health problems to blame on h3po3??PLease Read

[toltec]

I started out doing birches/had great success.Annie ran out so I went the waay of matches and iodine/had great success also.h3po3 came along,I was tired of scrapin matches so did the h3po3 thing/Had very great success(after fckinup about 6 batches/I always only cooked for myself,so 5 gram cook was suffitiant.Was pulling aabout 3-3.5 grams out of 5gram cook.I was happy with it.I used charcolliter fluid and did two Warm washes after 16 hour cook then I did two water washes 6 times volume of water to fluid after basing with red devil
I pulled product by one drop of muratic per 5mil of water then evapoerated in clean microwave on plate.I then did two or three acetone washes of finished product I am always left with a glass like product that leaves no residue when melted on foil or glass.THIs is the best shit I have had since the birches,but smoother.OKay I am what you call a binge user I just can't do one or two lines. I love to just smoke and eat product until it is gone or i am to fucked up to do any more.(YEah I know must have some unresaolved isues)I first notice problemes after the third succesful batch my right hand started to swell ontop in between the knuckles and wrist then every joint in my hand swelled so I couldn't make a fist.Of course I didn't notice the pain untill The shit ran out.It was so bad that it took 40mg of oxecotten just to make it bearable.60mg got rid of the pain ,but I was to gooffy to do anything.I waited for tyhe meth to be gone from my system about thre days and I whet to three specailist.I had test run for rumathoid arthrightous/It came up negitive.I had exrays and a cunductive test for corpul tunnel==allnegetive.Blood work showed nothing.My familly doctor has com to the conclution that I must have arthritus even though the exrays don't show it.For this I get 10 mg of hydrocodone a month.The attaxck on my hand last about two months then go away.the worst of the pain is the first three weeks.I have ran this exsperiment on myself 6 times and I know that the only time my hand swells is after i idulge myself with some of honey.
THis really suck for me.for it was the only thing I really enjoyed.beside maybe SOMAS ,but I don't know how to make them.Wish to god I did.I never had any problems with honey made from annie or red/io.If anyone has exsperianced this problem or has heard of this please let me know.I would love to find a "FIX" for this.I have not as yet gone back to red/io and if I could find annie I will try that to see if I get the same results.I have a brother in law that says
that he has had simillar problems but not as seveer,only when he get honey from a certain place.I think maybe h3po3 was used ther also
Oh I found that the best way to keep h3p03 Is vacume packed
with food savor==Last me a year and a haft so far
also next time you get a cold and you are about to die with a sore throught take 5mg of hydrocodine with 800mg of advil you will have absolutley no sore thought for about 4-5 hours

[barkingburro]

of using h3po3 rather than h3po3 itself. swibb has also noticed some less than desireable side effects on some but not all or even most h3po3 rxns. perhaps it is the phosphoric acid that is causing the problems? swibb was doing a lil research into side effects of h3po4 on the system and one thing he found is that phosphoric acid in large doses can build up in the form of phosphate salts within the body, causing a depletion of calcium. this is just cursory research so far, but thought it might be helpful.

[biotechdude]

It may be a warning sign that your body isn't too happy about your binge meth consumption.  Eg. Ever go really hard on a particular spirit then cant stand the smell of it (let alone drink it) anymore?

Maybe this is your body's way of telling u to go easier.  That said, if u are 'healthy' perhaps it is a byproduct of the H3PO3 rxn.  Medically, perhaps one of those nasty phosphate salts lodges in your joint (causing inflamation etc) but then is degraded enough (to reduce inflammation) over a few weeks....then it is then flared up again by another meth (and resultant phosphate salt) binge. 

Now this is all speculative; and the real test will be when u take some rp/i or birch gear and see if it has the same result.  That will narrow the cause to either the H3PO3 rxn, or meth in general.  Must b a bitch to wank...

[Glasya]

SWIM’s friend suffers from psoriatic arthritis, blood test for both rheumatoid and osto-arthritis will both show up negative. SWIM’s friend noticed that if he did meth several times over a weekend that his arthritis would get really bad. SWIM believes that some how meth slows down the production of cortisone in the system that basically cleans out the joints, seeing as how people with psoriasis actually have skin reproducing much faster than normal and the system can’t keep up with joint repair. A really quick fix to this is to take 20mg of prednisone for 2-3 days and you should be fine. A good indication of psoriatic arthritis is unusual lines growing in your finger nails, also the fingernails will get slightly thicker.

Just a guess… SWIM’s friend suffered from this for 4 years before a specialist finally figured out what it was.

[ChemoSabe]

Most of the alleged "meth related health problems" that I've witnessed are mostly the results of really poor diet and lack of regular excercise (& lack of sleep).

If you are not lactose intolerant make a habit of drinking lots of milk frequently. Since it's the only food product that covers the full range of bodily needs you won't run into deficiencies of any of the food groups or vitamins and minerals that commonly plague the average meth user (who often seem clueless about maintaining a healthy food intake). It'll also help keep you hydrated but don't forget to also drink a lot of water with your meth escpecially if you ever combine it with alcohol (which also contributes to nutritional depletion in addition to dehydration).

By this point it's well  known that the one thing that you can do for yourself that is the #1 cause of longevity and general health is regular excercise so I'll make sure not to mention it.

Almost forgot. I'm sure you know this too but it seems like you need a reminder. To purify your shit of any unhealthy byproducts recrystallize it. Once you get used to reX'd shit anything but pure will turn your stomach.

Or at least it should.

PS - one final note. All health problems have their initial spark of their source within your own mind. Nothing ever just randomly comes and "gets you" and all medically related "problems" are in some way attracted (dare I say invited?) by you. Those "problems" being like flies and you like the proverbial "shit". With that stated somtimes a simple shift of attitude or the disposal of old ideas concerning a partucular seemingly unrelated matter can "magically" cure what the doctors told you was an incurable and/or genetically predispoed disease.

[Osmium]

> Medically, perhaps one of those nasty phosphate salts lodges
> in your joint (causing inflamation etc) but then is degraded
> enough (to reduce inflammation) over a few weeks....then it
> is then flared up again by another meth (and resultant
> phosphate salt) binge.

Phosphates aren't toxic. Your average soft drink contains shitloads of it.

[barkingburro]

contain approx 160mg of phosphate salts, i.e. phosphoric acid, and are ingested and passed through the digestive system. swibb's been doing some reading that suggests that inhaled phosphate salts have a more detrimental effect on the calcium levels of the human body. i'll get some links.

[spectralshift]

So if your body has low levels calcium for a very short period for whatever reason, it will instantly cause arthritic symptoms and joint pains will it?

There I was thinking that drinking milk was doing me longterm good.

[Osmium]

DO you ever have anything worthwhile to contribute, half-baked?

