Kollicoat MAE100P, were fucked!

[JUMPER]

The last line of my original post tells where to go and how to get there. There is way to much information on Kollicoat "Meth Acrylic Acid" Copolymer for one to try to write here. As you can see you wouldn't want me writing it any way, since my mind is fried when I get of work. I was simply hitting highlights for people to see it was worth looking into and it's what were dealing with.
   Check it out though!

[UncleFester]

I didn't check out the BASF link, but the working points are.... can the polymer be whacked with ferric chloride when the individual monomers want to suck up free base, and if they retain their free base sucking character, does whacking the polymer then cause huge loss of yield on extraction?? I have heard about polymers which will extratact along with the product, but they would have to be amines to get through gassing, etc.... to suck up and refuse to release the ephedrine or pseudo to solvent extraction is a new phenomenon to me, and I'm pretty sure it works on the monomer level. Just speculation on this subject, but it is worth chewing on. I note that your last post was tightly written, so my apologies for being harsh. I have come to the conclusion that all these pills are dinosaurs since several states are now requiring ID to buy.

[foxy2]

I think these can probably bee washed clean.  Its tough to say.  Maybee a simplified pill wash followed by steam distillation is the way of the future.

[gluecifer69]

Post 492786

(wareami: "Drastic Plastic", Stimulants)  Here is the link to the thread.  Geez and Ware both describe the new gakk in detail.

[CharlieBigpotato]

i should try it, but don't have stock. anybee try hanging a blotter or paper towel into a pan of dry alcohol solution of pills? it sounds way too easy to me, too, but possibly the 'e' part will rise up to a certain band along the paper, which can bee cut free and redissolved, etc.

[wareami]

is the most likely route to exposing and eliminating the gaak from the picture.
However, there are not very many successes reported on prior attempts at distiling pillmass on the frontside cleaning.
Ibee knew this frontside distilling approach needed some refinement from all others unsuccessful accounts.
Many things were missing from the big picture and other bees just flat out giving UP on distilling pills lent an heir of impossibility/discouragement to this procedure.
If ya want to get your feet wet, in that dark light, there's only one thing to do. Jump in both feet first! The worst that can happen is someone with a dogged determination to make it work might light the way and expose the critical points where all others failed and create work-arounds from there.
Lack of a chemistry background may hinder, discourage and slow processes....but when there is no better way to fall back on, you do what you have to do to succeed! If that requires 3 more months of study and education followed by trial and error hands on application....IbeeWare's AWE-Ready Signed UP!
I'm not convinced that an easy work-around will defeat this new gaak so the DO-Bees need to get cracking the books and from there start getting there hands dirty.
Bees have a wealth of resources here and the most knowledgable contributors, skilled in these areas, will gladly help those doing their homework and asking the right questions!
I'll bee damned if some GAAK is gonna close down "Ibee HIGH".
Look back over the last few years at some of the nasties bees have overcum. It's truely mindboggling, with all things considered, how bees made it this far!

•Shall I refuse my dinner because I do not fully understand the process of digestion?
--Oliver Heaviside (1850-1925) English physicist

•Science is facts; just as houses are made of stone, so is science made of facts; but a pile of stones is not a house, and a collection of facts is not necessarily science.
--Jules Henri Poincaré (1854-1912) French mathematician.

[gluecifer69]

Great post Wareami!  Swim totally agrees with ya. 

My question is does this gakk affect the birchers among us?

[wareami]

Hey Chuck-E Spudwrench
That is fuckin brilliant!
Can we say "Separation Phase Chromatography"?
Good on ya bro!
Who aint got sissors and papertowels?

[CharlieBigpotato]

ah, wareami

biz talked that one up 4 years ago. but, it don't matter.
the pill fuckers are holding a carrot on a stick, watching the wanna-bees jump thru hoops...hoops that often get people in trouble.
by the time everyone has bought the new exotic solvents or toilet paper of centrifuge, psuedo ephidrine will bee taken off the otc market entirely.

meanwhile, i sense "they" are having a good laugh, and even buying stock in the cures to come.

should simple bees learn the techniques required to clean the latest gakks, they may as well beecome chemists and have real labs and make good drugs.

getting off a train bound for hell isn't the same as quitting, to any that are considering abandoning the ride

[wareami]

Biz...I agree with what you say about jumping through hoops!
While I'm not sure about the snaring bees "set-up" part, I do know that the fuckerz are laughing hysterically at bees until somebee forces them back to their multi-billion dollar drawing board as a line of defense counterattack because a bunch of chemhack bees develope Gaak foilers in response to their adulterants/denaturants!

