Author Topic: Kollicoat MAE100P, were fucked!  (Read 18597 times)

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JUMPER

  • Guest
Kollicoat MAE100P, were fucked!
« on: February 11, 2004, 01:58:00 AM »
Sorry but had to clean out house incase Wareami is right about doors getting kicked in.
   BASF the largest supplier and manufactutring of Psuedo and Ephedrine in the world, also most advanced in copolymers!
  I have a buddy who works there and it seems they have been having fun with us "Tweaks" for a while but now are feeling pressure from above and are perfecting until full termination of product which is only a step away.
   They have a even better one almost finished to wipe us out from the start, however his buddy will follow through so we think every thing is Okay until precursers destroyed.
   Check out the sweet 4 pigment coloration changes and what this bad mother can do. 
   Also don't miss the highlights of it being in about five different actives including our own psuedo and Eph.
   Look them all over especially the great nick name they choose for Kollicoat, our major fuckall who contains four different pigments,six sodium hydroxide groups for the A/B's and is in titanium dioxide,cellulose 80,actives like psuedo and eph, and about three others we know of. they all are at different places of our process for killing product throughout and in the end a big hot fuckall for smokers!
   We've already been dealing with his little brother for some time.
   I have to go know because I'm going to get sick from this post!
   Oh yeah, by the way you are only a "Tweak" if you are not a chemist who uses meth, from what I'm told!
 
www.BASF.com  To pharma products and then download Technical data on Copolymers.


CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
how is a body able to deal with it?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2004, 06:45:00 AM »
its a wonder a person can get any decongestant from this stuff.
evidently, our digestive tracts are up to the task.
guess we'll have to imitate that?

SHORTY

  • Guest
The body doesn't necessarily need to isolate
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2004, 11:14:00 AM »
The pseudo in order for it to perform its task does it?

The way our body uses the pseudo is a completely different process than the rxn needed to convert pseudo to meth.  I just don't see how imitating the digestive system would be helpful.  But i could bee wrong.


auntyjack

  • Guest
hey jumper
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2004, 11:16:00 AM »
what does this mean;

  "however his buddy will follow through so we think every thing is Okay until precursers destroyed"

so there is a new formulation and then they pull pseudo off the shelves???
       do these company chemists know how to break their own formulations??...they must do it as part of r&d...rhodium's thoughts on these adulterants would be interesting
            have fun


Rhodium

  • Guest
This should beat any polymeric gakk
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2004, 11:55:00 AM »

Osmium

  • Guest
This procedure is also described in Vogel's...
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2004, 12:42:00 PM »
This procedure is also described in Vogel's (5th ed., page 220).
Vogel says you can purify a 2-15g sample with 100g SiO2 and a 70/55mm funnel.


auntyjack

  • Guest
Hey Rhodium
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2004, 01:35:00 PM »
there is a bunch of things on your site that iv'e been unable to access for a few weeks now...it opens up a blank page and then sits there doing nothing...of course this only happens with the best stuff-the most comprehensive pseudo articles and now the one you just posted in reference to the gak troubles...is this computer difficulty me or you?...can you give a hint at what is in the thing on your site: 

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/equipment/flashpad.html



anyhow, have fun


auntyjack

  • Guest
while swij is drunk...can you fuckers learn to
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2004, 02:27:00 PM »
while swij is drunk...can you fuckers learn to spell!!!...and to put sentences together....."Kollicoat MAE100P, were fucked!"...how fucked were they?(the more i look at the word "were" the less it looks like a part of the english language...stupid beer)...but seriously, this is an exciting topic so a few typos in the heat of the moment are forgivable. swij is rather interested in this subject because he discovered that one of his best friends relatives works as a chemist for a BIG pill manufacturer, and coincidentally a couple of hivers are having a similar type of luck tracking down the details of these fucking gaks...so at least over the next year we will have an inside story as to what these bastards are doing...apparently this relative of swij's friend is quite interested in talking to cooks to hear the other side of the story, and he has no qualms about divulging company secrets...yahoo says swij...it may not do any good but it will be fun to swap stories with this dude...anyway,yeah, learn to fucking spell...(especially the word too, as in also)..have fun

PS swij can't look at stuff on rhodiums site for some reason...what the hell is in that above mentioned link??


Rhodium

  • Guest
Read this thread, and answer there
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2004, 02:47:00 PM »

Post 487832 (missing)

(hsark: "cant view certain post on rhodium? please help", General Discourse)



wareami

  • Guest
Google....
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2004, 03:13:00 PM »
AJ: Unless your willing to upgrade your browser, then problems abound accessing certain things.
For the above reference to the doc rhodium refers to do a
for "flash pad chromatography"

As for this new threat....thanx for the heads-UP JUMER!
The Kidz will JUMP right on it!
One question?
Can ya make trampolines with it?




auntyjack

  • Guest
tah
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2004, 03:57:00 PM »

Scottydog

  • Guest
Perfecting gakk
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2004, 04:24:00 PM »
Keep in mind, the chemists do not want to TOTALLY perfect gakk to the point that pseudo becomes unextractable. Think about it, "Great job team, the patent is a complete success, the only meth the DEA will bee busting from now on will come predominantly from Mexico. Now that we have reached our intended goal it saddens me to say that we will only keep a few of you employed for future unrelated projects. The rest of you are free to seek other employment opportunities."

Do you really believe that the DEA or pharm industry wants totally unextractable pills? I don't buy that for a second.

A U.S bees, biggest fear right now are state bills and proposals that would require ID at the point of purchase (turning clerks into cops). It is my understanding that 7 states have passed such legislation. Then a cook would have to theoretically have his customers help in acquisition, take the risk of travelling with a trunk full of pseudo from neighboring states, synth L-PAC or move closer to the border.

Its surprising that some bees have survived the hype for so long.

Also, please remember that state legislators get high too!  ;D


CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
does the body need to de-gakk psuedo?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2004, 07:15:00 PM »
good point; its not the same as doing a rxn; perhaps the body can use it gakked. i suspect not, but sure don't know.

interesting that the body exposes the pill to an aqueous Hcl solution pretty much at the beeginning.

but it does this in the absense of air.
i wonder if that is significant?

it certainly is in the case of glues and caulks and cements.
they stay soft until exposed to the air.

i wonder if wareami has messed with acidic methanol in the absense of air?
followed by tyvek?

i wonder how much fuss bees will go to in this effort?
i wonder what the miracle "cure" for 'Kollicoat" will bee?
if it's an obscure solvent, shouldn't we buy stock in it now?

i wonder if brake cleaner solvent sales made any gakk chemists rich?


SHORTY

  • Guest
Of course it works
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2004, 09:29:00 PM »
good point; its not the same as doing a rxn; perhaps the body can use it gakked. i suspect not, but sure don't know.

You suspect not? as in the otc medications don't do anything when people use them as directed?  Of course the body can use them with the gaaks.


JUMPER

  • Guest
Hey antjack!
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2004, 12:06:00 AM »
First off fuck you and spell check your own shit not others. When I first posted I was busting on people for making up words and shit, and now I love not having to poroof read my shit. I was giving info, not a english essay. His buddy refers to another copolymer who is our psuedo and is not exposed until the meth is used or heated. My buddy said something about the radical copolymers have such huge charges that they are hard to control and pop upon heating for IV or heating for smoking.
   Yes of course they know how to break them down, but I can't get that out of him. He did however say that they use a current and certain chems when doing A/B's to keep the bastards from coming across. Seems they don't like the charge competition and will stay at the uncharged end.
   I got the vibe that the chems were like the extremes at both ends of the ionic scale and then the current used because the copolymers will straddle inbetween and bulk together.
   I don't understand 1/4 of the chemist shit he says because I'm only a english teacher. Maybe I should just record the conversation and print for some chemist to interpret?  Who knows but I'm trying to help the bees!