[MnkyBoy78]

In the distant past when SWIM would get some gear done via WP/I/E and the gear wasn't super clean, (Back when if it looked pretty it was good, but that thinking was disolved after the first rextalizing), SWIM's joints would ache and then SWIM's teeth would soon after start 'aching'.  After doing some research on "Phos-Jaw" and other phos related side effects it was learned that YES, calcuim is depleated in the body due to phosphates and its salts.  After popping a few high content HIGH QUALITY Calcuim pills the aching joints and bones would start to deminish.  This was done 2x a day for a few days.

*Note:  Calcuim from cheap sources isn't taken up by your body as easily.  Also, your body will only take what it needs.  Males with high calcuim intakes will eventually end up pissing a boulder.

What your teachers and parents taught you as a young'en was right:  Drink your milk, exercise and get plenty of sleep.  These few simple rules will elliminate the the shadows from jumping out at your, keep you from looking like a wacked out-skin and bones junkie and keep your body in shape incase the event of running takes place.

[Rhodium]

YES, calcuim is depleated in the body due to phosphates and its salts.

That statement makes no sense, as phosphates are salts. Where are the references to phosphate salts leaching calcium from your bones? That Phosphorus itself is toxic is well known, but your very bones consist to a great deal of calcium phosphate...

[Osmium]

> Calcuim from cheap sources isn't taken up by your body as easily.

Where did you hear that? From an ad for some overpriced calcium supplements?

[wareami]

Health effects of phosphorus

Phosphorus can be found in the environment most commonly as phosphates. Phosphates are important substances in the human body, because they are a part of DNA materials and they take part in energy distribution. Phosphates can also be found commonly in plants.
Humans have changed the natural phosphate supply radically by addition of phosphate-rich manures to the soil and by the use of phosphate-containing detergents. Phosphates were also added to a number of foodstuffs, such as cheese, sausages and hams.
Too much phosphate can cause health problems, such as kidney damage and osteoporosis. Phosphate shortages can also occur. These are caused by extensive use of medicine. Too little phosphate can cause health problems.

from

http://www.tldp.com/issue/210/lettersabd.htm

Treatment of Organophosphate Exposure
Editor:

In my experience, organophosphate exposure causes more than just the neurological problems associated with anticholinesterase activity. However, the medical literature, most of the time, concentrates on that aspect of the poisoning. Particularly in chronic poisoning, the chemical dissociates within the body, resulting in metabolites of the organic component (which appear to have slightly different properties from the original at first exposure), phosphorus (which is highly toxic and corrosive in its own right) and whatever the associated radical/chemical add-on which the manufacturers add (in the Gulf War, this appears to have been fluorine which is also toxic in its own right).* With each of these component parts, there are separate sets of sypmtoms, separate storage sites, separate means of elimination. When the chemicals are stored in the body, they can be mobilized back into the bloodstream (in greater concentrations than at the time of absorption) as a result of exercise, heat, emotional excitement/distress, infection, massage, exposure to nutrients via dermal route near the storage sites, or due to displacement by other chemicals/drugs to which the person is exposed. Any detox must therefore be carried out with considerable care and caution, to avoid overwhelming the body’s coping mechanisms because of overload by chemicals re-emerging into the bloodstream.

There is precious little about chronic phosphate poisoning in modern literature; however, older books do deal with phosphorus poisoning because it was common in people manufacturing matches at that time. Body fluids containing phosphorous (particularly feces, urine, and possibly semen) will burn. Phosphorus bind strongly to mucous membranes (the cause of diarrhea and watery eyes in GWI cases). The toxic effects of chemicals can be somewhat ameliorated by ingestion of liquid bentonite several times a day (not close to meals) – it binds to phosphorous and the organics, preventing some of the caustic effects, and helping prevent re-absorption back into the system through the intestinal wall. Both phosphorus and fluorine can be bound by calcium and magnesium. A combination of calcium citrate and magnesium oxide, in approximate physiological balance, plus potassium amino acid chelate, can be taken as needed throughout the day as symptoms are noted in the muscles, head, extremities.

Materials and dosages:

Calcium Citrate and Magnesium (Nature's Life, Garden Grove, CA 92841) containing Calcium (Citrate) 1000 mg, Magnesium (Oxide) 667 mg) 2 tablets with 1 capsule of Potassium 99 mg (Nature's Way Products, 10 Mountain Springs Parkway, Springville, Utah 84663) - 99 mg Potassium amino acid chelate

In addition, nutrients may be supplemented with a good multivitamin preparation (which must contain choline and inositol, and very low – or no – iron). The best one I have turned up is "Green Multi” from Nature’s Life, Garden Grove, California 92841. Because the organophosphates diminish absorption of nutrients while increasing the requirement for them, both this preparation, plus the calcium/magnesium and potassium mentioned above, can be dissolved in the mouth – absorbing through the mucous membranes of the mouth. Individual supplements can be taken as desired – such as vitamin E (an antioxidant), vitamin A (to help protect vision), copper (which phosphorus binds to), zinc (balances copper), and B complex (balanced – the only balanced formula I know of is "Balanced B-Complex Formula" from General Nutrition Corporation, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15222). Vitamin C is also useful, although I don't recommend dissolving that in the mouth. The teeth (and bones) are under sufficient stress as it is – both from the corrosive effect of the phosphorus, and from the storage of fluoride which makes teeth and bones brittle. Dissolved Green Multi dissolves through the skin, too.

All fluorine exposure should be avoided – which may be difficult considering water supplies are being increasingly fluoridated. Fluoride absorbs through the skin as well as via mouth, making hot tubs and swimming pools places to add to the body's already excessive fluoride.

The old standby for restoring damaged myelin sheaths around nerves – lecithin – contains a whopping amount of phosphorus. However, some of it may have to be taken in order to restore neurological integrity or prevent further damage. Taking choline and inositol separately via supplement appears to dislodge stored chemicals from brain and other neurological tissue all at once, creating some rather bizarre and unsettling effects. (This info is based on a supplement containing 250 mg crystalline choline (from bitartrate) and 250 mg crystalline inositol (TwinLabs, Ronkonkoma, New York 11779). However, without choline and inositol in some form, dimness of vision cannot be prevented or reversed, nor can damaged brain cell coverings be mended.

During the process of detox and mending, the body's detox and eliminatory systems need to be supported. Milk thistle will help sustain and cleanse liver function; (Milk thistle's scientific name is Silybum marinarum.) Stellaria spp. (common chickweed) will help prevent kidney damage/stress. Dulcamara (sweet nightshade) is the best source of atropine that I know of – very little (about a dime-size piece) of a fresh leaf can stop anticholinesterase flare-up from re-mobilized chemicals within minutes. (Must be held in the mouth and gently chewed for some minutes before swallowing.) Leaves vary in potency – the more purple on a leaf, the stronger it is. Dulcamara does not keep its potency well when dried – it gradually loses it (with stems losing potency more slowly). Copious amounts of water (non-fluoride containing spring water preferably) should be consumed, and bathing should be done with organic non-phosphate soaps.

Diet should be heavy on green veggies and other veggies (grown free of pesticide if possible). Carbonated beverages which contain phosphoric acid (many of them do) are to be absolutely avoided – they can burn out the kidneys all by themselves – even in people who have no organophosphate exposure. Milk, unfortunately, contains a high amount of phosphorus in proportion to its calcium content. A nutritional table can be consulted to find foods high in potassium, calcium and/or magnesium, but low in phosphates. A healing salve can be applied externally over the kidney and liver area to speed healing – with a base of olive oil and a thickener of beeswax, the herbal ingredients are comfrey, plantain (Plantago lanceolata – lanceleaf plantain – a common garden weed) and ordinary cooking sage (Salvia officinalis).

It needs to be noted that clothing contaminated with organophosphates cannot be washed clean, and trying to wash it with other items of clothing results in the contamination of all of them. Storage in drawers and closets will also result in contamination not only of other clothing items in the same place, but also contaminate walls, floors of closets, and the wood in the chests of drawers. Contaminated walls can be washed down first with organic soap and then immediately with a slurry of lime. This does not eliminate the chemical from the walls entirely, but creates a film which can bind to at least some of the chemicals as they out-gas. It will have to be repeated. While performing such an operation, vigorous fresh-air ventilation is essential. Protective clothing and face covering (disposable) would be helpful. Even with these precautions, there is no guarantee that such cleaning won't expose the person doing the cleaning to enough chemicals to cause discomfort or a few days of symptoms.

After reading the article on the Gulf War vets by Gary Null in the October 1998 issue of Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients I am wondering if part of the organophosphate exposure could have been via uniforms either sprayed to “de-bug” them or stored in a sprayed storage space. I get the impression that military personnel were not always knowledgeable about the properties and hazards of pesticides, and not routinely careful in their use. Clothing contaminated in such a way could well result in sickness and/or death over a period of time, to those wearing them.

Maria

Sources

Phosphorus: Henniger, Gordon R., Chapter 4, Drug and Chemical Injury – Environmental Pathology, pp. 146-245 in Kissane, John M., ed., Anderson’s Pathology – 9th ed. (St. Louis, C.V. Mosby Co. 1990)

Merck Manual – 13th ed., p. 1977

McGuigan, Hugh Alister, Applied Pharmacology, pp. 743-746, (St. Louis, C.V. Mosby Co. 1940)

Fluorine: Smith, Frank A., Fluroide Toxicity, pp. 277-283 in Corn, Morton, editor, Handbook of Hazardous Materials (San Diego, Academic Press 1993)

Hennigar, Gordon R., Chapter 4, Drug and Chemical Injury – Environmental Pathology, pp. 146-245 in Kissane, John M., ed., Anderson’s Pathology – 9th ed. (St. Louis, C.V. Mosby Co. 1990)

Merck Manual – 13th ed., p. 1970

McGuigan, Hugh Alister, Applied Pharamcology (St. Louis, C.V. Mosby 1940), p. 184

Organophosphates: Hennigar, Chapter (same as above), p. 226

Berkow, Robert, ed., The Merck Manual of Diagnosis and Therapy – 13th ed. (Rahway, NJ, Merck, Sharp & Dohme Research Laboratories 1977), p. 1482.

Dreisbach, Robt. H. and Wm. O. Robertson, Handbook of Poisoning: Prevention, Diagnosis and Treatment (Appleton & Lange, Norwalk, CT 1987) pp. 110-118.

[Osmium]

Maria doesn't know what she's talking about, and I fail to see the relevance for this thread.

The amount of phosphate contained in the worst peanut butter dope isn't high enough to cause you any health problems whatsoever. Period.

[lugh]

From Chapter 12 of The Chemistry of Phosphorus by John Emsley:

The generat structure of organophosphorus poisons is represented by the drawing where G¹ and G² are groups which are difficult to displace from phosphorus (e.g. alkoxy, dialkylamino or alkyl) whereas X is a fairly good leaving group (e.g. F or p--N0₂­ C₆H₄O-). Slight variations in structure can have very dramatic effects on the efficiency of organophosphorus poisons and this is undoubtedly due to the fact that the interaction of an enzyme with a substrate is very sensitive to the size, shape and polarity of the substrate molecule.



As Osmium stated, this structure isn't going to result from any reduction, since there's no way for a fluorine or thioether group to attach to elemental phophorus under these conditions    Maria doesn't display much actual knowledge of the organic chemistry of phosphorus, her primary goal seems to be pitching the products of a health food store    Many of her statements are obviously nonsense, Sarin synthesis is far more complex than she leads the reader to believe    For those that want to read all of chapter 12, here it is:

[barkingburro]

Soda containing phosphoric acid also contributes to osteoporosis; the acid having to be neutralized with calcium. Although phosphorus helps mediate calcium levels, high-phosphorus diets, especially when you're low in calcium, will lead to osteoporosis. Phosphorus is added to many edibles sold today - it helps to retain moisture and acts as an anti-caking agent. (And too much phosphorus in the diet can lead to muscle cramps, mini-strokes, high blood pressure, and soft tissue calcification - kidney stones and atherosclerosis).

source :

http://health101.org/art_osteo.htm

Soft drink phosphorous vs health: All the soft drinks have phosphoric acid in them to make them bubbly. This excess has a very deleterious affect on health. Phosphorous has an important bearing on the homeostasis of blood. Its excess leads to mineral imbalances that can be very detrimental to the body.

So the next time you want that soft drink, we suggest you look for that bubbly water without the phosphoric acid, sugar, Carmel color, or aspartame. Now that you realize what those soft drinks are doing to you, you might find the others quite refreshing

 
source :

http://www.vitalstar.com/Contents/health/articles/healthcorner/general/softdrinks.htm

Calcium Balance

Eating a red meat/high protein diet may leach calcium from the system (controversial). Sodium and the phosphoric acid in soda drinks also leach calcium. High fiber foods may increase calcium excretion and should be taken into consideration, especially when assessing requirements for the elderly.

source :

http://www.vitalnutrients.net/hq_handouts2.asp?VitaminName=Calcium

i understand that h3po3 is NOT phosphoric acid but the by product of an h3po3 rxn IS phosphoric acid and its very possible that there is residual h3po4 in the final product.

[Rhodium]

All the soft drinks have phosphoric acid in them to make them bubbly.

Obviously incorrect, as the pop-pop-fizz-fizz in beverages is carbonic acid, an aqueous solution of carbon dioxide.

After such a blunder, I wouldn't believe the rest either.

