Author Topic: Some results  (Read 10903 times)

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Vitus_Verdegast

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Rf values
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2004, 10:15:00 PM »
These are the Rf values for those who are interested:

silica gel plates, solvent methanol:
dillapiole: 0.58
isodillapiole: 0.57
isodillapiole glycol (formyl ester): 0.52 (taken during performic oxidation after 3 hours of stirring)

silica gel plates, solvent petroleum ether:
isodillapiole glycol (formyl ester): 0.07-0.15 (a streak rather than a spot, probably due to mixture of glycol and ester?)
2,3-dimethoxy-4,5-methylenedioxyphenylacetone: 0.05


ephemeral

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Could advice be given on the appropriate ratio
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2004, 05:26:00 PM »
Could advice be given on the appropriate ratio of acid to glycol for rearrangement.
 The acid molar concentration is there, but swim didnt see how to extrapolate an acid/glycol ratio.  Sorry if it was missed, TFSE is down right now and cant get to a library for a little while.

 Thanks

hypo

  • Guest
no surprise: iso-myristicin works too.
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2004, 09:46:00 PM »
but same problem as vitus: major scorching, so no difference
between HCl/H2SO4 noted. otoh needing only catalytic amounts
of H2SO4 is a huge plus on the aquisition side.


hypo

  • Guest
weirdness
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2004, 09:13:00 AM »
the ketone crystallised overnight to give pretty yellow crystalls,
making me believe that it's of outstanding purity. but the oxime
oiled out. at least the oil is clear and not yellow like it used
to be with H2SO4-ketone. i wonder if MMDP2P needs longer for oximation?


Rhodium

  • Guest
myristicin ketone/oxime mp
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2004, 04:36:00 PM »
I found these references for the myristicin ketone mp:

55°C (from H2O) Scandola; AANLAW; Atti Accad.Naz.Lincei Cl.Sci.Fis.Mat.Nat.Rend.; <5> 21 I; 1912; 49.
(prepared from either isomyristicin dibromide or from beta-nitro-isomyristicin)

49-50°C Takeya, Tetsuya; Okubo, Toru; Nishida, Shoichi; Tobinaga, Seisho; Chem.Pharm.Bull. 33(9), 3599-3607 (1985)
(prepared by Fe/HCl reduction of beta-nitro-isomyristicin)

The oxime is described as prisms, mp 111-112°C (from petroleum ether), referencing Scandola above.


hypo

  • Guest
thank you
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2004, 05:04:00 PM »
no mp of the ketone was taken. next time.

the oxime is starting to crystallise.  :)


Aurelius

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MP
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2004, 09:00:00 AM »
Take a small amount of your oxime back to the ketone- then take the mp.  And be sure to take the mp of your oxime.


hypo

  • Guest
???
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2004, 09:23:00 PM »
> And be sure to take the mp of your oxime.

crude oxime (took 3 days(!) to crystallise):
mp: about 98°C
color: white with a hint of yellow
smell: a hint of the ketone
no recrystallisation will be attempted.

> Take a small amount of your oxime back to the ketone- then take the mp.

what for? the identity is well known.

two notes:
a) H2SO4 rearrangement never gave crystalline oxime. fractionating was
never an option due to scorching.
b) only 50% (pretty exactly!) of the oxime crystallised in the above
way. the rest oiled ot as orange oil on addition of more water. but
this fraction is starting to crystallise too. so my suggestion is to
not add more water than given by sonson. the alcohol (ethanol in this
case) seems to hold the impurities better than the oxime.


otto

  • Guest
working on asarone
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2004, 10:01:00 PM »
TMP2P from asarone1

100 mL tap water, 5 g Na2CO3, 3.5 g KBr (30 mmol), 100 mL acetonitril, asarone (5 g of a 90% pure batch, from vacdest of etheral oil of calamus, 21.4 mmol), were put into a 500 mL beaker. Under magnetic stirring bleach solution was added in portions of 10 mL three times over 10 min. A TLC of the upper phase showed remaining starting material2 and more bleach was added in 1 mL portions (to a total of 36 mL, titrated to be 1.25 mmol/mL, 45 mmols, 2.1 equivalents) until the dissapearance of asarone on TLC. Stirring was continued for 25 min. Then, the upper phase was separated and the lower aqueous extracted twice with 50 mL of ethyl acetate. The combined organic phases were rotavapped and to the residue were added 30 mL of methanole and 100 mL 15% hydrochloric acid. This mixture was kept at 75°C for 90 min with stirring. After cooling down, the mixture was extracted three times with 30 mL of CHCl3. The combined extracts were rotavapped and the residue vacuum-destilled3. 2.16 g (45% molar yield) of a dark yellow oil with the typical smell of TMP2P.

