My last MBRP Post, The easiest way!!!!

[ADDkid]

MBRP is a pain in the ass to deal with; Swig has done different things like acetone, which I wrote up about. (By the way I never said that acetone mixes with water).  Acetone is a bitch to deal with, what you end up with is a big headache, and really fucking broke. The following is exactly how swig does it:

12 50 book packages are collected.  Swig then tears off the paper back of one pack at a time, which takes about 15 min for each package, although can be done faster with other people.  Then before going to another case, swig nicely cuts just the red strip off with scissors.  You don’t have to do it this way, you can do it all at once for each part, I just do it this way because the change of things keeps swig from getting too bored.  Also try to watch a movie when you are doing this, goes by faster.  Also make sure you don’t have a lot of paper left off the red strips, it will absorb all the solvent.
Now the strips are put in a standard Pyrex tray.  I put 50 strips at one time.  Then cover with IPA, for 5-10 min.  Swig then uses his finger to remove the red.  This is done twice (2 packs) before dumping the fluid and MPRP in a 150mL beaker that I will deal with later.  I was able to do this with only one bottle of IPA.  After the first six packs are done, I warm, and scrap the shit and dirty red.  Don’t worry, this looks like shit, but she will hold her head up again.  Once the 12 packs or done, take a razor blade and just go at it for a while trying to make the red into many particles.  Then you will need to put this in a flask with HCl.  You could let it sit for 2 hours, I let mine sit for about 4 days, I like the pure shit.  Now do this with some diluted H2SO4, sit for a day or so,(at least that is what I do).  Rinse with water.  You will notice that the fluid is easily decanted off without taking the Red P. with it.  Do this until the water is clear.  Does acetone wash, followed by much D-H2O, and now you got the good shit. ADDkid  Final Yield 6 grams of the cleanest that can possibly be made from MP.

[kris_1108]

Cool ADDkid thanks for the info.
Ill have to give it a go, this is my current procedure.

*Cut off strikers

*Put 'em in a jar with methylated spirits (easily available and just $3/lt here in oz)

*Shake like fuck. Swap arms and shake like fuck again.

*Shake with your feet once your arms get tired (optional)

*Poor the whole lot out into a breakfast type bowl

*Quickly pull em out one by one , if theres a bit of rp on them, sit it flat near the rim of the bowl and rub it with your trusty finger, then soughta dunk it in to rinse it. (These are big strikers, ~20mmx70mm)

*Pour all of this into a beaker. And rinse the last bit outta the bowl into the beaker with metho

*Put the beaker on a hotplate and let the solution boil for a few mins , then let it cool. Not all of the rp will settle, so, decant through 2x coffe filters. They will catch a fair bit, tear them flat and squirt the rp off, through the funnel & back down into the beaker using a pipette with acetone in it

*do the same as prev. step but boil in acetone, and do the pipette thing again but with dh20 in the pipette

*do a hcl boil. dilute the hcl to 3x original amount, AFTER the hcl boil

*do a water boil, but put acetone (& not dh20) in the pipette when you squirt off the rp from the dh20 boil/filter process

*add a bit more acetone, swirl around and dump into pyrex dish or bowl or something

*add a bit more acetone to the beaker and swirl and add to the dish

*let it settle, the acetone should bee clean and clear (thats the way you want your skin to be)

*pour most of the acetone off, (i find it hard pouring shit slowly from a pyrex dish)

*let it dry, loosen it with scraper, powder it with a light bulb or a testube or something

*store in some thing suitable (i use a testube with a stopper)

*now resist the tempation; throw it in the bin, with the peace of mind knowing that you personally know how to extract rp off matchboxes

I used 16 tripple packs, (48 boxes), cost $AUD24 all up and got 9gms of babypowder rp which will fire without heat

This procedure sounds fully time consuming but its not really that bad; it wont take a whole day or anything.