   As far as the other chemist in industry who wants to know our side and is interested. The chemist playing with us know our fucking side and that's why it's such a fun game for them.


weaz1dls

  • Guest
Well Well
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2004, 12:13:00 AM »
Like SWIW said before, block the ability for the uptake of the pseudo and remove the purpose of the pill itself.

Swiw had a huge folder of collected data. For a week Swiw ripped through the web with 3 pc's linked into one console
switch and now the info is nowhere to be found.  Fuckin sleep does it every time, er anyway one interesting thing SWIW remembers is the change in ph as the acidic mix enters the small intestine. Seems as though all undergoes and a/b from stomach to small intestine ph goes from 2 then up past neutral to aprox 8.0.

Makes sence if ya look at it in terms of handels on molecules.  And slightly basic molecule sits on one side and slightly acidic blood flows on the other.  A titrated salt would form at the interface (moist intestine) passes to the blood and off it goes. The churning of the intestines doesn't concern itself with gacck and the action can be observed in a setup with a ziplock bag which allows one to churn mix and squeeze the contents of the ziplock.  Where is that file?....?? 
Be back soon hopefullly!

Post 467769 (missing)

(weaz1dls: "The village idiot speaks.", Stimulants)

Post 466774

(weaz1dls: "SWIW still believes the key to universal ...", Stimulants)

Post 458978 (missing)

(weaz1dls: "Pill Extraction", Stimulants)
>:(

CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
shorty; i didn't mean that
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2004, 06:43:00 AM »
people can still use the gakked pill for its intended purpose (though i doubt they work as well as they used to)
i wondered if the body has to de-gakk the pills beefore they work, and if so, how that occurrs, and can it bee copied.

seems that the pills need to take effect beefore they get into the intestines. wouldn't that take several hours?

just thinking on it..

auntyjack

  • Guest
re: gak & sorry jumper
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2004, 09:09:00 AM »
one question is how much if any gak gets into your bloodstream, and then if it does get in what does it do? having seen this stuff it makes me a bit ill to think people eat it...

gee...i'm really sorry jammin, it's easy to hassle people on the other end of the net, especially if one has had a few...


Rhodium

  • Guest
Your physiology is safe
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2004, 10:00:00 AM »
Polymers tend to stay in the intestine, unless being of a type the gastric juices can depolymerize (such as starch, protein etc). The infamous gakks aren't of that type, and are thus not taken up by the body.

The reason the body can "de-gakk" pills is because of active transport and osmosis-like behaviour. The closest you can get in the lab to such mechanisms is either the chromatography technique I linked above, or to use dialysis tubing where the pores are large enough for the pseudoephedrine to get through, but too small for the polymers. The latter technique will require quite some tweaking of the inner and outer solvent mixtures, pressure, pH, temperature and soluble additives, but after that is done it will do all the work by itself. Maybe high-pressure reverse osmosis (don't ask) could be used too?


auntyjack

  • Guest
this is interesting
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2004, 10:30:00 AM »
there's a thread from 3 years ago called "Purification of pills the natural way

Post 248616 (missing)

(crystal_drone: "Purification of pills the natural way", Stimulants)
"  that talks about using pig intestine to extract pseudo...


CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
bee careful, in nazi states
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2004, 12:03:00 PM »

dwarfer

  • Guest
tyvek and condoms
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2004, 08:02:00 PM »

Post 176975 (missing)

(dwarfer: "Re: The Liquid Gelcaps", Stimulants)

and a whole bunch on tyvek investigated this, to at least a degree.

Tyvek seems to work better because it has the strength to
resist the osmotic pressure that develops.

however, it passes some plastigoop, although several
methods to deal with that have been developed since..


Osmium

  • Guest
> Tyvek seems to work better because it has
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2004, 04:18:00 AM »
> Tyvek seems to work better because it has the strength to
> resist the osmotic pressure that develops.

Yeah, those MPa of osmotic pressure are real killers.


auntyjack

  • Guest
question for membrane heads
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2004, 10:35:00 AM »
is using two intestines instead of one just a plain stupid idea or what?


L42L

  • Guest
got CO2?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2004, 01:57:00 PM »
I wonder how a supercritical CO2 extraction would behave in this situation.

wareami

  • Guest
polyvinyl acetate
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2004, 03:30:00 PM »
Kollicoat SR 30D
Introduction


The most widely used aqueous polymer dispersions for sustained-release coating applications are either ethylcellulose-based (Aquacoat ECD, Surelease) or acrylate-based (Eudragit NE30D and others) products. Because of ethylcellulose's relatively high glass-transition temperature (Tg) and pseudolatex nature, ethylcellulose aqueous dispersions require adequate plasticization, with the end product needing further curing steps. Although Eudragit products are true latex with low Tg_s, particle coalescence at room temperature is still slow and incomplete, necessitating accelerated curing conditions and/or the incorporation of water-soluble additives. Upon aging, an endogenous surfactant (nonoxynol 100) of Eudragit NE30D was recently found to be prone to gradual precipitation from the cast-free film, thereby creating pores in the film and potentially affecting product dissolution.

Recently, Kollicoat SR 30D, an aqueous dispersion composed of 27% polyvinyl acetate (PVAc), 2.5% povidone, and 0.3% sodium lauryl sulfate, was introduced by BASF AG (Ludwigshafen, Germany). With adequate plasticizing, the formed PVAc film has been shown to possess unique physical and mechanical properties such as enormous flexibility, rendering the film-coated pellets compressible without rupture. Additionally, PVAc-based matrix and film-coated products were demonstrated to release drugs in a pH-independent fashion. An added advantage in taste-masking formulations has also been claimed when this material is used in the presence of soluble and/or swellable pore formers.

Although ample data have been published or presented on coated beads produced by extrusion, limited information is available on the performance of Kollicoat SR 30D-coated nonpareil systems involving aqueous layering technology. It was therefore the purpose of this study to examine, in detail, the effects of coating level, plasticizer type, and curing conditions on drug release kinetics from such nonpareil systems. Mathematical treatment and modeling of dissolution data were also attempted using a model developed for nonpareil systems that takes into consideration the bead volume change due to swelling in aqueous medium.

See

PharmSciTech

(http://www.aapspharmscitech.org/view.asp?art=pt030215&pdf=yes#ref2) for full document


foxy2

  • Guest
Time release pills are the best.
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2004, 05:22:00 PM »
Time release pills are the best.  Who wants to take their medicine more than once every 12 hours?

Thank Jesus for Kollicoat.

CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
spiritual creaminess and kollicoat
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2004, 07:27:00 PM »
aside from the troubles to some bees, doesn't this kollicoat goo sound pretty fun?

shouldn't we bee coating our bodies with kollicoat?


Prepuce

  • Guest
Dreamt of column chromotagraphy
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2004, 07:53:00 PM »
SWIP says he dreamt of making a sorry attempt at (wet) column chromotography. An immediate problem stopped him cold, and the books he has don't address the issue: How to determine the position of the layer you want when it has no color? Adding a dye would be defeating the purpose. It occurred to him to check with a UV lamp, but that  failed to reveal a usefull difference.

How do chemists deal with this?