This is the highest yield otto has obtained so far for this reaction. May be 90 min rearrangement time is too short and 75°C are too low a temperature. However, we clarly see that HCl is superior to H2SO4 in rearrangement also for TMP2P.

[1] according to a previous experiment (

Post 427073 (missing)

(otto: "the next day otto tried it.", Novel Discourse)
)
[2] Rf values in

Post 427073 (missing)

(otto: "the next day otto tried it.", Novel Discourse)

[3] during vacdest there was a lot of bumping. This could possibly be circumvented by drying the compound prior to destillation.

psychokitty

  • Guest
What do you think about this?
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2004, 02:47:00 AM »
"There was no forerun and little remained in the flask after . . ."

Chromic:  Do you think that then that the final undistilled ketone product from your aqueous HCl glycol dehydration is clean enough to be used directly in the next reductive amination step?

If so, this new application of HCl could allow one to go directly from the starting alkene all the way to the final amine-HCl without any need to purify the intermediates via possibly unneccessary distillation steps.  Hence, in the future, crystallization of the final amine-HCl might prove to be the only real purification step necessary to get a clean product.

This is just a suggestion for those bees who have often wondered whether tedious vac distillation -- or even just simple distillation -- of intermediates would forever remain necessary.

Rhodium

  • Guest
This is no 'Shortcut World Championships'
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2004, 03:19:00 AM »
I believe that it would be a *very* sucky idea to skip the ketone distillation. There are surely other carbonyl-containing products formed in the peracid oxidation/acid rearrangement procedures, and the Al/Hg will aminate any aldehyde, ketone or carboxylic acid in that mixture. I doubt that a simple recrystallization will remove all those byproducts reliably.


psychokitty

  • Guest
I respect your commitment to purity but . . .
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2004, 07:49:00 AM »
First and foremost, we are scientists here at the Hive.  I'm only interested in determining the full dynamics and parameters of this popular synthesis.  There is valuable scientific knowledge to be had in knowing that one COULD -- theoretically speaking -- carry this synthesis straight-through without the need for vac distillation or simple distillation along the way.

But for what it's worth, I completely agree with you that crystallization at the end would likely not be good enough to remove all of the by-products.  While some may find this alarming, I would say purity of the final product for CONSUMPTION is an area of concern for the black market, fundamentally both a legal and health issue, and not one that should necessarily be limiting to the field of scientific research.

I merely intersted in proving one thing:  That this synthesis can continue to provide relatively pure intermediates by changing the reaction conditions. 

That's all.

abolt

  • Guest
Isosafrole hydrolysis
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2004, 04:52:00 AM »
In a 3L flatbottom flask, fitted with a condensor and magnetic stirring, was added 600 ml dichloromethane and 56 g sodium bicarbonate followed by 180 g (1.11 mol) isosafrole. A solution of performic acid, prepared from 120 ml 50% hydrogen peroxide and 230 ml 85% formic acid, was added dropwise over the course of 3 hours, and the mixture was allowed to stir for an additional 22 hours. The organic layer was separated and washed with 3x 200 ml distilled water. After evaporation of the solvent there was left 255 g of a dark red oil, which was stored in the refridgerator for 12 hours, after which it took on the viscosity of motor oil.

The dark red glycol was dissolved in 250 ml methanol in a 3L flatbottom flask fitted with condensor and magnetic stirring, 400 ml distilled water were added and the mixture was heated to reflux with stirring. 430 ml 30% HCl was added and refluxing was continued for 3 hours and the contents were allowed to cool to room temperature. The bottom dark oily layer was separated off (honey-mint smell) and the aqueous layer was extracted twice with 200 ml DCM. The oil and extracts were pooled and washed twice with 200 ml distilled water, once with 300 ml 10% NaHCO3, and once with 300 ml brine. The bicarbonate washing took on a brown color, the other washings were clear. The solvent was stripped off and the residue was distilled with aspirator vacuum: first came a small forerun (15 ml) of isosafrole, followed by 133 gr rose/golden 3,4-methylenedioxyphenylacetone, an overall yield of 67%.

MDP2P was tested positive with bisulfite.

The remainder left in the distilling flask was 25-28ml tar, which had some transparency to it. Aside from the extra yield, this hydrolysis also seems much cleaner, in appearance and work up. :)

Previous yields using H2SO4 hydrolysis were around 50%.

Well done Chromic.


Rhodium

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