Author Topic: Ker Plunking for quality and quantity  (Read 36079 times)

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ChemoSabe

  • Guest
Congrats
« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2002, 03:40:00 AM »
Hey coglib,

If this is one of your first attempts and you got any yeild at all doing that small of a nano then consider it a smashing success. Next time at least go for 10g run. With the ker plunk you should at least get around 5g's back and maybe more. Once you are getting larger amounts of yeilds then you can make the move into "recryst" which gets you to the real candy.

Persistence and diligent work are the keys to success with all of this and don't forget to practice safety measures. This stuff ain't worth ending up in the hospital or jail over.

mnkyboy77

  • Guest
# of NP Washes
« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2002, 10:27:00 AM »
SWIM will usually do more than 3 NP washes(SWIM also puts this wash water back in with the lye/rxn/water, to reduce # of containers and to KEEP EVERYTHING until finished).  If the ph ~12.5, 3 washes may be sufficiant. The higher the ph, the more washes one should do, but stop washing if the ph =~10.  (SWIM will wash the NP until the wash water = ph 10. 

Another good idea, if kerplunking or anything, do a COLD dh2o wash, followed by a HOT dh2o, and then COLD wash, ect.

The reason for the Napatha in the kerplunking is because of its long-chain hydrocarbons.  (Also, its been SWIM's experiance that more and more gaak is becoming Tol soluable, where as very little is sol in Xylone and Napatha. (SWIM only uses Tol in the cleaning of feed-stock, not in the post-rxn workup).

The color change of the lye/rxn layer from the h2o2 is unreacted I2.  When refluxed, or cooked longer, one will notice less color change, if any.



Its 3 o'clock...Do you know where your Matrice-Back is?

Steamer

  • Guest
5% Final Product .....!!
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2002, 10:58:00 PM »
Here's how it was:
                   70 gr. E  Good clean stuff
                   100 gr I  Rocks chopped into powder
                    40 gr LGRP
Push/pulled as usual, done this size of batch 3 times before, same pills,I,E  etc.. Good steady reaction,actually the best yet, ground the RP and E up good and fine powdery.Took off on it's own, added 6 mls of water half way into the reaction,nice pull...seen better but the apparatus is losing it's sealing capacity.
Tried the kerplunk this time but the gawk never went away,so said the hell with it and dripped with HCL. Only got 4 gr of product. The only unusual observations were thhat when water was added to Rx at the end, a foamy white layer formed, I figured from the neck crystals.Used Tol instead of Naptha.
Regardless, now I sit and stare at the jug and contemplate my next move, reheat(its been sitting a day... NP and lye/freebase) and see what happens maybe try skim the gawk layer which maybe hanging up the meth from moving up, or shake the jug gently for a while, or pull the Tol out and try Naptha. Need some advice....momma's not too impressed.........

Honey........why are the kitchen walls so yellow ??

mnkyboy77

  • Guest
Used Tol instead of Naptha.
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2002, 07:40:00 PM »
Used Tol instead of Naptha.

Naptha is all that SWIM has used for the last several months, ever since he/she noticed large amounts of emulsion going into the Tol.

Take your jug of 'failed' goods.  Add some more NaOH and rock salt.  Drop in a stir bar and place on a mag stirrer. Turn on the stirrer and walk away for abit.  Carry out your A/B as usual.  (Save your wash water and NaOH layer for another rainy day).  You might be able to get several pulls out of it.

Naptha works great for this method for many reasons, one being that Naptha has to be WARM before it will start excepting the goods.  (This works to your advantage as it starts cooling.  If there is some FRESH dH2O w/ a few drops of HCl added to the Naptha when its put away, the next time its pulled out, one will find more goods in the water)

Its 3 o'clock...Do you know where your Matrice-Back is?

Steamer

  • Guest
Naptha vs Tol
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2002, 09:58:00 PM »
Agreed , most posts reccomended Tol and SWIM agrees it seems to "pull" faster than Naphtha but SWIM also notices more emulsion with Tolulene compared to Naptha. SWIM has learned to be patient with Naptha as it seems to be rather lazy and needs to be warmed up. Put some starting fluid in the Naptha and this really seemed to pull the goods fast with minimal heating. SWIM is really begining to be sickened by the smell of Tolulene, and the shit is very bad for you. Naptha seems to clean up easier, less gawk and less suspitious to purchase and have around the house. Alot less fire hazard too. Ya, SWIM did pull 22gr out cooked and recovered 63%....the strongest go-fast SWIM has ever tried. Ended up with alot of solution from the extra tweaking (5 liters). Was thinking why not evaporate, MeOH wash to extract the E ? Should be possible as the majority of chemicals are either E or NaOH, with a small percentage of salt. Anyhow.........life is good again !! Thanks for the help.........!!
..What's the deal with the spell checker ? That must be the reason for some really f**ked up posts here....I thought it was the drugs.