PP

wareami

  • Guest
Shedding light...and other matter!
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2004, 08:07:00 PM »
Prepuce: Since this area of research and development has gotten to the point of such sophistication, maybe a thread detailing the processes of chromatography as they could be used here would bee in order.
These newer compounds are forcing bees to sink or swimn and those without any nonmenclature are sure to drown.
Those bees like yourself that are exploring these new areas of study might serve as a bouy for the rest getting their feet wet....
Just a thought!
Start a thread and I'll participate with what I'm able to uncover and contribute!
Rhodium and others have more extensive knowledge on the subject and I'm sure we'll all be UP to snuff in know time :)


Osmium

  • Guest
> How do chemists deal with this?
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2004, 01:18:00 AM »
> How do chemists deal with this?

They acquire a box with 20-50 or so screw top glasses, and start taking fractions, filling each glass with some of the eluating solvent mixture.
The glass contents are then tested by TLC or other means, fractions containing the same substances are pooled, and then the rotovap is used to remove the solvent.


JUMPER

  • Guest
I'm drowning Help!
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2004, 09:38:00 PM »
I'm definitely in the same boat as wareami with Chem stuff, in fact worse!  What are some good key words for searching the Hive or Rhodium for info on these more advanced methods?
   I was told that "THEY" are using oxylated acetates to break down the chain of these copolymers and control them partially. My bud told me to go through my car paint shit for them.
   This is way above JUMPER's head and needs info because he has lots of isocyanates which can't be good and then some converters with Methoxypropyl acetate 108-65-6, Methoxybutyl acetate 4435-53-4, and Cyclohexanone 108-94-1.
   Also Converter with N-Butyl Acetate 123-86-4, N-Butyl Alcohol 71-36-3, and Nitrocellulose 9004-70-0.
   My friend knows the auto paint I use is also made by company he works for (the Parrot). I feel he is having fun with my lack of chemistry, and thus is not getting specific in which chems. Or maybe is telling me and JUMPER is to dumb to differentiate.
   He also spoke of me not forgetting that gluteraldehyde and formaldehyde is used in these paints and can be used as surfactants in breaking chains or helping proteins transfer.
   Over my head and over my head and over my head. FUCK!!  If this helps any chemist out good but please explain it to me also.
   Will keep trying to bleed my friend of inside knowledge that I have no clue in how to understand or interprete yet. Hopefully it will help the Hive in some way with the more Chemically inclined minds of the hive!

   Antyjack you can rag away on JUMPER!! He was just frustrated not understanding the info given and can take a beating almost anytime, since he sure does dish the shit out on his own. Not sure why he got a pussy for a day!!   ;D  ;D  ;D

Glasurit is great paint for auto's!!  Made in Germany by GmbH for BASF. GmbH also makes Standox,BMW and Mercedes shit,and a lot of others.

   Why is he stressing the aldehydes to me!


foxy2

  • Guest
What are some good key words for searching the
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2004, 10:33:00 PM »
What are some good key words for searching the Hive

"The Full Turps Cure"

How swif would do it.

3 hot mineral spirits soaks/boils (at least 1 hour each or sit overnight)
3 hot xylene soaks/boils (smell problem here)
3 dry acetone soaks

Decanting is adequate between each soak.  Solvents can bee burned when starting a barbecue grill, easy disposal but I wouldn't eat from that batch of charcol ;D

Extract 3 times with dry Isopropyl Alcohol(its the most selective alcohol, avoid methanol), evaporate and acetone crash.  I haven't heard of an adulterant that beats this procedure if done rigorously.  Its alot of work, but it pays off.

I'll do the search for you.

Post 337420 (missing)

(geezmeister: "Extraction Technique: The Full Turps Cure", Stimulants)



JUMPER

  • Guest
Not quite what I meant!
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2004, 11:32:00 PM »
I don't think you understood what I meant.  Read wareami's post about four threads back and then mine again. Thanks anyways!


auntyjack

  • Guest
wareami, do it up (as they say)
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2004, 07:55:00 AM »
hey prepuce, could you do a write up of whay you did?...that would be interesting...
i know swij is fairly new to this chemistry business but he believes he can deal with aparatus in general, better than he can deal with theories of chemical interaction making flash chromatography look rather apealing...especially since he coincidentally had one of these collumns filled with sand in the lab when rhodium mentioned the subject...(he uses the collumn as a sand filter)

...wareami, yes please start a thread on this subject
                                
                                        have fun,
                                                 aunty jack


Prepuce

  • Guest
A column chromatography thread is a good idea
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2004, 09:23:00 PM »
Ware,

SWIP would love to see a thread on column chromotagraphy, but thinks he would be the wrong person to lead it. Although he has gained some marginal level of experience as a cook in general, he fears he would accomplish little more than looking foolish if he began expounding on his pourly founded knowledge of chromotography. Add to that the fact that his partipation in this forum is necessarily sporadic.

SWIP would be very happy to partipate in such research if it were led by someone with better qualifications than himself, however.

And Ware, SWIP is flattered that you made the suggestion. In spite of his protests, if noone else speaks up you must know that SWIP isn't going to sit back and forget the whole thing. He'll keep trying, and who knows? He might just stumble on to something worth posting about!

PP

P.S. Ah, what the hell. SWIP did run across a reference recently that suggested the separation of layer problem is often solved by the addition of certain dyes. The reference didn't go into much detail and SWIP doesn't have much of a handle on how that might work, but he will be looking into it.

auntyjack

  • Guest
allright then.......
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2004, 11:11:00 AM »

JUMPER

  • Guest
Ha Ha Ha!
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2004, 06:01:00 PM »

stereoIsomer

  • Guest
I'm still advocating Bacteria - > dope
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2004, 01:44:00 PM »

UncleFester

  • Guest
straight headed people produce readable text
« Reply #39 on: February 29, 2004, 07:25:00 PM »
I like a buzz as much as the next person, but there was little I could pull from the narrative as to the special properties of this new additive family...I've seen swelling, free base absorbing crap in the new ephedrine pills(see Pill Fuckers at it Again), but I would like clear narrative with some direction on a post so I can follow the drift. I'm just a casual reader, ya know?? I just want to keep up with the news, OK? On the topic of ferric chloride to whack polymers, my experience with playing with the substance makes a LOT of brownish precipitate fall out of solution as it eats polymer...how does that effect yield?? These observations are on polyacrylate polymers used to coagulate floating metal particles as part of an electroplating waste treatment system, but the observation is relevant to the topic. This thread needs tighter narrative from the authors because as is it is almost unreadable.

JUMPER

  • Guest
WWW.BASF.COM
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2004, 01:39:00 PM »
The last line of my original post tells where to go and how to get there. There is way to much information on Kollicoat "Meth Acrylic Acid" Copolymer for one to try to write here. As you can see you wouldn't want me writing it any way, since my mind is fried when I get of work. I was simply hitting highlights for people to see it was worth looking into and it's what were dealing with.
   Check it out though!


UncleFester

  • Guest
applications
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2004, 09:06:00 PM »
I didn't check out the BASF link, but the working points are.... can the polymer be whacked with ferric chloride when the individual monomers want to suck up free base, and if they retain their free base sucking character, does whacking the polymer then cause huge loss of yield on extraction?? I have heard about polymers which will extratact along with the product, but they would have to be amines to get through gassing, etc.... to suck up and refuse to release the ephedrine or pseudo to solvent extraction is a new phenomenon to me, and I'm pretty sure it works on the monomer level. Just speculation on this subject, but it is worth chewing on. I note that your last post was tightly written, so my apologies for being harsh. I have come to the conclusion that all these pills are dinosaurs since several states are now requiring ID to buy.

foxy2

  • Guest
I think these can probably bee washed clean.
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2004, 02:51:00 AM »
I think these can probably bee washed clean.  Its tough to say.  Maybee a simplified pill wash followed by steam distillation is the way of the future.


gluecifer69

  • Guest
Wareami has discussed steam dist
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2004, 05:48:00 AM »

Post 492786

(wareami: "Drastic Plastic", Stimulants)
  Here is the link to the thread.  Geez and Ware both describe the new gakk in detail.


CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
has any bee tried capilary action?
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2004, 06:32:00 AM »
i should try it, but don't have stock. anybee try hanging a blotter or paper towel into a pan of dry alcohol solution of pills? it sounds way too easy to me, too, but possibly the 'e' part will rise up to a certain band along the paper, which can bee cut free and redissolved, etc.

wareami

  • Guest
Foxy2 proposal...
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2004, 07:06:00 AM »
is the most likely route to exposing and eliminating the gaak from the picture.
However, there are not very many successes reported on prior attempts at distiling pillmass on the frontside cleaning.
Ibee knew this frontside distilling approach needed some refinement from all others unsuccessful accounts.
Many things were missing from the big picture and other bees just flat out giving UP on distilling pills lent an heir of impossibility/discouragement to this procedure.
If ya want to get your feet wet, in that dark light, there's only one thing to do. Jump in both feet first! The worst that can happen is someone with a dogged determination to make it work might light the way and expose the critical points where all others failed and create work-arounds from there.
Lack of a chemistry background may hinder, discourage and slow processes....but when there is no better way to fall back on, you do what you have to do to succeed! If that requires 3 more months of study and education followed by trial and error hands on application....IbeeWare's AWE-Ready Signed UP!
I'm not convinced that an easy work-around will defeat this new gaak so the DO-Bees need to get cracking the books and from there start getting there hands dirty.
Bees have a wealth of resources here and the most knowledgable contributors, skilled in these areas, will gladly help those doing their homework and asking the right questions!
I'll bee damned if some GAAK is gonna close down "Ibee HIGH".
Look back over the last few years at some of the nasties bees have overcum. It's truely mindboggling, with all things considered, how bees made it this far!

•Shall I refuse my dinner because I do not fully understand the process of digestion?
--Oliver Heaviside (1850-1925) English physicist

•Science is facts; just as houses are made of stone, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house, and a collection of facts is not necessarily science.
--Jules Henri Poincaré (1854-1912) French mathematician.







gluecifer69

  • Guest
Great morale booster Ware
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2004, 07:09:00 AM »
Great post Wareami!  Swim totally agrees with ya. 

My question is does this gakk affect the birchers among us?


wareami

  • Guest
Sea What I Mean???
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2004, 07:10:00 AM »
Hey Chuck-E Spudwrench ;D
That is fuckin brilliant!
Can we say "Separation Phase Chromatography"?
Good on ya bro!
Who aint got sissors and papertowels?



CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
they're toying with you
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2004, 08:15:00 AM »
ah, wareami

biz talked that one up 4 years ago. but, it don't matter.
the pill fuckers are holding a carrot on a stick, watching the wanna-bees jump thru hoops...hoops that often get people in trouble.
by the time everyone has bought the new exotic solvents or toilet paper of centrifuge, psuedo ephidrine will bee taken off the otc market entirely.

meanwhile, i sense "they" are having a good laugh, and even buying stock in the cures to come.

should simple bees learn the techniques required to clean the latest gakks, they may as well beecome chemists and have real labs and make good drugs.

getting off a train bound for hell isn't the same as quitting, to any that are considering abandoning the ride

wareami

  • Guest
DeFeetists.....
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2004, 09:13:00 AM »
Biz...I agree with what you say about jumping through hoops!
While I'm not sure about the snaring bees "set-up" part, I do know that the fuckerz are laughing hysterically at bees until somebee forces them back to their multi-billion dollar drawing board as a line of defense counterattack because a bunch of chemhack bees develope Gaak foilers in response to their adulterants/denaturants!

Look at the past gaaks that have hit recently! Excluding the very newest!
Bees have stayed one step behind each and every one but managed to provide relief. However fleeting time-wise.
As time goes on....bees are refining their knowledgebase and skills in the art!
This is a continuing education class! All the prerequisites needed for one success are stepping stones to moving on to more sophisticated methods and possibly even a shift away from pills all together.
If bees don't take advantage of what they learn from pill extraction, they might as well hang up the labcoat now!
Bees may not have noticed, but Ibee's main source of satisfaction doesn't revolve solely around the ability to cook.
Ibee only specialized in pill extraction because he saw it was the area that required the most attention at the time.
He could write a 1000page book on what he learned in that process that otherwise would have been a blank page 2 years ago!
Imagination and creativity make for some Awesomely strange  but fantastic bedfellows :P
Headroom for growth is a must.
If it takes a grow-yer-own fuckin E-Bush or bucket yeast farming as an alternative to pills...then so bee it!
Pills are not the only resource and bees are beeing coralled and herded toward the mentality and disciplines necessary for what is becoming a reality if they want to keep UP!
Those bees with weak stomaches need not apply. They won't succeed without the vision to conceptualize the rodes to success!
Willing minds that have no fear of adaptating to change will dictate a set course to follow for those UP to the challenge.
Putting those set courses of action in plain words using ghettochemhack speak and processes that can carried out in any kitchen, OTC is the challenge!
Insurmaountable Odds you might say?
Not if you're challenged by continued education/imagination and a steadfast determination to forge ahead toward success!


CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
yes, of course,but
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2004, 01:21:00 PM »
quite true, my friend, what you say about the educational experience of beating the gakks, and how it can inadvertantly teach you some chemistry.
i should have been more specific in the deefeetist attitude:
its the pills. they suck; getting them sucks; and they're about to suck beeyond beelief; and its true...some bee (prolly wareami) will figure out a way to sort of beat them...but, doesn't it seem like its headed toward beeing a precursor that simply won't bee available anymore? at least, otc? christ, ephedra products are beeing removed from shelves. psueoephedrine is next.

about the time you beat the new gakks, there will bee no pills.
i still applaud your effort, even if you aren't willing to admit, publicly, that the size of a rxn is a factor in the length of reflux needed...

but it feels like time to learn something new .
i actually hate to think of newbees going thru all that effort; breathing all that noxious crap; making all those creepy purchases; trying to stay awake for days making sure the lwr is ok; trying not to tell anyone about it; and finally coming up with something of dubious reward.

ibee makes it sound fun; maybee it is, but EVERY single aspect of that dream has beecome MORE dangerous in recent months. at least, in the u.s.

there's freaking cameras over the matches in grocery stores!
toluene is nearly gone, otc!
if a cop pulls you over for a bad tail light, and finds a pack of pills and a bottle of acetone, you could do hard time!
wallyworld has automated suspicious purchase technology; local police forces have tons of $ to fuck you up; etc, etc.

just thought the young'ns needed to hear another side of this story beefore they wreck their lives.

and i don't mean from the drug, either.
i mean from the attempt.

embezzler

  • Guest
hopefully this doesnt sound too stupid
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2004, 03:25:00 PM »
has anyone tried sending an email to the fda requesting information about what the fuck you are taking for your rhino-congesting ailment, they might even bee obliged to tell you even if they wouldnt advertise the fact. geez i am sure some office headed paper would go a long way.


wareami

  • Guest
CheepTalk....
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2004, 03:54:00 PM »

even if you aren't willing to admit, publicly, that the size of a rxn is a factor in the length of reflux needed...



For that matter, I could never admit privately that the size of the rxn influences the time it takes to fully reduce product and consume the unwanted intermediates produced in that process!
The amount of E being reduced is proportionate to the reactants needed to create HI.
If Ibee is cooking 1 tenth of a gram...he'll still cook for 30hrs minimum!