Look at the past gaaks that have hit recently! Excluding the very newest!
Bees have stayed one step behind each and every one but managed to provide relief. However fleeting time-wise.
As time goes on....bees are refining their knowledgebase and skills in the art!
This is a continuing education class! All the prerequisites needed for one success are stepping stones to moving on to more sophisticated methods and possibly even a shift away from pills all together.
If bees don't take advantage of what they learn from pill extraction, they might as well hang up the labcoat now!
Bees may not have noticed, but Ibee's main source of satisfaction doesn't revolve solely around the ability to cook.
Ibee only specialized in pill extraction because he saw it was the area that required the most attention at the time.
He could write a 1000page book on what he learned in that process that otherwise would have been a blank page 2 years ago!
Imagination and creativity make for some Awesomely strange  but fantastic bedfellows
Headroom for growth is a must.
If it takes a grow-yer-own fuckin E-Bush or bucket yeast farming as an alternative to pills...then so bee it!
Pills are not the only resource and bees are beeing coralled and herded toward the mentality and disciplines necessary for what is becoming a reality if they want to keep UP!
Those bees with weak stomaches need not apply. They won't succeed without the vision to conceptualize the rodes to success!
Willing minds that have no fear of adaptating to change will dictate a set course to follow for those UP to the challenge.
Putting those set courses of action in plain words using ghettochemhack speak and processes that can carried out in any kitchen, OTC is the challenge!
Insurmaountable Odds you might say?
Not if you're challenged by continued education/imagination and a steadfast determination to forge ahead toward success!

[CharlieBigpotato]

quite true, my friend, what you say about the educational experience of beating the gakks, and how it can inadvertantly teach you some chemistry.
i should have been more specific in the deefeetist attitude:
its the pills. they suck; getting them sucks; and they're about to suck beeyond beelief; and its true...some bee (prolly wareami) will figure out a way to sort of beat them...but, doesn't it seem like its headed toward beeing a precursor that simply won't bee available anymore? at least, otc? christ, ephedra products are beeing removed from shelves. psueoephedrine is next.

about the time you beat the new gakks, there will bee no pills.
i still applaud your effort, even if you aren't willing to admit, publicly, that the size of a rxn is a factor in the length of reflux needed...

but it feels like time to learn something new .
i actually hate to think of newbees going thru all that effort; breathing all that noxious crap; making all those creepy purchases; trying to stay awake for days making sure the lwr is ok; trying not to tell anyone about it; and finally coming up with something of dubious reward.

ibee makes it sound fun; maybee it is, but EVERY single aspect of that dream has beecome MORE dangerous in recent months. at least, in the u.s.

there's freaking cameras over the matches in grocery stores!
toluene is nearly gone, otc!
if a cop pulls you over for a bad tail light, and finds a pack of pills and a bottle of acetone, you could do hard time!
wallyworld has automated suspicious purchase technology; local police forces have tons of $ to fuck you up; etc, etc.

just thought the young'ns needed to hear another side of this story beefore they wreck their lives.

and i don't mean from the drug, either.
i mean from the attempt.

[embezzler]

has anyone tried sending an email to the fda requesting information about what the fuck you are taking for your rhino-congesting ailment, they might even bee obliged to tell you even if they wouldnt advertise the fact. geez i am sure some office headed paper would go a long way.

[wareami]

even if you aren't willing to admit, publicly, that the size of a rxn is a factor in the length of reflux needed...

For that matter, I could never admit privately that the size of the rxn influences the time it takes to fully reduce product and consume the unwanted intermediates produced in that process!
The amount of E being reduced is proportionate to the reactants needed to create HI.
If Ibee is cooking 1 tenth of a gram...he'll still cook for 30hrs minimum!


As for all the inherent dangers and risks beeing somewhat higher, I agree. A bee cumming into this game a year ago had a significant advantage over bees stepping onto the playing field today where OTC aquisition is concerned. It sux, I know! LE wants the playing field leveled and they will level it!
If it weren't for the "young`ns" Ibee wouldn't have invested the time he did in trying to hang onto obtaining feedstock from the easiest available source even though he predicted this would come countless times. Unfortunately...all that invested time could only focus on staying one step behind and left little room for making provisions for the future or the shift would bee seamless and relatively easy. That calculated risk in time investment might seem to most as non-fruitful and if Ibee were facing the donald(trump)...he'd say "Yer Fired"
But now we see the need for a shift and talk is cheep so Ibee's making shifts and his cheeptalk is here to reflect that!
But on the other side of the coin, Ibee aims to prove that if a pill exists on the market....it can be extracted successfully!
"Cheep Cheep"

[jsorex]

these polymers do degrade by time or by microbiological entities. There must be literature on that. Do you think that braking the polymer would not break the wanted particles? Is it possible that this wouldn't enough measures?

