Author Topic: Denatured Alcohol  (Read 10091 times)

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former_chemist

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Denatured Alcohol
« on: July 06, 2002, 02:58:00 AM »
These two links describe denatured alcohol:

http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr20.pdf


http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr21.pdf



A sampling of special denatured alcohol formulas:

all denaturants are added to 100 gals of 95% ethanol

#1 Four gallons of methyl alcohol and either 1/8 advoirpois ounce of denatonium benzoate, N.F.,(BITREX); 1 gallon of methyl isobutyl ketone; 1 gallon of mixed isomers of nitropropane; or 1 gallon of methyl n-butyl ketone.
#3A 5 gallons of methyl alcohol
#3C five gallons of isopropyl alcohol
#23A eight gallons of acetone, U.S.P.
#23H eight gallons of acetone, U.S.P. and  1.5 gallons of isobutyl ketone.
#30 ten gallons of methyl alcohol

Formulas are restricted by use:

Solvents and thinners: 1, 23A and 30
Wood Stains: 1, 3A, 3C, 23A and 30
Solvents, special (restricted sale): 1,3A and 3C
Laquer thinners: 1 and 23A
Propietary Solvents: 1 and 3A
Rubbing Alcohol: 23H

General use of specially denatured alcohol:
Propietary solvents: 1 or 3A plus
1 part gasoline, unleaded gasoline, heptane, or rubber hydrocarbon solvent; and
3 part toluene, ethyl acetate, methyl n-butyl ketone, methyl isobutyl ketone, tert-butyl alcohol, sec-butyl alcohol, nitropropane (mixed isomers), or ethylene glycol mono ethyl ether

Rubbing alcohol is formula 23H with water and other ingredients (one additional denaturant) and optionally perfume, medicinal ingredient, and/or coloring.

Completely denatured alcohol (CDA) follows different rules and formula including that the alcohol be 80% or greater:

#18: 2.5 gallons of either methyl isobutyl ketone, mixed isomers of nitropropane, or methyl n-butyl ketone;
.125 gallons of pyronate or a similar compound;
.5 gallons acetaldol (beta-hydrobutyraldehyde); and
1 gallon of either kerosene, deodorized kerosene, gasoline, unleaded gasoline, rubber hydrocarbon solvent, or heptane

#19: 4 gallons of either methyl isobutyl ketone, mixed isomers of nitropropane, or methyl n-butyl ketone; and
1 gallon of either kerosene, deodorized kerosene, gasoline, unleaded gasoline, rubber hydrocarbon solvent, or heptane

Formulations with more than 4% methanol must be marked with the skull and crossbones and the words "danger","poisonous","vapor harmful","May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed", and "Cannot be made nonpoisonous"

To be sold as "denatured alcohol" solvent or thinner OTC (this is my understanding) it must be a propietary solvent, completely denatured alcohol, formula 1, formula 23A, or Formula 30.

How can you tell the difference between formulations?

CDA that hasn't been processed further is listed as "Completely Denatured Alcohol".  The "Caution - contains poisonous ingredients" usually indicates CDA. A variety of things can be mixed into this stuff and still be called "Completely Denatured Alcohol".  However adding other stuff or higher quantities changes it to "Denatured Alcohol". Some ingredients are unique to completely denatured alcohol:
pyronate, acetaldol and kerosene.

Some ingredients are unique to propietary solvents:
toluene, ethyl acetate, tert-butyl alcohol, sec-butyl alcohol, and ethylene glycol mono ethyl ether

CDA and propietary solvents contain two other ingredients not found in the straight formulas:
heptane and rubber hydrocarbon solvent.

Denatorium Benzoate indicates a formula 1 or propietary solvent derived from formula 1.

Methyl isobutyl ketone; mixed isomers of nitropropane; or methyl n-butyl ketone, indicate that the formula isn't #30 or #23A.

The methyl alcohol content provides another method of distiguishing:
Only Formula 30 and propietary solvents from formula 3A will definitely have a warning for more than 4% Methyl Alcohol. But Formula 1 and propietary solvents derived from formula 1 may still have the warning even though they don't contain 4%. Formula 23A and CDA won't have a methyl alcohol warning.

The best alcohol is formula 30 or formula 23A.  CDA or propietary solvent may be acceptable if it doesn't have kerosene, gasoline, or rubber solvent.  Not all ingredients may be listed on the can.  Every paint supply or hardware store should have MSDS on file.  Ask for one.  They are required to provide it.