[elfspice]

i would think the swelling joints is indeed psoriatic arthritis, being caused by an allergen produced as a side product of the hypo reaction. hypophosphorous salts are given to farm animals for certain types of illness... i don't see how residual hypo could cause a problem, but perhaps there is a side reaction which is unique to hypophosphorous and produces a small amount of a chemical which triggers the immune system to go into overdrive (psoriasis and eczema are in part auto-immune diseases, as is arthritis).

and i would suggest that this is actually an immune system response to spending so many 2-4 day periods without sleep. People get colds, flu, and all sorts of other signs of lowered immunity... sleep is all you need...

also, milk is great for two reasons whith meth. First is, it's not hard to stomach it even when you're really high (unless your gear is full of pseudo/ephedrine and ppa) and the best thing is, it's full of amino acids, you can guarantee there's loads of tryptophan, tyrosine and phenylalanine in there, all of which in my experience will result in better rushes when you dose up, and can really almost stop all the nasty effects of the comedown (well, unless it's that stinky yellow crank shit). I remember one time taking phenylalanine and tyrosine tablets when i started coming down, and i pretty much stayed high and up until i slept the next night. I also find gingko seems to extend the effect of speed a fair bit.

the only way to get the good rushes is to be well rested and well fed. no amount of extra gear is gonna make you any higher if you're body is already running on reserves and starting to decompose the fats and proteins in your body.

[dwarfer]

Listen, an imbalance of minerals may in fact cause wierd symptoms including fluid retention, dehydration, and what have you.

EGGSHELLS contain significant amounts of readily available
calcium.

If the ignorant person who delete my first post wants to dispute the matter, I'm game.  What, was the humor too much?

If  Toltec blends the milk and whole eggs including the egg shells (which i recomended cleaning ) and yogurt thick enough to suspend the egggshells, a nutricious palliative to the symptoms may be realized.

[biotechdude]

<<In addition, the blood pressure and pulse rate skyrocket, greatly increasing the risk of a heart attack. Body temperatures also increase greatly, often approaching 108 degrees fahrenheit, resulting in brain damage, coma, and death.

There is great risk of mental illness with prolonged use. Chronic methamphetamine use will result in symptoms closely resembling paranoid schizophrenia, with auditory and visual
hallucinations, delusions (especially delusions of insects crawling on the skin, also known as formication), panic, anger, and homicidal or suicidal thoughts>>

Now these are the health effects of long term or excessive meth use.  However, what are the immediate health dangers of meth use?  Have meth or any specific impurities been shown to actually biochemically 'hurt' your body (as in the phosphate salt theory = arthritis).

This is of course aside from the obvious dehydration, malnourishment and exhaustion problems from the increased workload on your body.

Also found was

<<Often chronic users may go several days, even a couple weeks, without sleep>>

Weeks! without sleep??!!  Is this even possible..or what's the longest hardcore bees have stayed up for?

[ChemoSabe]

The first guy I ever met who cooked told me that he and his cook buddy once had a contest to see who could stay up the longest. One lasted to day 13 the other barely beat him by staying up a full two weeks. Now you might start to understand the underlying origin of the word tweaker as it applies to methheads.

The guy who won that contest literally pulled a two-weeker.

Personally I'll never push beyond 2 or 3 days or things just start getting too weird and my overall effectiveness in basic task doing begins to break down. I think Buster Hymen once said the same thing but he said something to the effect of "after day 3 things can tend to appear to be turning sinister". That's been my experience too. The potential for counterproductive paranoia can be sensed.

Something in the way I hear sound is often my best clue that I need some quality dreamtime. Odd sounding barely audible "ghost" music and subtle subdued voices begin coming out of almost anything. If I hear my name softly whispered by the flushing toilet I have no doubt that it's time to catch up on some z's.

Some people really dig that "weird zone" though and a decent few claim that it's the very best time to enjoy cannabis products. Not in my book but everyone's different.

[geezmeister]

Day three almost always finds me sleeping for a couple of hours. If I take the time to sleep four hours a night, I can keep a run going for weeks, unless I do a good deal of strenuous physical labor. I've gone longer, but by day three the sleep deprivation monsters begin to appear, and by the end of the day they are no longer fun to tweak on. I'd rather sleep a little every day than get into the tweaker zone.

[biotechdude]

Is there a safe way or any no-nos for helping you get to sleep after a decent binge (lasting a few days)..

Eg, are strong sleeping tablets good?
or should one get into the weed?
or just wait it out like a tweaking fuck

Because friends will just lie there wanting to sleep, doze off for five mins, then wake up in a cold sweat and heart beating like a piston?

Is there a way to 'get off the ride' when you want to?

[dwarfer]

Odd sounding barely audible "ghost" music and subtle subdued voices begin coming out of almost anything. If I hear my name softly whispered by the flushing toilet I have no doubt that it's time to catch up on some z's.

It is amazing: out of a random "white" noise source,
a particular song can be heard, as if coming from a car outside or something.. and it is definite..

Lean up against a building, and you can discern vibrations previously undiscernable..

======

geting off the ride?  No prob.

1st best is some nice GHB.  Oh yeah, a two hour GHB delta sleeper and you'll be ready for anudder 24 hours.

but?  you do this for about a week, and you WILL get in a land of wierdness.  INterestingly, it's like a really cool acid trip.  No janglies, just unfilteed perception.

Like the white noise= songs, however, you will SEE patterns which are obviously not there, but you will se tings that you didn't USTA see that ARE there, too. 

2.  Benzodiazapines, readily ordered from overseas pharmacies, S/B in the tweaker's bag of untrix..

[ChemoSabe]

Another effect that is a sure sign to me that I've truly burnt the candle at both ends too long (which is rare) is that my ability to correctly focus my eyes begins to suffer and my handwriting gets horrific. A kind visual overlay then begins to occur in which the transparent cellular matter of my eyes themselves becomes overty present in my visual field. This subtle sheen of "squirmy worms" then proceeds to weirdly fill in the gaps of my slowly deteriorating eye focusing capacities. Once that whole chain of bizarre mechanisms begins churning I've essentialy got a whopping case of what some might categorize as "strong visual hallucinations" And they are not really enjoyable to me like acid, psilocybin or mesc visuals. It feels more like a tweaky malfunction than a true substance-caused visual effect. So instead I class it as an annoying and undesirable sleep deprivation symptom.

If this ever starts up I'll immediately go to bed and am usually out cold within 5 minutes or less after fully relaxing. To continue to remain awake would intensify it and make it worse and more exaggerated.

Occasionally I'll drink a glass or two of a lower to mid priced Cabernet Sauvegnon red wine when sleep is stubborn but my trend with alcohol has been to steadily drink less and less. I've become too acutely aware of how much it dehydrates me and I find my body actually shunning it.

I used to drink vodka to sleep but it now has an energizing effect on me which is completely counterproductive to sleeping. My theory on that is that it's read by the body as a high concentration blast of sugar. Plus, just like methyl and iso alc gasline fuel dryers can do for your car, ethyl does a similarly mean job of sucking water outa your body.

Rarely I'll take one bendryl/diphenhydramine as a "sleep inviter" but my trend is to shun that too due to it sometimes resulting in what I call "the morning zombie effect".

[gryphon]

Anyone who 'thinks' they stay awake for two weeks has forgotten that at some point in that period their body did shut down.  It may have been only an hour or two, but that little lapse into la la land, would have enabled some sort of body functioning for the next day.