[livid]

what is the acid for? does't the tone remove the glue? doesn't the ipa remove the rp from the paper? if you rub with your finger anyways, there is no need to soak. it comes right off without soaking. all soaking does is contaminates your rp with paper. then you need acid to eat up your paper. that method you speak of is for huge quantities, when it would take to much time to rub each striker.

[weaz1dls]

Here get it done in about 2-3 hours

Post 470733

(weaz1dls: "HCl", Stimulants)

[wareami]

Bees might find that denatured alky contains "Rubber Solvent" and it works wonders on cleaning MBRP in combo woth acetone.
70% denat
30% tone
Final rinse with tone

[301970]

I cut my strips down to just the striker, load them into a fine jewelry cleaning screen set them down in the ultrasonic with IPA turn it on. After about 15 minutes all of the red has fell of the paper I remove the screen with the paper in it decant and evap the ISA and scrape up the red. I will finish with a water wash. I dont like using acids cause I think it has crashed my cooks. I like using Alky mainly so I dont turn into a zombie from huffing acetone fumes and I hate wearing a respirator for all that time.

[CharlieBigpotato]

[wareami]

Yeah....you laugh! It's funny isn't it?
It's easy for you to say, your a !
Teach all the bees to make the best recreational drug on the planet and then make fun of `em when they can't clean their matchbooks anymore cause their all toothless now!

Just kiddin....hehehehe!

[301970]

$350 an OZ for MBRP on the street, $55 for the 500g of Lab Grade rp. Only problem is swim does not have the balls to ask for it she has an account but she just deals with electroplating and gold refining.

[ADDkid]

(Work-up after acid conditions are used to clean MBRP)

Commerical red phosphorus is usually contaminated with small quantities of acidic products.  It should be boiled for 15 minutes with distilled water, allowed to settle, decanted through a Buchner funnel and then washed two or three times with boiling water by decantation.  Finally the phosphorus is completely transferred to the Buchner funnel and washed with hot water until the washings are neutral.  It is dried at 100 C, and kept in a desiccator or in a tightly stoppered bottle.  Vogel,  "Practical Organic Chemistry"  5th Edition.  ADDkid 
P.S. I swear to fucking God this is the last fucking post on Red Phosphorus I ever write.

[SHORTY]

Commerical red phosphorus is usually contaminated with small quantities of acidic products.

The acid won't cause any problems in a HI rxn.  Hypophosphorous acid is what reacts with the iodine to make HI.  It then oxidizes to phosphorous acid and then phosphoric acid.  The rp acts sort of like a time release pill formulation by releasing the Hypo at a very slow rate.

A little Hcl on the rp won't hinder the rxn.

[ADDkid]

[SHORTY]

Why do hypophosphorous acid rxns work?

[ADDkid]

[Rhodium]

Think about it, if I was wrong I think they would have given me bad karma by now

Happy now?

[SHORTY]

I have done my studying and have presented my opinions based on what i have both read and actually tried.  I know that hcl didn't hinder any of my rxns when i used rp. 

P.S.  When doing the RP/I2 reaction, it would be best to put in the p-fed with iodine, and then add the RP, with the min. of water, if no water at first is possible that would be best, but swig has never tried.  You should not make the HI first.

Well i guess this statement is based on hands on experience right?  Cause, if its not then maybe you should read some of the post by some of the respected bees namely WizardX.

[ADDkid]

I am sorry but you guys are wrong, the rxn starts with PI3, I don't care about bad karma anymore, I only care about chemistry.  I don't even feel like wasting my time to prove that you are wrong.  But if you search you will find" ADDkid

P.S.  Just fucking think about it, If the reaction starts with PI3 reacting with the OH to form a halophosphite, it only makes since that you would want that to happen.  I work in a college chemistry lab, and we use BP3 all the time and that has always been taught that way. I never said that it was a must, I was merly giving a suggestion, more then most can in this forum, as it seems. ADDkid

P.S.  How do you know that it did not hinder you reaction.  Your yields might have been better if the HCl was not present on the RP.  There is know way to know.  Also, you are right I have tried this so I would not know!!!!!!!!!but swig has tried both ways!

[Rhodium]

The reaction is routinely performed in a solution containing excess 57% hydriodic acid. Another smidgen of any acid present on the RP is a drop in the ocean...

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/meth.hi-p.html

Post 415909 (missing)

(Rhodium: "Red Phosphorous isn't a catalyst!", Stimulants)

Post 403712

(Rhodium: "more pathways", Stimulants)

[ADDkid]

Rhodium, master bee.. the HI is the reducing agent.  Once the halophospite is completly oxidized and yelding 3 moles of iodoephrine, the HI with heat gives H2 and the Iodine that gives the 2 hydrogens combines with the iodine on the ephrine.  giving I2 that can further react with Phos, that is in the solution. I see what you are saying when you say that Phos is the reduceing agent but HI in my opinon and the lit. that I have read suggest that HI is truly the part of the reduceing.

[Rhodium]

Yes, either HI, PI₃, HPOI₂ or H2PO₂I can turn ephedrine to iodoephedrine.

But if you have no HI in the reaction to begin with, only I₂ and either RP/H₃PO₃/H₃PO₂, then you must agree that it is the Phosphorus-containing compound which ulimately harbors the actual reduction potential (as I₂ certainly isn't the reducing species).

It's a fact that HI is produced in the reaction, but only as a reactive intermediate - it was never there to begin with, and you can perform a reduction with less than the required amount of HI as long as you have enough recyclant (RP etc.) present.

Enough semantics and hair-splitting. How about responding to what I said about acids not inhibiting the reaction instead?

[SHORTY]

ADDkid, would you also suggest boiling the iodine made from tincture in water to remove any hcl present?  Earlier you said you have never tried this and now a few hours later you have tried both ways?

I know that hcl didn't hinder my rp rxns because i have done several with rp that had not been exposed to hcl as well as several in which the rp had been boiled in it.  There was no difference in either yeild nor quality.

[ADDkid]

Swig will respond..

This is what swig has concluded:

1.  Hydrobromic could be used, and using HBr would happen so fast, or with little heat.  The reaction follows the Sn1 mechanism.  The risk of cation rearrangements is very possible. However, a benylic cation is the most stable cation in the reaction, and the product will and should precede smoothly.  Problem:  Will HBr be a strong enough to reduce to methamphetamine?  Maybe, some of it, and even more if Phosphorus is present.
2:  Theory suggest that HI on the Phosphorus will not hinder reaction, but practice suggest otherwise in my opinion.  However HCL will hinder the reaction, and since there is no way to tell exactly how much HCl you have, only a fool would start a reaction with acidic Phosphorus.  ADDkid

[Rhodium]

Problem:  Will HBr be a strong enough to reduce to methamphetamine?  Maybe, some of it, and even more if Phosphorus is present.

HBr isn't a reducing agent.

[geezmeister]

How do you know that [HCl] did not hinder you[r] reaction[?]  Your yields might have been better if the HCl was not present on the RP.  There is know way to know.

If a little HCl was a hindrance to the HI reduction, one should find that pseudo HCl did not react as well as freebase pseudo does. For a time I was of the opinion that since the freebase pseudo would become pseudo HI in an HI environment, and since HI would not be an impediment to the HI reduction, the absence of the HCl must explain why I obtained higher yields with freebase pseudo than I did with pseudo HCl. I kept that opinon for the better part of a year, until a new extraction technique resulted in really clean pseudo HCl from the pills used as the source. With the long wet red phosphorous reflux, and again with the phosphorous acid reflux I obtained yields using HCl as good as those I achieved with the freebase. This experience convinced me that it was the cleanliness of the pseudoephedrine that made the difference in yields, not whether the freebase or salt form was used. The molar yield was virtually the same with either the freebase or the salt form.