---
bored people shouldn't have access to the internet  :P

ClearLight

  • Guest
Ace Hardware
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2002, 03:23:00 AM »

 Was looking at the ace hardware denatured EtOH. Warning label says, "exposure to benzene"!!!  I wondered what that "rubber solvent" was....



Infinite Radiant Light - THKRA

Scottydog

  • Guest
How can one not learn anything from the chemist?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2002, 03:24:00 AM »
In Reply to:
___________________

Every paint supply or hardware store should have MSDS on file. Ask for one. They are required to provide it.
________________________________

Consumer rights! Instead of having the hardware store clerks asking us a hundred questions as to the legitimate uses of certain OTC solvents etc. We could theoretically be putting these people to work bringing us information as to what is being added to their products.

"Sir uh what are you using the Xylol and Acetone for?" "Don't worry about it cheif... You writing a fucking book? No... If so you can keep that chapter out. By the way go bring me the MSDS on this denatured here. Swis heard you are adding some kind of rubber solvent to your denatured... What's up with that anyway?"

Swis hears the acetone cleans up the impurities from the denatured...

Edit: From reading a recent MSDS it was obvious that there is some water content and must be dried to prevent activation of dry matrix formulations in OTC "E".

Question is how much E is lost if one doesn't?
___________
Refuse/Resist

Rhodium

  • Guest
In the case of MDP2P/MeNH 2 /NaBH 4 , the yield ...
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2002, 04:30:00 AM »
In the case of MDP2P/MeNH2/NaBH4, the yield is 80%+ if done anhydrous, and more like 60%+ if some water is allowed to stay in the reaction mixture.


Entropy just isn't what it used to be.

raffike

  • Guest
And if P2P/MeNH2/NaBH4 and water is present then ...
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2002, 09:21:00 AM »
And if P2P/MeNH2/NaBH4 and water is present then yield is very low.

A friend with speed is a friend indeed

terbium

  • Guest
80 - 85% yield.
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2002, 10:51:00 AM »
And if P2P/MeNH2/NaBH4 and water is present then yield is very low.
No, no, no! It is simple to get 80-85% yield of MDMA or methamphetamine using NaBH4 as the reducing agent and without using a drying agent.

raffike

  • Guest
But swim heard somewhere that water ruins ...
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2002, 11:00:00 AM »
But swim heard somewhere that water ruins p2p--> meth reaction and one must use something that isolates water that forms during reaction.Silicagel or something.

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/meth-nabh4.html



A friend with speed is a friend indeed

terbium

  • Guest
Incorrect.
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2002, 11:07:00 AM »
But swim heard somewhere that water ruins p2p--> meth reaction and one must use something that isolates water that forms during reaction.Silicagel or something.
That is not correct. Again, it is easy to get an 80-85% yeild of MDMA or methamphetamine using NaBH4 as the reducing agent and without using silica gel or any other drying agent. I had a long exchange with LabTop about this over the past couple of years and I believe that he finally conceded this point.

raffike

  • Guest
Anyway this makes synth with NaBH4 more easier.
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2002, 11:18:00 AM »
Anyway this makes synth with NaBH4 more easier.And little correction should be made in LabTop's writeup.

A friend with speed is a friend indeed

Osmium

  • Guest
All you moonshiners should invest in a decent ...
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2002, 01:53:00 PM »
All you moonshiners should invest in a decent column instead and convert that denatured alcohol back into pristine booze. When you are busted you will serve much less prison time, and when done on a bigger scale this could be quite rewarding.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

goiterjoe

  • Guest
how cheap is that?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2002, 02:04:00 PM »
I think it would be a lot easier to distill alcohol from fermented grain and not have to worry about methanol contamination.  Plus, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy yeast, grain, and sugar than it would be to buy denatured alcohol.  Just my take on things.  I have known people to run a still that way in VA.  One of them served 3 years of a 10 year sentence.  He never made shit for money off of it either, not that he is the best financial manager anyway... :P

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

Osmium

  • Guest
> I think it would be a lot easier to distill ...
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2002, 03:38:00 PM »
> I think it would be a lot easier to distill alcohol from
> fermented grain and not have to worry about methanol
> contamination. 

Do you understand the principle of distillation and what columns do?

> Plus, it would be a hell of a lot cheaper to buy yeast,
> grain, and sugar than it would be to buy denatured alcohol.