[Jacked]

Damn, about once every couple to three weeks I'll do a 4 dayer. After the 3rd day is on I find myself the most creative, The results are airbrushed after a good day of sleep.. I never seen monsters or things that wasn't there? Maybe it is because I'm focused on the project at hand?
 This thread took a turn to the left I think.

[SHORTY]

Some woman from either the UK or US who was in Africa working with people in the jungle and claiming that it was not necessary to sleep.  She said as long as she kept busy and ate twice as many meals a day she never got sleepy.  She was giving a speech on the benefits of not sleeping after being awake for 60 straight days.  About 10 minutes into her speech she fell asleep.  The story was in a regular daily newspaper.  Whether or not it was true i don't know.  I just remember wondering if she had found a new stimulant in some kind of jungle plant.

[kris_1108]

Why would anyone want to stay awake for more than ~24hrs anyway? After reading some of those posts it seems that there are plenty of bad points but no good points. Obviously I havent done anything like that before. Is it fun? Whats wrong with sleeping once a day, for around 6 or 7hrs?

??

[Jacked]

Week minds need plenty of sleep. I have never seen a crystal ninga (shit that aint there) I make a living at getting things done, I don't procrastinate hallucinate or get paranoid, I do tend to focus more on meth than when I'm not especially when detail is important. I do get grouchy, I'm an asshole after 24 hours but I'm that way strait.. I will sleep when I feel like it and stay up when I don't. Reading the above information should be kept to an indivual who has written his or her symptoms and not generalize the effects on the majority or minority which in this case might be me... I watch the locals ruin there lives around meth but the mentality of these people are week in general, They could just as well screw there lives up on soda pops if it were the only thing for them to abuse. 10 broken lawn mores in the front yard grass as high a there knees, cars that don't run and crying ass snotty nosed shitty diapered babies hanging off saggy tittied mommas in bathrobe with needle marks slam up to there shoulder on every porch, these people are the ones that give the drug a bad name and fuels the WOD's. I would refuse to even get one of these types high much less sell anything to them other than a buss ticket out of this fucking town. Looking from the outside in reminds me of a wild pack of rats (informants) feeding off each other leaving shit droppings everywhere they go, Only place I ever seen were people hang out with the very ones that snitched them out and knowledgeable of this fact. These are the two week day trippers, tweeters. Night freaks and they all have one sure thing in common and that is week minds.

[SHORTY]

Why would anyone want to stay awake for more than ~24hrs anyway?
I feel best when i am at the mid point between needing to sleep and getting too much sleep.  When i sleep for 2 long its like my mind is racing and although i do get alot done i also tend to make stupid mistakes.  Not enough sleep and i make even more stupid mistakes but at a slower rate.  IN the middle of the 2 much and 2 little i make few if any mistakes and am still twice as fast as my competitors.  I find that a few hours sleep a night with the occasional sleepless night, when neccessary to complete a project, seems to work best for me.

[what_monkey]

It is not physiologically possible for the brain to go for 2 weeks without sleep. After so many days (it would be different for each individual,maybe 5 or 6 days)your brain will just shut down on its own,with out any kind of warning and you may or may not even rememeber it happening.You could be driving, walking down the street, in the middle of a conversation with someone...then snap...you're in the middle of a dream. After 3 or 4 days you should not drive, work with equipment, or do anything else that could harm yourself or others. I'm dead serious...you will not have even the slightest clue before your brain just shuts down.
It could be anywhere, anytime. I know some users can probably go beyond  4,5 or 6 days, but they are putting themselves at risk every time they go this long.

[what_monkey]

Hello Hammer

I don't mean to personally flame you for this, but you are right, you are NOT a Dr., I am, and you are 100% wrong. I know you're the old  slamm'n pro, but you are wrong, it IS a medical fact that the human brain must have sleep and if it does not get it, it will automatically shut down whether you want it to or not. I'm not really impressed with how long you can stay awake,(which is why you jumped to a conclusion about my post) the exact number of days isn't important. What IS important is the FACT that if we over do it we could be putting ourselves or others around us in danger.

When I started reading your post I thought you were honestly trying to make a legititmate point, but then I realized you were starting to sound just like the people you were posting about.

Your years of wisdom and hard won insights put you in a  unique position to really give some great advice. We are lucky that you take the the time to share your thoughts with us, but I wish you would be a little more open minded about the possibility that some of us might actually have a brain.

I'm sorry if I pissed you off.....Its just that I hate to see your good advice mixed with bad judgement.

[squeamish]

[barkingburro]

it has already been said but i'll reiterate. take care of your mind and body and you can and will be fine. don't let your senses outwit your mind. think about what is goinig on and the state u are in before reacting to the things u hear and/or see. after a while the meth monsters become your friendly and amusing companions.

seriously though, it is NOT impossible to stay awake for 14 days, i have done it several times and go 5-9 days regularly. and i have for approx. 8 years. i have a set of rules to follow when doped and make myself stick to em. i eat every 4 hours, especially protiens and simple carbs, i take a multivitamin every day and a b complex on top of that, i drink water every 2 hours (4-8oz), i don't sleep but do meditate for 1/2 hour every day, if going for a long stint (7 days or more) i take a small dose of xanax, valium, or klonapin each day at the same time every day, this lets my muscles relax and shed some of the stresses that wear us out. i shower every 24 - 48 hours, brush my teeth 2 times a day, use eye drops every 8 hours or so, wash my hands and face with regularity, especially since i have facial hair. i do my best not to pick at my skin, when i do crash i try to always shower before hand. (it's the after sex crash that often prevents me from doing that tho) it seems like pretty basic and stupid stuff, but it makes all the difference in my opinion. for the record i have been using for ten years smoking for 8 and i never bang. i have no cavities, am slightly underweight, all my hair, no infections in 10 years as i have seen in many others. i rarely get sick and don't have a cough nor do i shake unless i've been up for 9 or 10 days. i'm not trying to brag, just point out that so long as you keep your body healthy in all the other ways u can, using dope regularly for a long period of time is not all that detrimental.

now i do have to admit that i have done iq tests on a day by day basis several times and i have found that i have scored a loss in iq for each additional day i was awake. if i was taking care of my self the slide was rather slow, (2-5 points daily) but if i was not eating or drinking enough water the slide was very high (11-14 points daily). incidentally i have never outscored my sober score when on dope. i have matched it, but never gotten a higher score.

my 40 cents

[gluecifer69]

now i do have to admit that i have done iq tests on a day by day basis several times and i have found that i have scored a loss in iq for each additional day i was awake. if i was taking care of my self the slide was rather slow, (2-5 points daily) but if i was not eating or drinking enough water the slide was very high (11-14 points daily). incidentally i have never outscored my sober score when on dope. i have matched it, but never gotten a higher score

Interesting, do any other bees have a means of comparing sober intelligence to under the influence of MA intelligence?
Personally I have never tested myself as swibb does, but through college in the past, have noticed a decline in the ability to learn and/or score well on tests while on dope binges.
Swim has also used benzos while on meth, but not in the way swibb describes.  Swim usually will take benzos about 4 to 8 eight hours before "crashing out".
This is to ensure some quality sleep in swim's case.  At least eight hours.
Another habit that swim is used to while using MA is always leaving himself some meth to use after the initial "crash out".  Swim almost always leaves him self one eighth to one quarter of a gram to use the following day or two after the sleep from a long binge.  It really helps to overcome any hangover (maybe form benzos in swim's case) or feelings of laziness that come after the big binge is over.  Swim does not use enough to get "wired", only just enough to kill any drowsiness and then stop with usage.
Swim has found that weening off the meth like this is much better than abrubtly stopping usage.  Using MA like this also helps swim with tasks and chores that might have otherwise been put aside or completly overlooked.