As for all the inherent dangers and risks beeing somewhat higher, I agree. A bee cumming into this game a year ago had a significant advantage over bees stepping onto the playing field today where OTC aquisition is concerned. It sux, I know! LE wants the playing field leveled and they will level it!
If it weren't for the "young`ns" Ibee wouldn't have invested the time he did in trying to hang onto obtaining feedstock from the easiest available source even though he predicted this would come countless times. Unfortunately...all that invested time could only focus on staying one step behind and left little room for making provisions for the future or the shift would bee seamless and relatively easy. That calculated risk in time investment might seem to most as non-fruitful and if Ibee were facing the donald(trump)...he'd say "Yer Fired" ;D
But now we see the need for a shift and talk is cheep so Ibee's making shifts and his cheeptalk is here to reflect that!
But on the other side of the coin, Ibee aims to prove that if a pill exists on the market....it can be extracted successfully!
"Cheep Cheep"





jsorex

  • Guest
these polymers do degrade by time or by ...
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2004, 05:36:00 PM »
these polymers do degrade by time or by microbiological entities. There must be literature on that. Do you think that braking the polymer would not break the wanted particles? Is it possible that this wouldn't enough measures?


wareami

  • Guest
Analytical chemistry...
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2004, 06:33:00 PM »
At one time all that was necessary to successfully extract pfed was identifying a problem inactive and finding a suitable solvent to disable it or carry it away. Polymer science created some difficult beasts. The processes used in the manufacture of certain pills provided some clues...eg...drymatrix(MCC-HPMC), gelling agents such as solgel and some encapsulators. But the beasts of today are multifunctional hybrid polymers that hinder many approaches to extraction on multiple levels.
Bees aren't afforded an ID today on what those beasts are and this makes identifying difficult!
The most likely way an ID will be obtained is through column separation of the whole lot and then analysizing each component separately to see what it's composed of.
This is just Ibee's assessment of the likely route to take and this ideaology has been hinted at by some chemist bees here in the past!
Thin layer chromatography (TLC) peeked Ibees interest the first he saw it mentioned by rhodium as a means of identifying the quality and purity of the end-result.
Ibee may not be the brightest bee in the alfabet, but redlights started blaring when he saw that post.
The main obstacle in Ibee's mind at that time were the warnings about toxicity of silica as posted by Lugh some time ago. This newest flash chromatography utilizes solid/liquid phase separation which utilizes silica gel as the solid.
Ibee's studying UP on this as I type because it may provide the necessary springboard to better understanding and eventually lead to more effective ways to extraction.
OII gaak got kicked to the curb through the use of jap drier even though bees still don't have an industry name that applies to this gaak.
This newer gaak would be defeated faster if a name can be associated with it and the properties identified!
Slamming solvents at pills is risky because bees don't know how an undentified substance will react!
Bees got lucky last time but it's not a risk Ibee's willing to stake everybees health on everytime!
So a more educated approach seems the best route here rather than gambling and stabbing in the dark!
Is there a huge learning curve here?
You bet ya! But like I said....we have the knowledge here that might cushion the blows some by putting what otherwise might seem overly complicated, into better perspective if bees tap into that knowledgebase intelligently with determination to expand their chemistry skills!
Three years ago, everything on this board looked like rocketscience to The Kidz and that mentalblock carried with it a feeling of insurmountability at every turn....
Until they remembered they could do anything they set their mind to! And that's the Key to success and Go-Getting!
"Let My PeepHole GO" :-[  8)
Yeeeee Haaaaaa!!! ;D  ;)


CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
group hugging allowed in meth forum?
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2004, 07:03:00 PM »
wareami,

sorry about that little ribbing about size mattering.
i'm not that attached to size, having 7, but like to have fun.

but i'm glad as hell that you could allow that the young hopefulls, whom might bee hanging on your everyword, are in for a much more difficult challange than we sufffered, on all fronts.

the rxn is a cake walk. the extraction and work-up requires more knowledge and organization, but is also easy.
ratios set in stone can bee unset with sucess; temps too; and time; and equipment...all of it.

until now.
now, buying less than 3 grams of suda-fed in the u.s. typicly costs $8 or more, and you have to feel like a criminal to get it, and with extraordinary luck, you may get 1/2 the precursor out, but highly unlikely. if you do, you've probably brought out the villians.
post rxn, again, lucky to get half.
and that was yesterday

this isn't bad news as much as factual reporting


gluecifer69

  • Guest
what about behind the counter pillz
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2004, 07:21:00 PM »
Swim has heard rumors for the last three yearz that the behind the counter sixties would be eliminated.  Much to swim's surprise they haven't been changed at since then.  These pillz are 60's I'm talking about and I'm sure everyone else is aware of them.  Swim can cross a couple of state borders and get them for 12.00/36 count or 125/flat.  Of course there will probably be a stop put to them as well.

Swim sees this as a clandestine chemist vs. the pharmacuetal chemist.   The only difference should be equip.  BTW how much is a flash chromotography column? 8)


foxy2

  • Guest
I'm sure this is the denatureing scheme your...
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2004, 09:19:00 PM »
I'm sure this is the denatureing scheme your dealing with.


{0034} In the instant invention a preferred combination inhibitor may be an amino polymer or the corresponding neutralized salt form of the amino polymer. The amino polymer, in both the amine and neutralized salt forms, has a similar solubility profile to the corresponding form of many sympathomimetic amines, making it very difficult to separate the amine from a composition containing an amino polymer. Additionally, the amino polymer inhibits the chemical conversion of sympathomimetic amines to other pharmacologically active compounds. The prior art teaches the use of unneutralized amino polymers as coating agents for sympathomimetic amines (or other pharmacologically active agents). In such references the purpose of the uneutralized amino polymer in the composition is to prevent the active ingredient (e.g., a sympathetic amine) from dissolving in the mouth and creating an undesirable taste. Thus, the unneutralized amino polymer is used in a manner specifically intended to modify the release of the coated active agent in water as compared to the uncoated active ingredient. In the instant invention the use of the unneutralized (and/or neutralized) amino polymer is specifically designed to have no significant effect on the release of the active ingredient in water as compared to the same formulation without the amino polymer.

{0035} One example of an amino polymer contemplated in this invention is a copolymer of methyl methacrylate, butyl methacrylate and dimethylaminoethyl methacrylate, also known as aminoalkyl methacrylate copolymer E, JP. A preferred copolymer of methyl methacrylate, butyl methacrylate and dimethylaminoethyl methacrylate is Eudragit-E.RTM. which is available from Rohm America, Somerset, N.J. In the instant invention the amino polymer can be from about 0% to about 100% in the neutralized salt form. In a preferred embodiment the amino polymer is from about 50% to about 100% in the neutralized salt form. More preferably, the amino polymer is from about 70% to about 100% in the neutralized salt form and most preferably it is from about 85% to about 98% in the neutralized salt form. The neutralized form of the amino polymer in the instant invention can be a salt of a strong or a weak acid. Examples of strong acids used in the preparation of a neutralized amino polymer are hydrochloric, sulfuric, nitric and phosphoric acids. Weak acids contemplated in the preparation of the neutralized amino polymer include citric, ascorbic and acetic acids. An example of a preferred form of a neutralized amino polymer is the hydrochloric acid salt form of the amino polymer. The hydrochloride salt of the amino polymer is prepared by suspending the free base in distilled water and adding hydrochloric acid. The suspension may be warmed and mixed until the solution is complete. The resultant thick, viscous solution is then dried to produce a clear, brittle film. The film is milled to produce a powder suitable for incorporation into a tablet powder blend.