1 liter of denatured alcohol costs about $/€1.50 resale, and even less when you buy bulk. If you can make booze cheaper than that with yeast, sugar, lots of time and a big ass still then fine, prove me wrong.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

goiterjoe

  • Guest
azeotropes
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2002, 06:40:00 PM »
It was my understanding that methanol forms an azeotrope with ethanol and will not distill out first if that happens to be the adulterant.

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

Chromic

  • Guest
No meoh/etoh azeotrope
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2002, 07:57:00 PM »
There is no meoh/etoh azeotrope.

I would hesitate to drink etoh distilled from denatured alcohol, but I'm sure it's safe if you've successfully analyzed the distillate for any contamination. (who has a GC to do this though?)

former_chemist

  • Guest
Replies to a bunch of stuff
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2002, 10:40:00 PM »
What to do if they want to know why you want it: Act indignant but have a good excuse, and yes ask for the MSDS your excuse involves a work place.  And don't hesitate to tell the manager you think their employee is a nosy SOB and entirely unhelpful.  My experience is that if you buy a group of related items (most of which you really have no use for) no one questions you.  Whatever you do don't go shopping while tweaking.

Benzene: Benzene is most likely an ingredient in gasoline.  Although some denatured formulas contain benzene these are not supposed to be OTC unless they are grandfathered.  On a side note denatured alcohol can be almost any formulation if it is approved by special request.

Azeotropes: A listing of binary azetropes of ethanol can be found at

http://www.chemeng.ed.ac.uk/~neilm/new/azeotope/EE.html

.  Methanol is not listed.  Toluene, benzene, hexane and heptane are however. The list is not definitive (but is fairly complete) and does not contain trinary or higher azeotropes or hetrogenous azeotropes.  Separating compound with no azetrope by distillation may still be difficult in some cases, ie. it is hard to get drinking grade ethanol from denatured alcohol.

Osmium

  • Guest
> I would hesitate to drink etoh distilled ...
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2002, 01:15:00 PM »
> I would hesitate to drink etoh distilled from denatured
> alcohol, but I'm sure it's safe if you've successfully
> analyzed the distillate for any contamination.

You don't need to be hesitant at all.

The usual (legal or moonshine still) has a separation efficiency of perhaps 2 theoretical plates, yet the distillers are able to remove the MeOH formed during fermentation of fruits containing kernels (cherry etc).

When you rectify EtOH which is already 90 or 95% pure and the only volatile adulterant is MeOH then it really shouldn't be a problem to get it out by simply discarding the first 10-15% of the distillate when you use a column with 20 or so theoretical plates. With a normal lab sized distillation unit you can easily produce 250-500ml of pretty pure EtOH, the HETP value for a column diameter of 1 inch filled with rolled wire mesh is about 20mm @500ml/hr.
By scaling it up somewhat (50-75mm column diameter, 1m column etc) and discarding a generous forerun you should be able to distill one to two liters or more of very pure EtOH per hour. How do you guys think reagent grade solvents are made? Same principle.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

UTFSE

  • Guest
Osmium--- awrite ---- otay spanky - this sounds ...
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2002, 01:32:00 PM »
Osmium---

otay spanky - this sounds real good.

i got sitting here in front of me a couple of 5 gallons containers that state "99% anhydrous ethyl alcohol - denatured" along with a warning of methyl alcohol.

and by using the equipment/methodology you just described I would have 100% anhydrous ethanol?
would redrying with say CaCl be approipriate?
  --------------------------------------way cool, dude.

OTEECEE & meeeee!!!!

Rhodium

  • Guest
No, only CaO is suitable (irreversibly forming ...
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2002, 02:44:00 PM »
No, only CaO is suitable (irreversibly forming Ca(OH)2 with water). CaCl2 will even chlorinate some of the EtOH...

Chromic

  • Guest
Hmm...
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2002, 03:11:00 PM »
I'm really hesistant about putting alcohol into my body in the first place.  :)

My 28" 3/4" copper column stuffed with stainless steel wool gives an incredible separation as well (when a decent external reflux ratio is used, I'm sure it gives me over 20 plates). However it doesn't produce "scent-free" 95% ethanol. I guess that's the reason behind my hesitation... but I guess, a couple ppt MeOH isn't going to hurt anyone but a couple ppt bad-smell in ethanol can really "give it character".

goiterjoe

  • Guest
copper column...
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2002, 03:47:00 PM »
you using a copper radiator for a condensor as well?

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere