Author Topic: Red P from Phosphoric acid?  (Read 9498 times)

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Drug_Phreak

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Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« on: March 02, 2001, 01:58:00 AM »
I guess the thread I started got lost somehow during the database upgrade. Everything is working a lot faster now by the way  :) . Anyway, this might sound stupid to more knowledgeable bees and whatnot, but is there some kind of way to obtain Red P from Phosphoric acid since it's made from it?




Society exists by chemical affinity, and not otherwise.

PolytheneSam

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2001, 03:23:00 AM »
Yes.  Here's something I recently copied from the library.



terbium

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2001, 08:20:00 AM »
This is indeed a stupid question. Have you been unconscious for the past several months?

Drug_Phreak

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2001, 10:23:00 PM »
PolytheneSam, thanks for the info. So they don't make Phosphoric acid from Red P? This is weird because the Merck Index says they do  ::) , but I see that it doesn't even matter if the Phosphoric acid was made from Red P  :) . Damn, a bee just needs to acquire an electric furnace, calcium phosphate, sand, and coal (which are all available in large quantities and completely unwatched) and they could have Red P up the ying yang. Given that it was done properly and with extreme care. Hey, when they say phosphorus they’re talking about White P right? 




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PolytheneSam

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2001, 01:46:00 AM »
That page came from a book dated 1919 (published or copyrighted). If the Merck Index says that they make phosphoric acid from phosphorus than that's probably true now.  The phosphoric acid and carbon process seems to be older than the one using phosphate, sand and carbon.  I've seen people discuss phosphoric acid here before but I've never seen any details about making phosphorus from it.  I posted something in the Meth forum about this but I didn't know anything about the temperature involved with the phosphoric acid and carbon process then. The threads in the meth forum seem to scroll off a lot faster compared to other forums.  I found that reference after I posted that last thing about the patents.

Drug_Phreak

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2001, 06:14:00 AM »
I've been searching for patents on Red Phosphorus
production too, but I haven't found anything worthwhile yet. I'm gonna go check out those patents that you posted though and hopefully that will help SWINM along their journey. I think more bees should start looking into making their own Red P (and Ephedrine too) these days. I2 seem a lot easier to obtain than Red P. Hay, do you know what the yield would be in this phosphate, sand, and carbon process?  




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PolytheneSam

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2001, 09:06:00 AM »
Here's a better list.
417943 452821 460004 527163 602747 1168495 1274479 4287165 3437379 3366447
You have to look at the low number (<2000000) patents on the USPTO web site using AlternaTIFF.

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html



Hansje

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2001, 12:34:00 PM »
Please be aware that this process makes white phosphorus, which is rather unpleasant stuff.


Hansje Pansje Kevertje.....

PolytheneSam

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2001, 05:32:00 PM »
I also found this:

The phosphates of heavy metals dissociate more readily than calcium phosphate.  It has therefore been proposed to convert the calcium salt first of all into lead phosphate from which the phosphorus could be obtained at a comparatively low temperature.  Another suggested modification is the use of metals as reducing agents instead of carbon:  6NaPO3 + 10Al + 3SiO2 --> 3Na2SiO3 + 5Al2O3 + 6P.  These methods, however, have not become of technical importance.


(from Inorganic Chemistry by F. Ephrain 1954, page 193)

Also see US patents 1648146 and 3923961 which compare tricalcium phosphate, monocalcium phosphate (triple super phosphate) and calcium metaphosphate.


PolytheneSam

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2001, 10:24:00 PM »
Here's an idea I had.  If the temperature wasn't too high then you could probably use a glass retort like the one in the picture.  The still can be flushed with a gas that doesn't react with P, ie. N2. A gas reservoir can be used such as the bell jar in a pan of water as shown in the picture to allow heated gases to expand.  A gas generator is shown on the far right, but if CO2 reacts with the P at a high temperature than it can't be used.  The metal pan under the retort is for safety.  Temperature control for the heater can be provided by the variac shown in the picture. The side arm Erlenmyer flask can have water in it  to cover the phosphorus (white) that distills over.



PVnRT_NC8

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2001, 02:12:00 AM »
um ya might having the whit p in hand go of course back to red phosphorus the real question of course is why bother making meths if ya can sell multikillos of red phosphorus and likely gain the trust of many a good friends i would think/yes?
anyways drip whit p onto carbon sulfide likely could use some kida anciant slags, refuse fron mine heap, thus dripping the white p in uv light this could be done on the move simply poking a pin hole in something dripping the stuuf onto a plate where the slag sit thus outside, forms a beatufuil sludge that is redish black soma addational cleanup may be desirable though i doubt you will in fact bother? ::)


Amethystium

Drug_Phreak

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2001, 12:36:00 AM »
Thanks for the info and suggestions people. I've been reading through all those patents and hopefully SWINM will be experimenting in the near future. SWINM was thinking about buying some White P and messing around with it too, but it's now a watched chem also.  :(




Society exists by chemical affinity, and not otherwise.

PolytheneSam

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2001, 02:45:00 AM »
The process for making phosphoric acid is in this thread, also.


http://www.privacy.org/article.php?sid=620&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0


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goiterjoe

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2001, 09:15:00 AM »
maybe you could hook a high vacuum pump to your setup.  it would lower the melting point, and also evacuate out the air.


