the D- or L-tartrate or use a chirally directing amino-acid to form the salts from. Otherwise if starting with the HCl, resolution would be a bitch. And the produuct would doubtless end up as a ball of colored snot since you'd have to base it to form a chiral salt and resolve it. Either that or use a chiral synthesis in the first place.

As for cathinone, it isn't half bad. Albeit at the price of a mouthful of leaves and twigs. The good thing about khat is that it takes a while to come on, and its being slowly drip-fed transmucosally so there isn't the abrupt dropoff in activity that leads to fiending. Very different from say, synthetic methcathinone.
Damn!
You are absolutely right, I hadn´t thought of the need to freebase the cathinone to separate it´s isomers.
Thank you very much for that piece of input!  :D

Seems like chiral synthesis is the only option to obtain the purely natural isomer.

But what options do we have for that?
The FC reaction with chiral alanine derivatives, like the N-phthalimido alaninoyl chloride, the preparation of chiral norephedrine and subsequent oxidation(not as good...), and of course the very tempting reaction of R-PAC with ammonia and cyclohexanone.
The latter reaction is in my opinion the most attractive one, of course only if the preparation of R-PAC is done according to ORG´s proved method.
Also, this reaction seems to give a better yield than the reductive amination of R-PAC, at least in theory.

Tsath, I have tried the leaves already many years ago, and besides the interesting smell they have(pyrazine probably and the norephedrine maybee too? since those alkaloids aren´t present as salts like they are in ephedra species, as far as I know), they are very bitter and have a unpleasant textural feeling when chewed...(a bit like leather)
At least coca leaves are sweet and well tasting, but khat is not!  ;D

But effects? Hmm, doubtful if I´ve felt any, but I´m talking about european grown plants, very mature ones, but still, residing in our cold climate for a long time. Not sure if these plants I´ve taken the leaves from, have ever seen the somalian/yemen drought climate at all....(they were residing in a botanical garden).

This discussion just made the experience of trying cathinone more interesting and appealing...  :D

Edit: Shit I wrote analine instead of alanine... dirty thoughts out!  ;D
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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by Tsathoggua on April 09, 2017, 03:00:30 PM »
Sounds like it would be a better idea to prepare directly the D- or L-tartrate or use a chirally directing amino-acid to form the salts from. Otherwise if starting with the HCl, resolution would be a bitch. And the produuct would doubtless end up as a ball of colored snot since you'd have to base it to form a chiral salt and resolve it. Either that or use a chiral synthesis in the first place.

As for cathinone, it isn't half bad. Albeit at the price of a mouthful of leaves and twigs. The good thing about khat is that it takes a while to come on, and its being slowly drip-fed transmucosally so there isn't the abrupt dropoff in activity that leads to fiending. Very different from say, synthetic methcathinone.
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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by carl_nnabis on April 09, 2017, 01:42:09 AM »
Why bother cleaving the cathinones in vitro at all? IIRC pthalimidopropiophenone itself is viable in the case of cathinone as a pro-drug. Saves having to fuck about given the generally unstable nature of the primary amine cathinones.
As for the cleavage of phthalimidopropiophenone(what a name!), this can be done with conc. aqueous HCl, the resulting solution reduced, and filtered repeatedly to remove phthalic acid.
So the dimerisation can be totally avoided, and unreacted educt is also filtered if remaining. The product can be recrystallised easily to get the pure hydrochloride salt. Just as you know, this may not be the most effective way but it seems to work  :)

And as for why to do this at all, two reasons come to mind:
making norephedrine out of practical reasons, and to prepare cathinone itself because it is a natural cathinone, the only one, and it would be cool to make it synthetic, in my opinion. The use of it as a drug, well, out of interest it would be tried maybe once sometimes, but that wouldn´t be a reason to make it, only my personal opinion though.  :)
Would be even cooler if the natural (S)+ eutomer is isolated from this racemic product ;D

Would be especially attractive in the case of psychedelic ring-substituted cathinones, a slower come-up is the trade-off in the case of a pure stimulant, but could well be desirable in the case of a psychedelic. An abrupt onset can be a bit much for some, and can increase tendency towards nausea. Tsath' has on a couple of occasions, shot (IV) BK-2C-B...
I find those very interesting too, the corresponding -phenones are also mostly easy to make or cheap enough for an experiment if one would  rather buy them.
Maybe some trimethoxy, either the 3,4,5- or 2,4,5- one as most promising ones, are worth to make too?
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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by Tsathoggua on April 07, 2017, 03:26:22 PM »
Why bother cleaving the cathinones in vitro at all? IIRC pthalimidopropiophenone itself is viable in the case of cathinone as a pro-drug. Saves having to fuck about given the generally unstable nature of the primary amine cathinones.