That suggests to me that HCl is not an impediment to the HI reduction. (Then again, this observation might mean nothing to this debate. I don't know, I am just providing fodder from my experience for the chemistry-educated to discuss.)

[Nicodem]

The following is slightly off topic and might have already been written before, but since meth cooking isn’t really my field of interests I leave these thoughts for others to chew on.
I don’t know much about the reduction of ephedrine with P and HI but in the school we were taught that the HI reduces some R-OH in R-H by the following reaction scheme:

R-OH + HI ---> R-I +H₂O
R-I + HI ---> R-H + I₂

While the phosphorus reacts with I₂:

2 P + 3 I₂ ---> 2 PI₃

and PI₃ also reacts with the R-OH (as well as with water: R=H):

3 R-OH + PI₃ ---> 3 R-I + H₃PO₃

H₃PO₃ can also react with I₂ in the presence of water:

H₃PO₃ + I₂ + H₂O---> H₃PO₄ + 2 HI

Therefore the function of phosphorous is to shift the equilibrium of the first two reactions by removing iodine and recycling it into hydroiodic acid. At least in theory phosphorus could be exchanged with other acid stable reducents capable of performing the following (formal) reaction:

I₂ + H₃O + 2 e^- ---> 2 HI + O^2-

Though there might be many other reactions to speed up with catalytic effects (?) like:

R-I + H₃PO₃ --->[ R-P⁺(OH)₃ + I^- ]--( + H2O )--> R-H + H₃PO₄ + HI

It is obvious that phosphorous (and hypophosphoric acid) is just ideal, but other less efficacious reducents might perform satisfactorily. For example, the following ones come to my mind: SO₂, H₂S, colloidal S₈, copper (Cu) powder, organic (III) phosphates like Ph₃P, phosphine (PH₃), orthophsphoric acid (H₃PO₃) and compounds decomposing into it in the presence of water (PCl₃, P₂O₃ etc.), SnCl₂ and some others. But note that many are very poisonous gasses (H₂S and PH₃) others just a little less (SO₂) not to mention that they have to be generated and bubbled into the reaction mixture.

[Organikum]

ADDkid:
In the old days when HI reductions were common in industry, what was more than a hundred years ago, hydrochloric acid was used as solvent in those reactions. The need for pressure vessels and the corrosive nature of HCl and HI in addition to the availability of other starting materials caused that these reactions where replaced by other ways.

Solvents useful in HI reductions are:
- conc. HCl
- conc. HI
- conc. acetic acid
- conc. phosphoric acid (85%+ concentration)

In the old days fuming HI was the medium of choice, followed by HCl. GAA and H3PO4 where not cheaply available then.

The reaction as preferred here on this board - the "long wet reflux" uses HI as solvent, produced in the reaction "in situ". For reasons I dont know H3PO4 - phosphoric acid is rarly used although in certain parts of the world its use as solvent is quite common and it works very well and it has advantages. It is to be preferred over acetic acid because it lacks the obnoxious smell has an higher bp and is available OTC and easily concentrated so need arises.

Nicodem, I dont understand the copper-powder named by you. I know it is possible to use copper to scavenge free iodine from discolored HI solutions though. Can you enlighten me?  


PI3 under mainly anhydrous conditions halogenates alcohols faster, at lower temperatures and more completely than HI does for HI halogenation is an equilibrium reaction, PI3 halogenation is not. In the HI halogenation the equilibrium is shifted by the followup HI reduction of the formed iodoephedrine. This says that rather high temperatures and time is needed. All the time HI concentration has to be kept high.

The "long wet reflux" is a good and practical answer. It might be improved by the addition of some phosphoric acid after my best of knowledge. As long the concentration of the H3PO4 is over 85% the amount of acid is not very critical.

Other answers would be, either the use of PI3 (produced beforehand or in situ) under anhydrous conditions followed by the addition of some aqueous HI, or the use of fuming HI in a pressure vessel. This is not so practical at least the fuming HI under pressure isnt.  

ORG