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Stonium

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2001, 02:10:00 PM »
Sam: Your title has now been changed. Heh. Hope you like.  :)

Stoni

MMM

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2001, 12:45:00 PM »
:o AAAAArgh. NO! Wait a minute, I don't mean to be disparaging but have you checked out the safety info on WHITE P, yes they used to manufacture it by distilling sand carbon and (Urine, BTW-they used to buy it in the poor quarter after checking it hadn't been watered down by using a hydrometer).
BUT, the white form of P EXPLODES on contact with air and is also very poisonous (all white, red and black are, all poisonous but whites the worst), white is readily absorbed thru the skin and removes calcium from your bones!!!!

So, enough ranting, PLZ check it ALL out before you play!, maybe just use your Phosphoric to generate HI from KI or NaI, sure it needs a greater volume of HI if you don't have the red there recycling, but you wont be blown in an unpleasant way either!!
Keep up the good work!


When the day is bad,and life's a curse
CHEER UP!!! Tomorrow may be Worse!!
('HAGAR' Comic)

PolytheneSam

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2001, 01:18:00 AM »
I like the title, Stonium.  I think it fits.  Thanks.

MMM,  I read these warnings for the last two weeks.  Stonium's post on P and I2 has been in the Newbee forum for a long time for everyone to read.  I never heard of P exploding.  I thought it just caught on fire in the air (above 34-37º C).  I don't think P can explode unless it is mixed with an oxidizer or is finely divided.  I've played with fireworks a lot, too.  I think its an interesting element.  It can also be used to make alkyl halides by mixing an ROH with P and a halogen.  Tryptophol comes to mind......


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MMM

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2001, 11:10:00 AM »
True, explodes may not be strictly accurate, but it does convey a more accurate perception, napalm doesn't explode either. I saw a pic in a book once of a guy in FULL safety suit holding a lump of white P in tongs, the burning sparks were spraying for about 5 meters. Also the Germans used it in WW2, when the lumps of burning P landed on your head the only way to put them out was immersing your head in water, but as soon as you came up for air ... your on fire again. It is really nasty, if you want HI use the phosphoric for that and just use more HI in the reaction (since there's no red to reform it when its used). I personally regard it as similar to generating cyanide, yes you can do it if you're CAREFUL, but do you really want to risk it???
that said, good luck


When the day is bad,and life's a curse
CHEER UP!!! Tomorrow may be Worse!!
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PolytheneSam

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2001, 01:05:00 AM »
What if the WP is kept under water in the receiver that it was first distilled into?  It could probably be converted to RP under water by irradiation and I2 catalyst without even ever exposing it to the air.


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halfapint

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Re: Red P from Phosphoric acid?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2001, 03:12:00 AM »

Another suggested modification is the use of metals as reducing agents instead of carbon:  6NaPO3 + 10Al + 3SiO2 --> 3Na2SiO3 + 5Al2O3 + 6P.  These methods, however, have not become of technical importance.



Nobody has ever noticed, even though this quotation has been repeated on Hive at least 3 times, that they are talking about aluminothermy here. The Goldschmidt process. It's fucking thermite.

Now wait. We are talking here about producing phosphorus in a closed system with no external heat source. No pressure fittings. Nothing coming in, nothing going out, while the batch burns, produces and condenses its phosphorus vapor, leaving you a pool of solidifying white phosphorus safely under water. In which you drop a few grams of iodine and forget about for a week or two, as sunlight safely converts it into red phosphorus, under water.

This is absolutely an order of magnitude less difficult to do for yourself than any kind of furnace technique. The apparatus you need is a retort and alembic, designed and built a thousand years ago. If your culture has never reached the ceramic stage, you can probably use metal for a substitute. Don't stick a thermometer or pyrometer anywhere. You don't want to know how hot it gets. Don't stick a gas fitting on it to purge out the air. The bit of air initially present in the apparatus will blow out into your water receiver as P2O5, instantly converted into harmless dilute phosphoric acid as it hits the water. Don't complicate it. Just light it off, drop the cover on it, and stay the fuck away while it does its job.

Details: The bottom of the reaction vessel has to bee covered with pebbles and sand, lots of it. Thermite gets real hot, melts iron easy. The charge? Anything! Metaphosphoric acid is purest, but any version of phosphoric acid or any phosphate will definitely be reduced by aluminum powder, will definitely produce elemental phosphorus in vapor form, will definitely work. (I don't think you need any sand in your charge. What the fuck for? Well, may bee it sticks to the alumina to keep it out of the vapor train. You can just use the rxn above as a guide, cuz they know and I guess.)

To set off the charge, get real assertive. Don't just stick a magnesium ribbon in the top for like a fuze, it'll fizzle. Give it some help, with a generous primer of magnesium turnings mixed with a solid oxidizer. Not enough rocket mix to blow the top off your rig, or you're in a world of shit. It ain't going to stop, come hell or high water, once it gets started.

The burn might take about a minute, and the P vapor produced has a place to go, under that water. Have a continuous flow of cool water running into your receiver during the burn, the heated excess splashing out. Might even want to stick a few bags of ice in there. No appreciable amounts of any other gases are produced, for the aluminum's making alumina.

Hey, this really does sound like a backyard project now! Shall we make this a method of technical importance?


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