[wareami]

At one time all that was necessary to successfully extract pfed was identifying a problem inactive and finding a suitable solvent to disable it or carry it away. Polymer science created some difficult beasts. The processes used in the manufacture of certain pills provided some clues...eg...drymatrix(MCC-HPMC), gelling agents such as solgel and some encapsulators. But the beasts of today are multifunctional hybrid polymers that hinder many approaches to extraction on multiple levels.
Bees aren't afforded an ID today on what those beasts are and this makes identifying difficult!
The most likely way an ID will be obtained is through column separation of the whole lot and then analysizing each component separately to see what it's composed of.
This is just Ibee's assessment of the likely route to take and this ideaology has been hinted at by some chemist bees here in the past!
Thin layer chromatography (TLC) peeked Ibees interest the first he saw it mentioned by rhodium as a means of identifying the quality and purity of the end-result.
Ibee may not be the brightest bee in the alfabet, but redlights started blaring when he saw that post.
The main obstacle in Ibee's mind at that time were the warnings about toxicity of silica as posted by Lugh some time ago. This newest flash chromatography utilizes solid/liquid phase separation which utilizes silica gel as the solid.
Ibee's studying UP on this as I type because it may provide the necessary springboard to better understanding and eventually lead to more effective ways to extraction.
OII gaak got kicked to the curb through the use of jap drier even though bees still don't have an industry name that applies to this gaak.
This newer gaak would be defeated faster if a name can be associated with it and the properties identified!
Slamming solvents at pills is risky because bees don't know how an undentified substance will react!
Bees got lucky last time but it's not a risk Ibee's willing to stake everybees health on everytime!
So a more educated approach seems the best route here rather than gambling and stabbing in the dark!
Is there a huge learning curve here?
You bet ya! But like I said....we have the knowledge here that might cushion the blows some by putting what otherwise might seem overly complicated, into better perspective if bees tap into that knowledgebase intelligently with determination to expand their chemistry skills!
Three years ago, everything on this board looked like rocketscience to The Kidz and that mentalblock carried with it a feeling of insurmountability at every turn....
Until they remembered they could do anything they set their mind to! And that's the Key to success and Go-Getting!
"Let My PeepHole GO"  
Yeeeee Haaaaaa!!!  

[CharlieBigpotato]

wareami,

sorry about that little ribbing about size mattering.
i'm not that attached to size, having 7, but like to have fun.

but i'm glad as hell that you could allow that the young hopefulls, whom might bee hanging on your everyword, are in for a much more difficult challange than we sufffered, on all fronts.

the rxn is a cake walk. the extraction and work-up requires more knowledge and organization, but is also easy.
ratios set in stone can bee unset with sucess; temps too; and time; and equipment...all of it.

until now.
now, buying less than 3 grams of suda-fed in the u.s. typicly costs $8 or more, and you have to feel like a criminal to get it, and with extraordinary luck, you may get 1/2 the precursor out, but highly unlikely. if you do, you've probably brought out the villians.
post rxn, again, lucky to get half.
and that was yesterday

this isn't bad news as much as factual reporting

[gluecifer69]

Swim has heard rumors for the last three yearz that the behind the counter sixties would be eliminated.  Much to swim's surprise they haven't been changed at since then.  These pillz are 60's I'm talking about and I'm sure everyone else is aware of them.  Swim can cross a couple of state borders and get them for 12.00/36 count or 125/flat.  Of course there will probably be a stop put to them as well.

Swim sees this as a clandestine chemist vs. the pharmacuetal chemist.   The only difference should be equip.  BTW how much is a flash chromotography column?

[foxy2]

I'm sure this is the denatureing scheme your dealing with.

{0034} In the instant invention a preferred combination inhibitor may be an amino polymer or the corresponding neutralized salt form of the amino polymer. The amino polymer, in both the amine and neutralized salt forms, has a similar solubility profile to the corresponding form of many sympathomimetic amines, making it very difficult to separate the amine from a composition containing an amino polymer. Additionally, the amino polymer inhibits the chemical conversion of sympathomimetic amines to other pharmacologically active compounds. The prior art teaches the use of unneutralized amino polymers as coating agents for sympathomimetic amines (or other pharmacologically active agents). In such references the purpose of the uneutralized amino polymer in the composition is to prevent the active ingredient (e.g., a sympathetic amine) from dissolving in the mouth and creating an undesirable taste. Thus, the unneutralized amino polymer is used in a manner specifically intended to modify the release of the coated active agent in water as compared to the uncoated active ingredient. In the instant invention the use of the unneutralized (and/or neutralized) amino polymer is specifically designed to have no significant effect on the release of the active ingredient in water as compared to the same formulation without the amino polymer.