http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220020082304%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20020082304&RS=DN/20020082304






wareami

  • Guest
Excellent find Foxy...
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2004, 10:14:00 AM »
Thanx bro!
This is in fact precisely what bees are dealing with and have been dealing with since OII gaak. Ibee always suspected that methyl methacrylate was the root gaak but had no way to identify it.
Anybee ever see that listed on the box?
Now...anybee see the correlation between the disclosure of MCC and HPMC equalling drymatrix thereby creating an ID and it's eventual downfall?
No wonder they won't list these newer co-polymers.
Who the fuck do I sue for that little non-disclosure? Ehhhh???
For all the lack of chemistry knowledge however, bees have been able to determine the properties of that OII gaak denaturant and learned how to disable it.
Ibee never knew the correct terminology but bees will recall his assessment of what occurred when japan drier and tetra were used followed by simple acetone rinses.
He claimed it needed to be disabled or deactivated before it could be removed. He was right! Now bees can see the association between what actually takes place and how Ibee described it with his lack of terminology skills.
It needs to be brought out of it's activated state(neutralized salt form) or disabled before it will be recieved by a solvent that doesn't accept pfed readily.
This makes perfect sense now that it is in black and white.
Other bees had success with the use of boiling solvents but Ibee always found that the highest obtained without changing the properties of pfed were with the use of naphthenic salts in the presence of tetrachloroethylene and petroleum distillate. This substance could then be readily removed by employing acetone rinses.
Look at the list of chemicals that comprise this substance...
•methyl methacrylate
•butyl methacrylate
•dimethylaminoethyl methacrylate
They named this a co-polymer.
It's name? aminoalkyl methacrylate copolymer E, JP
AKA....Eudragit-E.RTM
Okay....Ibee named it a hybrid multifunctional polymer and he wasn't far off because of the additional processes applied to this copolymer with the use of Acids and other conditions to tweek it's properties prior to going to the presses!
For guesswork, I'd say that bees were batting 1000 concerning this substance and I still stand behind the facts that support it beeing a cold day in hell before they empoy a substance in pills that bee will not find a work-around for!
We bees might bee considered to bee dumb as a box of rocks at times, but translated, that dumbness into stubborness and determination equals success for the collective more times than not, however fleeting those successes might bee!
Ibee has some studying to do....so if ya'll will excuse us for this round... ;)


UncleFester

  • Guest
not defeatists
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2004, 04:26:00 PM »
The sole advantage of those OTC ephedrine or sudo pills is that they can be bought OTC without leaving a trail, and then one has to procure the iodine, red P, hypo acid or ammonia and Li to reduce them with some other hardware store ingredients. If extracting them is a constant evolution of techniques which last for a few months then there are many other routes which pose no more risk and can be scaled up for real production of the good d,l meth I used to make. For example starting with toluene through the benzaldehyde routes, starting with cumene through the hydratropic aldehyde routes, or starting with ethylbenzene through the phenylacetic acid routes. If the bottom line is you are going to have to show ID to buy sudo, large purchases will be recorded, and so these other routes offer much more yeild with a lot less wondering what is in the product I buy and how to deal with it. d,l meth is far preferable to the d meth anyway, as the buzz and adventures one can have while buzzed are far preferable. This pill fucking is becoming such an evolving topic that I don't think I can write on the topic anymore because the leadtime and the shelf life of the books are too long.

wareami

  • Guest
Agreed...
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2004, 07:22:00 PM »
UncleFester: I wholeheartedly agree with everything you say above as I also agree with Chuck-E and many others facing these dilemas concerning OTC pills.
Ibee might finally be at a stage to advance toward the more advanced other synths but had he just joined this crusade of OTC kitchen chemistry....he'd not even attempt any of what was being proposed if somebee wasn't contributing methods of aquistion from the easiest available source.
That source being OTC pfed and ephedrine.

Even if it were a one time shot while following a nano rxn write-up, I'd hope that the information the elder bees are providing would spell success for that newbee.
It is sooooo tempting right now to abandon pills all together and give up on them as a high risk endeavor considering the stricter crackdowns on aquistion at the point of sale!
And Ibee may just be fighting a losing battle in wanting to provide newbees with a chance at something they've never thought could be accomplished.
I know Ibee never thought he had it in him and that was at a time when water extractions of OTC pills worked. The rxn was the biggest hurdle for him.
The hardest parts for him at the time was in understanding aquisition of the precursors (RP and I2)and their extraction.
Now bees have a sure fire failsafe in rxn with the LWR but the pristeen cleanliness of the feedstock is shakey at best and that compromises success!
Neverending battles on this front.
These newer complications may teach the newbees some more advanced processes and act as a springboard toward the more advanced synthing that is described in your book as well as discussed here!
Ibee is ready to move on....but he hates like hell the thought of leaving any bee beehind especially the ones that have been battling with this and haven't tasted success for all the hardest efforts put forth!
Ibee may stay behind on the learning processes....he's always been a little slow an-E-ways.... ;D
It just sux thinking that any bee would be left behind because all the bees started dropping out on the only source some may have available!
I'd hate to think ware Ibee'd bee if ya'll gave up on him after his third month beeing here!
I just can't see it!
The newbees need to use their imagination on the aquisition front if they don't relish showing ID.
There are still some last resort places that won't require an ID...
Some places still provide more bang fer yer buck and they will carry thelast of the mohicans with the least gaaks and expiration dates prior to 2006!
Ibee found one and walked out with 10boxes 24ct sixties in one buy! They have 80 more boxes ibee has his sights on all for $1 a peace! exp 09/04 and 09/05!
It ain't over til the.....well let's just hope there's enough d stuff left to GO around and we'll have none of that fat lady stuff! ;)  8)  :P


Scottydog

  • Guest
What's next?
« Reply #61 on: March 07, 2004, 11:12:00 AM »
"A preferred copolymer of methyl methacrylate, butyl methacrylate and dimethylaminoethyl methacrylate is Eudragit-E.RTM."

Thanks for the specifics on the GASSING GAKK foxy2.  :)

Now that this "supposed" super gakk has been defeated, what's next? I certainly hope THEY didn't spend a small fortune on this now worthless patent/invention.  ;D

Maybee the next assault will bee what Wareami was discussing previously quite some time ago, the type of pseudoephedrine that leads to an overall inactive meth end product? Or will it even convert to meth?

What was it, the chirally (-) pseudoephedrine?  :(


WmPerry

  • Guest
anti alarm thought
« Reply #62 on: March 08, 2004, 01:03:00 AM »
Not even two whole cents from me,just a pennys observation, Look at the shelf space for this shit! pseud must bee the 3rd most popular over the counter drug in america-variations on the theme take up far more space than all the lone analgesics put together(asprin,tylenol,motrin, et al), and more space than the various digestive prods also (tums to laxaatives).
    It's never going off the otc market. it may be irreplacable,save maybe by actual amphetamines. MIllions of angry people with sinus headaches is sure to be an uneeded incentive considering the enormous power and greed of the pharm cos. "you want us to give up how much? money? so youo can keep some chick named charlene in iowa from makin a gram of speed!?!"
  Maybe i underestimate the public spiritedness of multinational pharmaeutical companies, and maybe the DEA actually has an iota of power in the circles where things get done. But thats not my read of it.
   money and politics aside, has anybody read th ingredients on other things lately? the shelf infront of my toilet is full of haircare prods and salves and all kinds of otc pharms and every single one of the fuckers has the same ingerdients except on or two.
really, go look. My guess is that if you worked up a selection of non-pseud pharms, yyou would find the very same gakks, and that the majority of them are there for shelf life, pilling machine efficacy, bulk, cosmetics, release rates, etc.
   Sure they're out to get us, but man they must be fucking idiots, cause for sure they could mess up match strikers way easier than a billions of dollars pseud industry. SHHH! dont tell them that! but really they could outlaw matches easier than pseud, after all most people prefer lighters anyway.
  Its not pretty , but thats my penny and i hope i'm not just talkin outta my ass.
As always, thanks everyone for your knowledge

CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
how do you know charlene?
« Reply #63 on: March 08, 2004, 07:26:00 AM »
funny you mention match strikers.
they too are going down, and fast.

and the psuedoephedrine, as decongestant, actually has several replacements; argueably better ones, like oxymetazoline,which is even more profitable. i think it sells for about a dollar/mg otc in u.s.

i can't agree that most of the additives are in the pills for benign reasons. for one thing, they didn't use to have most of them. allthough, a pill containing 30 mgs of a medicine is going to need something to fluff it up to a manageable size.
last i checked,  a 30mg. pill weighed about 150mgs.