[ahgreich]

swihm has suffered most of the mentioned symptoms - research shows that
1. sleep deprivation causes drastic alterations in thy hormones, quickly. Cortosol/one in particular and some immunological things as well.
2. Meth by itself can cause vasculitis and myopathies of muscle tissue - combine meth with a lack of cortisone from sleep deprivation, and you have inflammation unencumbered by the normal defenses.

so, sleep every night.

[superman]

nearly every substance i've grown very fond of eventually founbd a way to let me no that it wzs time to quit.  lsd gave me daily flashbacks, mushrooms i developed an excruciating allergy to, marijuana made me a antisocial sloth, ketamine gave sever abdominal pain and acid reflux, ecstasy stopped getting me high and instantly made me sketchy for days,  coke is now becoming void of good effects and becoming a purely physiological high.

but the great part is every single one of these drugs now produces the desired effects.   only very large break was needed.   the same symtoms redevelop quickly however,   so infrequent doses or short, far apart binges are the way to go.

am i unique in this?   i've yet to encounter a drug that can keep me in it's grasps,   even oxycontin and fentanyl lost thier magic

[geezmeister]

You just haven't had enough coke. Maybe you have to be an addict or a habitual user or whatever you wish to call it, but cocaine tends to be a self-limiting addiction. As the addiction progresses, you lose so many serotonin receptors it simply no longer has any euphoroic effect, and any overdosage results in instant paranoia. Finally the paranoia makes you realize it just isn't fun anymore, and you quit. The other part of cocaine's self limiting nature, is that you usually run out of money about the time you no longer get off on coke. Coke did nothing to me but swell my sinuses closed and make me paranoid when I finally laid it down.

Perhaps this only happens if you do it continuously for a long enough time. It certainly happens, and did to me.


My marijuana use is basically infrequent, and has been for years; I have finally recovered enough from taking life too damned seriously to be able to enjoy it again. I no longer care to indulge in lsd or mushrooms. I will probably always be willing to trip occasionally on mescaline. Alcohol doesn't call my name anymore at all, and I am very glad of that fact.

I have used methamphetamine as my drug of choice longer than I have any other drug. It still does the same things to me it did when I first began using it regularly.

[superman]

geez, your experience with it is definately consistant with what i have abserved in other around me however my own is different.   over the course of a few months i gradually got into sniffing infrequently, but in large amounts.  then i tried smoking it,   i've zipped thru qp's many times this way.  now i only first tried smoking about 6 mths ago.   since then everyone around me who has smoked has succummed to addiciton.   i'd say everyone after time develops a weird state while on the drug, paranoia being popular,  cleaning, organization and such being another popular one.  coke doesn't get me high now.   a few days ago i did a massive line but the primary effects are trembling jaw and jitters.  and even smoking produces primarily typical pysiological overstimulation effects(since i try to achieve a high by doing much more).   no euphoria, no cleaning mode.   i just burn right out, instantly.   relative to what happened with mdma.   no high, instant sketchyness.

hopefully one day we will discover that there is a bioligcal mechanism behind my experiences with habituation and will learn to exploit such mechanisms to help overcome addictions

[geezmeister]

superman, your cocaine days are over. You are chronically low on serotonin receptors, and likely would benefit from some SSRI's. If coke does not do what it once did, move on. You will merely do further damage by continued use. Quit while you are ahead. It can take a long time to get the neurotransmitter balance back to a semi-normal status after long term cocaine use. If you want that organization thing, a little meth will do the same thing. without the serotonin receptor destruction.

[elfspice]

My personal preference for using meth, when i am, is to mostly just take low doses that just get me awake and going feeling good and concentrating (my iq may not go up but my organisational skills and self-satisfaction in activity goes through the roof), and occasionally take some bigger doses, maybe one or two and be asleep again within 36 hours. I find the best time to take meth is right after a good night's sleep and a nice filling breakfast. And especially if i've been working my ass off physically (for example like i did a while back, as i built an extension to my gf's house) i like to have days off it and not go mad and work my ass off, as i am not as fit as i would like to be (and would most probably become if i could keep using the little dose in the morning on a regular basis, and got my hands on some rollerblades or a skateboard)... It's frustrating for me, i don't know what is wrong with me but for about 6 years (the change dates back to a breakup with a gf) i have ceased to be bouncing off the walls when i wake up in the morning, and this ruins my whole day usually. when i dose up on an effective psychostimulant all that inertia goes away and so does any lingering depression stemming from my frustration with my inertia. I wish i could just treat myself as i feel i need to be instead of having some stupid pharmaceutical industry telling me that i have to experience months and years of excruciating frustration while trying to find a doctor who actually figures out what i need and gives it to me *sigh*

and funny enough, when i dose on meth, i don't want to take anything else. I find pot ruins my focus and i would only take alcohol at the same time in rare situations of a purely social binge (of which i have only really had one, the rest i spent the time writing or drawing pictures) It even used to dramatically decrease my urge to smoke tobacco (which i don't smoke anymore) while i was tweaking out, i would be so busy with my pen and what i was doing on the paper that i didn't have enough interest in *anything* other than the drawing or writing, smoking the cigarettes was almost done perfunctorily, they do seem to reduce the muscle clonus a little which pot does a lot better, but pot ruins mental focus. But I find the purer and cleaner the gear is the less i want or need anything, and the less it fucks with my body temperature and appetite (as ephedrines tend to do)

I think it's a good drug which has been fucked up by being made illegal. Pharmaceutical grade meth is relatively safe to use compared with the strange concoctions that come out of most labs. It is not actually that hard to make it that clean but the 'rushes' and other stupid things that people like about their crank as opposed to the pure methamphetamine means that a lot of people's ideas about what amphetamines are supposed to do for you are distorted. Plus the misinformation, and like here in nz, the demonisation of the drug...

*sigh again*

[barkingburro]

has anyone heard anything concerning an organic parasite that is infecting some coke (especially bangers) users? not sure if this is total BS or not but swibbs seen several users in his area (a mexico border state) come down with very nasty brown recluse bite type of boils. a few peeps were first told it was a staph infection but recently a couple of users have been told by the emergency room docs it is a parasitic infection.