{0035} One example of an amino polymer contemplated in this invention is a copolymer of methyl methacrylate, butyl methacrylate and dimethylaminoethyl methacrylate, also known as aminoalkyl methacrylate copolymer E, JP. A preferred copolymer of methyl methacrylate, butyl methacrylate and dimethylaminoethyl methacrylate is Eudragit-E.RTM. which is available from Rohm America, Somerset, N.J. In the instant invention the amino polymer can be from about 0% to about 100% in the neutralized salt form. In a preferred embodiment the amino polymer is from about 50% to about 100% in the neutralized salt form. More preferably, the amino polymer is from about 70% to about 100% in the neutralized salt form and most preferably it is from about 85% to about 98% in the neutralized salt form. The neutralized form of the amino polymer in the instant invention can be a salt of a strong or a weak acid. Examples of strong acids used in the preparation of a neutralized amino polymer are hydrochloric, sulfuric, nitric and phosphoric acids. Weak acids contemplated in the preparation of the neutralized amino polymer include citric, ascorbic and acetic acids. An example of a preferred form of a neutralized amino polymer is the hydrochloric acid salt form of the amino polymer. The hydrochloride salt of the amino polymer is prepared by suspending the free base in distilled water and adding hydrochloric acid. The suspension may be warmed and mixed until the solution is complete. The resultant thick, viscous solution is then dried to produce a clear, brittle film. The film is milled to produce a powder suitable for incorporation into a tablet powder blend.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220020082304%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20020082304&RS=DN/20020082304

[wareami]

Thanx bro!
This is in fact precisely what bees are dealing with and have been dealing with since OII gaak. Ibee always suspected that methyl methacrylate was the root gaak but had no way to identify it.
Anybee ever see that listed on the box?
Now...anybee see the correlation between the disclosure of MCC and HPMC equalling drymatrix thereby creating an ID and it's eventual downfall?
No wonder they won't list these newer co-polymers.
Who the fuck do I sue for that little non-disclosure? Ehhhh???
For all the lack of chemistry knowledge however, bees have been able to determine the properties of that OII gaak denaturant and learned how to disable it.
Ibee never knew the correct terminology but bees will recall his assessment of what occurred when japan drier and tetra were used followed by simple acetone rinses.
He claimed it needed to be disabled or deactivated before it could be removed. He was right! Now bees can see the association between what actually takes place and how Ibee described it with his lack of terminology skills.
It needs to be brought out of it's activated state(neutralized salt form) or disabled before it will be recieved by a solvent that doesn't accept pfed readily.
This makes perfect sense now that it is in black and white.
Other bees had success with the use of boiling solvents but Ibee always found that the highest obtained without changing the properties of pfed were with the use of naphthenic salts in the presence of tetrachloroethylene and petroleum distillate. This substance could then be readily removed by employing acetone rinses.
Look at the list of chemicals that comprise this substance...
•methyl methacrylate
•butyl methacrylate
•dimethylaminoethyl methacrylate
They named this a co-polymer.
It's name? aminoalkyl methacrylate copolymer E, JP
AKA....Eudragit-E.RTM
Okay....Ibee named it a hybrid multifunctional polymer and he wasn't far off because of the additional processes applied to this copolymer with the use of Acids and other conditions to tweek it's properties prior to going to the presses!
For guesswork, I'd say that bees were batting 1000 concerning this substance and I still stand behind the facts that support it beeing a cold day in hell before they empoy a substance in pills that bee will not find a work-around for!
We bees might bee considered to bee dumb as a box of rocks at times, but translated, that dumbness into stubborness and determination equals success for the collective more times than not, however fleeting those successes might bee!
Ibee has some studying to do....so if ya'll will excuse us for this round...

[UncleFester]

The sole advantage of those OTC ephedrine or sudo pills is that they can be bought OTC without leaving a trail, and then one has to procure the iodine, red P, hypo acid or ammonia and Li to reduce them with some other hardware store ingredients. If extracting them is a constant evolution of techniques which last for a few months then there are many other routes which pose no more risk and can be scaled up for real production of the good d,l meth I used to make. For example starting with toluene through the benzaldehyde routes, starting with cumene through the hydratropic aldehyde routes, or starting with ethylbenzene through the phenylacetic acid routes. If the bottom line is you are going to have to show ID to buy sudo, large purchases will be recorded, and so these other routes offer much more yeild with a lot less wondering what is in the product I buy and how to deal with it. d,l meth is far preferable to the d meth anyway, as the buzz and adventures one can have while buzzed are far preferable. This pill fucking is becoming such an evolving topic that I don't think I can write on the topic anymore because the leadtime and the shelf life of the books are too long.