WmPerry

  • Guest
Charlene? She sold all my cd's & faked a break-in.
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2004, 12:31:00 AM »
I'm a heavy smoker w/a deviated septum- oxymetazoline has got awfull bounce-back and over dosage probs-if i go too heavy on it, it feels likejumping nerves in my nose and it runs literally like a leaky faucet- a steady stream of water, yuck..Not scientific but it affects my wife the same way.

  Iv'e seen the patent pdfs at rhodium's so i know they're fiddlin w/pseud to bollox us up, but not with any thing like the focus of intent so often presumed in these circles. If the inactive is in your ibuprofen too, then its not in your pseud in order to fuck meth production.

   the more i think about it, the more ithink they hardly care at all, or they are WAY stupider than even we thought. Pseud is the hardest part of the rp/i/e method to corrupt into unusability- it has to be 'get-to-able' finally, or its useless. Not so, the other 2. Any Bee here could think of a way in half an hour to make the casual home brewer obsolete in america within 6 months.

   I just did while writing this, and i'm a flat -out chem dumb-ass. If makin iodine crystals was as hard as clean pseud. 95% of current rxns would newver happen- cause people (like me) are easily daunted, or plain lazy.

   And it would be childs play to make tincture hard to work with. Ive said too much already-but you can figger a couple ways out too.

  Which leaves us here: Am i so much smarter than every single person in drug enforcment and other interested parties(industry, fda, etc) that i  could do in half an hour what they still cant see to do?

 Not Effing likely. We are left to draw any # of even more paranoid conclusions then as to the purpose of intentionally futile efforts to hamper meth via pseud-fucking. Misdirection is a very basic psy-ops tool.

  Ha! Even i'm starting to feel i'm off the deep end here., I know i'm over my head. A little voice says, "but maybe not", though.

    Thanks for the knowlege, all.

   you row for a while, i'll bail

CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
decongestant bounce-back factor?
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2004, 08:52:00 AM »
wm.p;

swim also has some chronic congestion problems which had led him to psuedoephedrine long beefore he had any idea that it was a precursor. i'm beecame quite aware of that bounce back factor early on...like the label says, you don't want to use the stuff for more than 3 days in a row, or you'll end up way more congested than ever.

my question (apologies for slipping this in, slightly off topic):
have you found oxymetazoline to bee more likely to cause this problem than psuedo-e?

and, i wonder, if taking meth sort of counts as having taken a decongestant, as far as having that insidious reversal of the decongestant effect?

like, if a bee is having congestion, and also beeing a tweeker,will the legal decongestants cause that bounce-back much sooner?

SHORTY

  • Guest
Pseudoephedrine in a spray?
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2004, 11:57:00 AM »
I thought only the spray type decongestants were the ones that should only be used for 3 consectutive days.  I have never seen pseudoephedrine in the spray type decongestants.

Anyways heres an unusual comparison of the 2 you guys are discussing. It seems that pseudo has more uses than just a cold or allergy medicine.  I also read that divers use it as well.

A double-blind comparison between oral pseudoephedrine and topical oxymetazoline in the prevention of barotrauma during air travel.

Jones JS, Sheffield W, White LJ, Bloom MA.

Department of Emergency Medicine, Butterworth Hospital, Grand Rapids, MI, USA.

To determine the efficacy of two decongestants (oral pseudoephedrine versus topical oxymetazoline) in the prevention of middle ear barotrauma during air travel, 150 adult volunteers with a history of ear pain during air travel were entered into a randomized, double-blind study conducted at two commercial airports. Each subject received 120 mg pseudoephedrine, oxymetazoline hydrochloride (0.05%), or a double placebo (capsule and nasal spray) administered 30 minutes before flight departure. After arrival at their final destinations, volunteers were asked to complete a questionnaire and return it by mail to investigators. Questions included the intensity and duration of otologic symptoms experienced while flying and possible drug side effects. A total of 124 subjects completed the study; 41 received 120 mg of pseudoephedrine, 42 received oxymetazoline nasal spray, and 41 received a double placebo (capsule and nasal spray). The three treatment groups were similar with regard to age, sex, medical history, and flight profile. Symptoms of barotrauma were reported by 34% of those receiving pseudoephedrine versus 71% of the control group, for a relative risk reduction of 52% (95% confidence interval [CI] 33% to 71%). In contrast, 64% of the oxymetazoline group reported symptoms of barotrauma, for a relative risk reduction of 10% (95% CI, 3% to 17%). These results suggest that treatment with 120 mg pseudoephedrine at least 30 minutes before flying appears to decrease the incidence of barotrauma. Oxymetazoline nasal spray is little more effective than placebo in reducing ear pain and discomfort associated with changing ambient pressures.



Rhodium

  • Guest
Apples & Oranges
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2004, 01:50:00 PM »
Oxymetazoline nasal spray is little more effective than placebo in reducing ear pain

Just like smearing liniment on your scalp is a little more effective than placebo against headache.

Naturally a systemic decongestant like pseudoephedrine will be more effective throughout the otorhinolaryngological (ear-nose-throat) regions than a locally applied nose spray.

That article gets a C- in study design from me if they really wanted to compare equivalent medications rather than advertise for pseudoephedrine.


CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
i'd say
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2004, 05:46:00 PM »
120mg of psuedoephedrine is a whomping dose, at least for a temporary decongestant effect. i couldn't tell what the dose of the oxy-m was. did it mean 0.05% of 120 mgs?

anyway, psuedo ephedrine did use to come in a nasal squirty thing, and in fact, i used to buy the stuff for spells of congestion i was prone to. it was very effective, beecause if you couldn't quite breathe thru the nose at night, one little squirt would do the trick, in the closed nostril...and it would do it almost immediately, probably with 5 mgs of the drug, with the water.
a small bottle would last me a year.
as i was very aware of the rebound effect, i clearly wanted to use the minimal effective amount.

suddenly, maybee 5? years ago, i go to buy my annual $3.59 bottle of this otc med, and i can't find it!
i'm a label-reader; fine print only, and don't like to get robbed, etc, so, i had to look thru this mountain of other options that appeared on the shelfs to take the place of this stuff i used to use.

i honestly had no idea about the meth connection. crystal of my youth didn't start w/ psuedo-e.

i didn't want to switch to the little red pills, beecause i only needed the stuff at night, and i didn't want to wait for 1/2 hour to get back to sleep; nor did i feel that i needed the minimum amt...the 30 mgs.

i remember beeing utterly baffled by the weird list of crap in the new form of my deongestant.
and, by the existance of the same product (same name; same company, etc) except the psuedoephedrine had been replaced by oxymetazoline.

i finally had to get the new sray, beecause of the absurdity of the pill delivery limits, and found it acceptable. i still use it when necessary, seems to work fine;  costs $3.59, and so on.

but the mystery of the missing nasal spray psuedoephedrine , is what brought me here, after alot of googling.
the spray was gack-less, as such inactives would counter the absorbtion.

fucking war on drugs led an innocent guy with a stuffy nose straight to here.

apologies for historical anecdote, but it deserved a mention, and is true. in fact, in my innocent, yet forced switch to  oxymetazoline, which is effective, i couldn't fathom why the psuedo ephedrine was still on the otc market at all, if it was so much trouble.

tonight, while hearing (again) on the news, how obese americans are, it seemed obvious that part of the corresponding rise in meth use, is people trying to suppress their appetites. that's what amphetamines were about, back when they were common as prozac.
now, its unlikely to get pharmeceutical help for the # one health problem in america: fat-pig syndrome. the fen/phen is gone; ephedra is pulled; etc.

i don't know why i forgot that vain and obese fat people desperately want to bee un-fat. they don't even want to get high.

its easy to see how all of these trends fit together for maximum $ flowage.

but how to change it?


WmPerry

  • Guest
bounce back & cross tolerance
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2004, 06:01:00 PM »
Oxymetazoline's bounce back is very bad- itmakes pseud's undetectable by comparison- as fer decogestant use vis a vis meth use, the only time i will use a sprayer anymore is to upen a passage to snort with, which must be really bad practice.

  However, even the bounce back from a line or 2 of meth isn't as bad as 4 or 5 squirts of aftrin, other peoples mileage may vary.

  one annoying aspect of pseud/amph though is cross tolerance. i can no longer take enough pseud for it to make a dent in congestion. I really need to research how long to stay clean to get my tolerances managable agin. As an indication, on my first dozen failed rxns, iwould end up doing my entire yeild in a couple of hours hoping for some meth, but only getting the pseud back out. Like 1-3 grams of pseud at a go. With nearly zero discernable effect, though maybe i was little angrier at my failure than i woulda been on the natch.

  Benzadrex inhalers work, but can be overly harsh (ie., bleeding causing, its thecamphor &lavender oil does that,maybe) and as they are so similar chemically to amph (iguess propylhexadrine is an amph, just a very unpleasant, paranoid one when i tried it) that cross tolerance is even more in effect.

you bail, I'll row a while

WmPerry

  • Guest
A perfect outcome
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2004, 06:08:00 PM »
fucking war on drugs led an innocent guy with a stuffy nose straight to here

I love that.

CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
you did 3 grams of psuedo e?
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2004, 06:27:00 PM »
holy crud, man. are you sure it wasn't NaCl? (w/ 12 rxn failures, it seemed possible)
that's 100 (30mg)pills!

i've never had the rebound effect w/ oxy-m, but i never use more than i need (which is the incredible advantage of that route of administration, compared to orally, with goo)

but if you did as you say, w/ 3gms, i'll take your experiences in comparing decongestants, with a grain of salt.


WmPerry

  • Guest
its true, my system says 'tilt'
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2004, 09:15:00 PM »
actually,  3grams into rxn, maybe 1.5-2 max out the other end. as i remember i was angry and sleepy enough that i took a nap. THat could be the od symptoms, too. sleepiness imean, i dont  know. But i've been takin massive doses of pseud for 15-20 years-sinuses + spiraling tolerance + personal tendency to double any recomended dose = 6-8 60's as a starter dose, all of this well before my adventures in personal dream manufacture

    But certainly iwould never use myself as an example of correct dosage on anything at all. Everything chem runs out of norm on me. But never in a helpful, $-saving way

I guess this has gotten a little too Couch-like, though, so i'll shut up before i'm told to.
thanks

   btw- you didnt have a shitload of failures? until i listened to geez(&evrybody else) about lwr, i was 90% failure. I've learned: cut a corner=failure. Lose your patience=lose your dream. Interesting lessons to pick up in a place like this, eh?

CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
last one: success IS failure
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2004, 09:52:00 PM »
wm; failure is my middle name, especially in success.
but i'm curious, in a way more relevant to this forum, about your history of psuedoephedrine use (or abuse) and the re-bound effect of decongstants, which is often mentioned right on the package, in small print.

are you saying that you were using '6-8 60 mg pills' for the relief of congestion?
or were you using it for some sort of stim-buzz?
(i'm not the morality police; this flies in the face of my own decongestant history, and i seek data)
i can't imagine that the drug would work at all, as a decongestant, with that sort of use.
in, fact, i'd imagine the opposite, with a hard to piss dick and a rough heart beat.

perhaps a thread on the couch would bee appropriate, to explore the nature of psuedo ephedrine's effects/vs alternates/ and in combo w/ meth, etc.
i'm also curious about freebase psuedo-e as decongestant.
as well as vaso-dilator's connection to appetite suppresion.
from anecdotal offerings of bees, if they have any.

goodnight


ChemoSabe

  • Guest
Benzedrex - Most Fun/effective Inhaler
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2004, 07:10:00 PM »
Swim's buddy makes sure to have a few around when for some reason meth isn't. What is that benzohexedrine anyway?

Can help ease nasty edge after too long of a binge.

Last I looked price on them had skyrocketed.


dwarfer

  • Guest
re-visit the Tyvek (Condom) separation
« Reply #75 on: March 12, 2004, 01:57:00 PM »

Post 488593

(Osmium: "> Tyvek seems to work better because it has", Stimulants)

i said:
> Tyvek seems to work better because it has the strength to
> resist the osmotic pressure that develops.

Osmoid said:
Yeah, those MPa of osmotic pressure are real killers.

I say:

Give it a try, 'Moid.  If you put the salt in a condom, tie off the open end, and put it in water, the osmotic pressure will enlarge the holes (and the whole condom...) and make it essentially unusuable after a few runs.

If you use a condom (and maybe a piggut I don't know..)

consider "backing it up" with Tyvek so that the Tyvek takes the strain.

I think the issue is worth re-visiting.

=============

Bye the way, there are other separation techniques that have not even been mentioned here.


ChemoSabe

  • Guest
Salty Dog Bit the Dust?
« Reply #76 on: March 12, 2004, 08:33:00 PM »
Hey Dworph,

Whatever happened to that old salty dog of yours? Did it ever come to any sort of practical usage for you or did it fully bite the GUPdust?

My own counterpart of your Marvin has been stubbornly using tyvekkian strategies on extraction coming up on 2 years now and he doesn't think it's a regional thing but he at least claims to have had not much sign of most of the problems others commonly reported due to the OII additives. Like your Marvin he often speaks straight out of his posterier but in this case I think there might bee something to his flatulent claims.

How are birches responding to this new acrylic additive anyway?


gluecifer69

  • Guest
Re: How are birches responding to this new...
« Reply #77 on: March 13, 2004, 04:12:00 PM »

How are birches responding to this new acrylic additive anyway?




Swim has posed this exact question only to get no answer, would a birch bee pleez speak up on the issue? :-[




auntyjack

  • Guest
hey dwarfer
« Reply #78 on: March 14, 2004, 08:44:00 AM »
"Bye the way, there are other separation techniques that have not even been mentioned here."
 
...geez mentioned vacuum-assisted steam-distillation...rhodium reckons column chromatography...what techniques are you thinking of there dwarfer....(also, are you tall or do you hunt dwarfs?)


ChemoSabe

  • Guest
Suspicions
« Reply #79 on: March 14, 2004, 10:13:00 AM »
I'm starting to suspect two things.

1) Most birchers have been stopped cold in their tracks by either new tigher controls and surveilence over anhydrous ammonia or by hideous accidents having to do with acquiring it.

2) Dwarfer and Shorty are actually two of the tallest and hugest guys on this whole board.