[Rhodium]

Necrotizing fasciitis: "The flesh-eating bacteria"

http://www.bact.wisc.edu%3A81/ScienceEd/stories/storyReader%2489

[ChemoSabe]

That's truly some hideous bacteria.

The stuff waking nightmares are made of.

[embezzler]

in my country where some flesh eating bacteria infested heroin a few years back took out a few i.v. drug users as i recall. it was a wet dream for the police who i suspect exaggerated the thing

[Wicked_Rain]

SWIM has two friends that suffer from the same type thing. sometimes they devolop severe swellings either on the top side of the right wrist or on the bottom side of the right elbow. large angry looking red swellings that look like infections yet nothing ever comes out of them the way it does with an actual infection. always on the right wrist or elbow too. the product they do is from I2/RP rxn`s. they both bang it, smoke it, and take it orally so its hard to pinpoint which delivery method it might be. in SWIM`s experience the swellings look like something that might be from dirty needles but they swear they use clean shit and SWIM believes em on that point as he knows em both very well. might it be unclean product, say like RP not cleaned out completley? another thing is the two guys are brothers, might it be a genetic thing? SWIM has done some of the same product as them altho SWIM only imbibes on 3-5 day runs once a month or every other month on average whereas they seem to have made a career out of the shit. SWIM has never had so much a pimple form much less swelling on that scale. for the record SWIM isnt new to this game. he has been doing rxn`s of various types since 1979 and is well into his 40`s. could it be perhaps they just do too much product never letting themselves get cleaned out the way SWIM does?

[Wicked_Rain]

SWIM dont bang the shit and what you said in your reply is exactley what SWIM has been telling them but as you know they wont listen till one of there arms rots off lol. its the nature of the beast for some. just thought it odd how some are more prone to it than others and these two are brothers and both have the same symptoms. Thank You for your input. SWIM agrees and intends to tell the dumbass`s the dreaded "itold you so" lol.

[elfspice]

sometimes the sleep is stolen back from you in tiny spirts, even 10 or 30 seconds, you just become asleep for a moment.

If you manage to, for real, prevent yourself from even this 30 second micronap, for 20 days, your body temperature starts to drop uncontrollably (it can start at about 14 days i believe) and if it goes on for long enough, you will just literally drop dead, because every cell in your body has ceased metabolising energy.

this is what happens in chinese water torture.

It seems that sleep is essential to maintaining the metabolic system and if it isn't done regularly the whole system slows down. people who use meth all the time and spend so long awake are depleting every single resource their body has, because it is during sleep cycles that the brain (well, to be exact, the endocrine system) puts out the repair signals (i believe these are actually tryptamines)

If you didn't remember any lost time during a long stretch that means you only had the micronaps. micronaps can even be as brief as a few seconds, even barely longer than the time it takes to blink your eyes - in fact the micronaps usually occur when nobody is around at the moment you blink. It is for this reason that one should definitely not drive a vehicle beyond 3 days of awakeness, as i know from my experiences that 3 days is the practical limit of wakefulness, from that point on the decline is very rapid.

The thing about voices and hallucinations, ppl are probably going to flame me for this but i have good reason for believing this. you are picking up on real psychic energies around you, and noticing subtleties, such as ultra subtle changes in the light caused by a bird flying past and casting a shadow on a slightly reflective object that is putting a small amount of light change in your peripheral vision. the peripheral vision is rich in the fast regenerating light cones (black and white) which is sensitive to rapid changes. When one is dosed on methamphetamine, the amount of light getting into the eye is increased by the dialation. Thus, things that might have completely missed your attention become a lot more visible to your eyes.

I don't really know why they appear to be people or why one can hear voices in noise and all that, but it's tied in somehow with the neocortex's visual pattern matching processes. I used to get shadow people just from chronic pot smoking and mild sleep deprivation caused by working as a prostitute and using caffeine to keep me alert. I used to often even see my cat as a shadow person, this persisted for quite some time.

I don't believe that they are 'just' optical illusions and the results of an exhausted neocortex which cannot properly filter your sensory input. There is another factor.

Scientists in the western world, being largely christian, have had a lot of conditioning from their religious background which has made them actively try to stamp out people doing scientific research into psychic phenomena. In some parts of the world (as our russian friends might know) PSI research is a valid avenue of science and quite a bit is now known.

I believe that emotions have substance, and that there are energies/entities that are animated by these substances, and these creatures, in old mythology, were called 'shades'. The hallucinations of voices are also not just hallucinations either, these energies also manifest in the form of voices and they can speak things to you.

schizophrenics are people who have been born with this, as i prefer to call it 'untuned psychic antennae', really it is just a sensitivity to super subtle sensory input - normals can screen it out, but schizophrenics can't. There are swarms of entities floating around us all the time, of various kinds, every manifest form has an animating spirit and every strong emotional expression in a place can get permanently stuck in that place.

like a simple but silly example, once i was visiting this didge player i knew, who lived near nimbin, nsw, and on one occasion as i went to walk out the door, i don't remember why i wanted to, i was just at a loose end and wanted to - as i walked out i got this urge to do a 360 turn before walking out, and one of the people in the house told me that a friend of theirs who used to live in their house not that long before frequently did a 360 degree turn when walking out the front door, just as i had done.

also, from my personal experience of using meth, i have found that i become extremely good at reading tarot cards and really getting to the core of issues that the person is asking about. In fact, i don't even need to use the cards at all usually. I have always been quite sensitive to people's emotions, and when i have recently dosed on meth (not while i'm high, afterwards) i tend to be very quick at picking up the emotional content that a person is experiencing.

I've now been starting to be dosed with ritalin, and even ritalin helps me become more psychic too. although, it's not as effective as methamphetamine (i've not yet taken dex afaik, also i believe that the 'speed' i used to take when i was like 17 years old, was actually extracted phentermine, because it did the same thing to my nasal mucus as a labeled phentermine pill)

I've come to the conclusion that i am actually a very psychic person but that i don't have the courage of to express the thoughts that enter my head unless my dopamine levels are high enough. In fact, it's kinda like, without the dopamine increasing drug, the info is all still coming in, but my conscious mind is all foggy and i can't even hear my own damn thoughts properly, let alone tuning into the psychic impressions that i receive.

[toltec]

It is unbelieveable to me that this turned out to be such a big thread.h3po3 is out for me.No other method has produced such health problems as i posted.the swelling that I had in my hands takes about two months too go down and heal.this is unaceptable.I used to go many days without sleep when I was younger,sure I have sseen the "spirits or the things that are not there",but when my body has enough I would just pass out.I don't do things like that anymore,Why?because I have found that life is worth liveing and I no longer do so much meth as to "fade into the other world"
besides I got tierd of sobering up only to find out I had done things that I never would have dreamed of while sober,but then it could be that I am just Older now,Man I have woke up in motels before next to people I didn't know and had to ask the manager how long I had been there.took me three weeeks one time(many years ago) to go from lasvegas to chicago only because I left las vegas with a OZ of red rock,At the start of that trip I weighed 210lb.when I got to chicago I weighed 143lbs.never again
I try to take care of myself now

[abominator]

I left las vegas with a OZ of red rock

Swim thinks that maybee you just identified your health problem.   If your dope was red, then you were obviously consuming impure dope, not methamphetamine.  There is a big difference.  Pure meth is colorless and should be recrystallized to remove impurities, this is assuming one prepared it right in the first place.