Would be especially attractive in the case of psychedelic ring-substituted cathinones, a slower come-up is the trade-off in the case of a pure stimulant, but could well be desirable in the case of a psychedelic. An abrupt onset can be a bit much for some, and can increase tendency towards nausea. Tsath' has on a couple of occasions, shot (IV) BK-2C-B (partly experimental, partly because at the time (beforehand) his insides had been making a determined attempt at becoming outsides and trying to stick it where the sun don't shine had already proved too slow, with the product dimerizing before absorption; and swallowing it would probably have resulted in it never getting further down than the throat before being shot across the room in a torrent of whatever had at the time, been Tsath's last meal, or something having its origins in same at any rate, despite the rather noticeable lack of traits in common and the permeation of the room with what could, if not in line of sight, be mistaken for a butyric acid spill.

Damned guts, would say they can go to hell if they didn't already behave as if they were, with regards to constant desire for escape and the lava lakes as scenery.  Getting put under in the near future so as to have a camera shoved down the toadly throat and see quite what is causing it. Throwing up to the point it gets bloodstained and theres nothing but bile and foam left down there to throw up and it still not getting the idea and giving up trying, and it sending this toad to the ve...hospital..is no fun at all. Although at least there they gave a shot of ondansetron, something Tsath' had been pestering his GP for for a while and getting knocked back due to the expense of the drug (seriously, its a fucking ripoff to the NHS what they get charged wholesale, £107.91/30x4mg tablets) so no wonder they weren't too enthusiastic about letting a script go. But it'll work when a cocktail of either 8 or 9 other GI meds together haven't done a damn thing and there's still a pukefest every couple of minutes. Call me greedy, but hours or days of that? NICE can take their wallet, wrap it in barbed wire and shove it diagonally up their arses) Unfortunate acronym for an organisation who are to generosity what a faggot sadomasochistic serial rapist loose in a paediactric oncology ward is to sex appeal.
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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by lullu on April 07, 2017, 08:21:56 AM »
These are the most promising papers I've on this reaction. The later even more so in my opinion.

One-Pot Cascade Leading to Direct ?-Imidation of Ketones by a Combination of N-Bromosuccinimide and 1,8-Diazabicyclo[5.4.1]undec-7-ene

Ying Wei, Shaoxia Lin, and Fushun Liang*
Department of Chemistry, Northeast Normal University, Changchun 130024, China
DOI: 10.1021/ol301871s


Regioselective Oxo-Amination of Alkenes and Enol Ethers with N-Bromosuccinimide-Dimethyl Sulfoxide Combination: A Facile Synthesis of ?-Amino-Ketones and Esters
Pragati K. Prasad, Rambabu N. Reddi and Arumugam Sudalai*

P. K. Prasad, R. N. Reddi, A. Sudalai, Org. Lett., 2016, 18, 500-503.
DOI: 10.1021/acs.orglett.5b03540
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Publications / Re: ketones and stuff
« Last post by carl_nnabis on April 06, 2017, 09:09:15 PM »
I think the formation of the phthalimide using the potassium salt was tried, but resulted in a dirty and sticky product, that caused enough frustration to be discarded.
I guess the cleavage would have, without proper purification beforehand, not worked very good.
But this is probably subject of further experimenation, as those reactions for primary amines are versatile and definitely a task that anyone interested in cathinone chemistry would want to succeed in.
Hope this helps?

No, the alkylsuccinimide was never observed according to these handwritten papers.
There is, however, a variation of this reaction that results in the alkyl-succinimide in one-pot from NBS and ketone, but it needs DBU.
I have the paper somewhere, and will attach it as soon as I found it.
This would be an interesting way to get to the primary amine, as a simple HCl cleavage(in n-BuOH or similar solvent) under reflux for a few hours would give the cathinone-hydrochloride.
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