[mindbaby]

Rhodium: Hopefully you find the post worthy and not too terribly written..

Actually posting isn't my greatest quality, but this issue is close to home and will hopefully help fellow bee's avoid a very painful and DEBILATATING illness.  I personally had my first major attack this year, which had me bed stricken for a week, unable to even get into the bathtub alone! let alone walk and only from 'gout' which solely in my knees.

Now before any fello bees debate my post, let me say you have too much free time and energy on your hands, also please read the whole post.

In ref. to swelling of joints (especially in men are the knees, feet/toes, and spine 'ankylosing spondylitis'), this is due to 2 factors (in my opinion): consuming the wrong foods (bad diet, bubba!!) and FAILING to consume the proper foods. 

('yeppers, you may call my diet gross, but I LIKE IT, am use to it, and IT KEEPS ME HEALTHIER THAN YOU' <--- quite often re-mentioned close friends... Comon, try some tofu, rice cakes, fruit, vegetables, soy milk, etc.

glucosamine and chondroitin sulfates (repair damaged joints:  rebuilds the internal structuce of the cartiledge so that it once again becomes strong and healthy)

Glucosamine, has several important functions in the joints, produced in small qtys in the body from glucose and amino acids.  Can be ingested from in very small qtys from certain foods.  This substance stimulates the production of and serves as raw material for the water-loving proteoglycans, and other special proteins call glycosaminoglycans (GACs) that bind water in the cartilage matrix.

Glucosamine not only successfully quells pain & other symptoms of 'osteoarthitis', it does so more effectively than ibuprofen & other popular arthitis remedies.  (40 patient double-blind study comparing glucosamine to ibuprofen).

Chondroitin:
By itself, glucosamine is a powerfully tool against osteoarthitis, but only half the amazing team of nat. substances offering a way to healthy joints.
Remember the proteoglycan molecules that embed themselves in the spaces in the collagen netting that gives structure to the cartilage in joints? Imaging that you're looking into the proteoglycans.  You'll see "trees", with numerous branches jutting out from the trunk. Growing out of each of the branches are about a hundred smaller brances made of long chains of chondroitin sulfates.  It's these chains in proteoglycans that actually draw in the cushioning and nourishing synovial fluid.  Chondroitin sulfates also help prevent premature breakdown of cartilage in two ways: they stop the naturally occuring enzymes from going haywire and "chewing" up carilage; and they inhibit other enzymes from shutting off the flow of nutrients to the cartilage.

Another extremely beneficial treatment/medicine in addition to a preventative medicine would be the group anthocyanidins which are naturally occuring in a handful of fruits.

Cherries are the most notorious and well known fruit, to sufferers of Gout and arthitis in general for their relief and effect on the arthritis.  Alot of web searches regarding gout, arthritis, and cherries will field you plenty of info which equals "eat the damn cherries).

I personally have an great interest in not only identifying all naturally occuring anthocyanidins but synthesizing similar compounds and researching their effect on arthritis.  I was utterly shocked to find out that only over the past 4 years has any research really gone into this area.  At this point they have barely identified some of the compounds in Cherries alone, let along have any research of info on their effects, routes, methods, homologues, and similar synthetics.

Just along that point, you can not even locate the properties for anthocyanidins including BP (thinking my first thoughts, extraction for example).

Gout causes:
Apparently, high levels of Uric acid, produced from urate, both in our blood strem are stored and crystalize in the joints which causes the swelling and horific pain.  Much of the time, we're (i too was) consuming foods which contribute to the production of the uric acid/arthitis causing substances, i.e. alcohol, carbonated beverages like soda pop, etc.  Additionally, you MUST change your diet IF you want to get better and stay better.

Alcohol:
QUIT DRINKING, you drunk moron.  Keeping this item short & simple,
1) Early this summer, out car shopping, got to talking with owner of a lot, sitting with leg up and eating cherries in one of the offices, lotta talking being him sharing info on this with me.  His friend who was present said "that's why alot of drunks are crippled and limping around"..  It stuck with me and made sense,
2) I had been a 'functional closet' alcoholic for 7 years straigt, with friends and family only knowing I drank, a 6+ beers a night and black russians minimum including throughout the day many times.  I can personally TESTEEfi that alcohol definately helps give ya more than ya bargained for.

ya best get shopping online for yee new cain!    -----> just a lil'humor.

Meth runs and arthritis:
My attack came during a 2 or 3 day run, reason inpart being lack of liquids consumed.  DRINKING LOTS OF LIQUID, is vital for allowing the body to flush itself, especially of uric acid.  I personally don't drink enough liquids anyways, let alone when high, just kinda forget it.  If you are having issues during or soon after meth runs, seriously look at this!

One example case:
An neighbor of mine, older gentleman, whom I told about my gout condition after having it shared his battle scars.  he said his fingers were deformed now from a previous attack and showed me them, pretty scary.  He is probably an alcoholic he did admit he drinks beer, and in the past has mentioned it and the bar he goes to.  I questioned him greatly regarding whether or not he knew about cherries, diet, etc..  Not a friggin clue, it was over his head, he didn't even have an interest in what I was talking about, thus I shut up and didn't bother.  But don't fear, the doctor is here, he was on prescription meds, oh yeah, they must help, right? fu*k NO!  Indomethacin is a popular scrip for this condition, too bad it's only a pain killer and doesn't FIX anything in the body, let alone prevent anything, but rather mask the symptom(s).

Okay, it's late, 5:30 am, I'm done babbling having lost track of where I'm at or what I've said..  Help me, please, help me just say NO..  To what? I must know.

Some of the info above is ref'd from Maximizing Arthitis Cure (Jason Theodosakis, MD MS MPH, Brenda Adderly MHA, and Barry Fox PHD) which is solely on the glucosamines and chondroitin, the remainer was off the top of my head (complain to someone who cares). I have addtl info and research on this topic and would be glad to scan MAC (260 pages) or other hardcopy books in my library as well and/or trade plenty of chem data/files/research..  I enjoy expanding my knowedlge, screw uncle dick.  And if ya have a spare chromatography machine just lying around that ya don't need, I'll take it! 

-Mind

[toltec]

Well after some time of useing rp instead of h3p03 I am haveing the same hea;lth problems,Not haveing accesss to annie for a good Birch.I cannot test that ,but for now my sex filled meth days are over.Dam it,I just can't stand the two month healing proccess.It is not worth it.I wish there was something else I could make with as much ease as meth.

[toltec]