C:/DOS C:DOS RUN......RUN DOS RUN

scatter_brained

  • Guest
red looking bubbles
« Reply #85 on: July 09, 2002, 08:01:00 PM »
Swim tried ker plunking for the first time.As soon as he added,the naptha and the layers seperated,their was a red glob of bubble layer between the two.Should this be filtered before going on with the rest of the method.The naptha looks clear and the water golden.

Calibron

  • Guest
Yes
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2002, 08:09:00 PM »
Filtering works wonders to combat stubborn emulsions. Was the NaOH already added? If so chances are that some "E or M" may be trapped in this (inbetween layer) Whatever dries in the filter can be, in theory "pulled from" at a later time to release any trapped goods.

mnkyboy77

  • Guest
More Info Needed
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2002, 09:07:00 PM »
More info is needed in order to help...Want good answers-- Need good details, (Steps, what has been done, quanities, as many varibles and knowns as possible)

But to take a SWAG (Scientific Wild Ass Guess), here goes.

* If the NaOH was added via metal spoon, the redish/pinkish tint is from that (More than Likely)
* To be honest...More details are needed to answer

Check the bottom layer's pH...If the pH is 2-4, pour off as much NP as possible,  Place a funnel into a recieving container.  Place enough crushed ice in a coffee filter to fill the funnel at least 1/2 way.  Pour the post rxn layer over the ice.  This should remove most of the emulsion that is of the waxy naturer.  Place a new recieving container under the filter and rince the crushed ice with dH2O...Save till later,

If the redish emulsion started to move into the NP, use fresh NP, if not use the previously poured off NP.

Place make onto a heat source.  As the temp increases, SLOWLY increase the pH as it startes bunnling.  Add ONLY A FEW DROPS of H2O2 to the mix...If too much H2O2 is added, funky tasting honey may form!  Let the solution bubble around a pH of 10. 

The emulsion could also be due to not properly cleaned feed stock (reds from the red-hots).

Easiest way to avoid any possible faults/problems is start off with the cleanest feed-stock as possible.  (Shit in = Shiter Shit out)


He who dies with the most toys, still dies!

geezmeister

  • Guest
attack the emulsion first, then filter
« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2002, 10:02:00 AM »
One of the reasons to "ker plunk" is to fight emulsions which otherwise interfere with the A/B extraction. The method allows you to work with heat, peroxide, salt, gradual increases in pH, additon of acetone or other solvents,  and filtration if you wish to add it. The enhanced solubility of heated non-polar solvent and the fluid motion and activity at the interface caused by heating the lower layer facilitate the movement of the freebase to the non-polar layer without contributing to the emulsion. Filtering out a "red glob of emulsion" would be advisable if other measures, such as adding a few drops of peroxide or alcohol, heating, salting, stirring, etc... do not suffice to eliminate the emulsion or reduce its density to a level where migration of the freebase to the non-polar solvent is not impaired. If the emulsion persists and is of such density as to block the interface or impair the migration of the freebase, filtering the emulsion out and extracting the product from its separately would be wise. 

Mnkyboy comments: "Add ONLY A FEW DROPS of H2O2 to the mix...If too much H2O2 is added, funky tasting honey may form!"
  
When this thread was fairly new there was a running discussion about whether to add peroxide at all, and if so, how much to add. Some concern was expressed that peroxide might damage the meth. SWIG in his early ker plunking experiences added 35% H2O2 to the ker plunking pot. He kept this on hand as an oxidizer for sanitizing a pool and spa. A single drop would create intense bubbling and reaction at the interface-- as much or more at times as the addition of dry NaOH (SWIG no longer adds this dry, but only in prepared solution). It was "fun" and occasionally "exciting" ("scary" may be descriptive to some). SWIG had success with ker plunking from his first try, and never noticed a "funky taste" he attributed to H2O2. He can't say the use of strong peroxide affected yield, as his yield increased with the technique. He could not detect damage to the product, which seemed qualitatively better with the technique than without its use. The strong peroxide, used as a sanitizer, was only kept on hand during the summer.

As SWIG's lab skills improved, he experienced less of an interface problem. He became accustomed to a mirror-like interface and usually added only a few drops of 3% H2O2 to see whether an observable effect could be noticed at the interface. Sometimes a thin reddish stain appeared, then faded, and occasionally a dark stain would appear and fade.

In his experience, the strong peroxide helped clear the emulsion and did not appear to be counterproductive, although he cannot say it is or was necessary. He has not encountered a smell or taste problem, and is curious as to whether it may be related to pill gakk of a type he has not encountered.

 
           

An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.

dwarfer

  • Guest
kerplunking for MAGIC
« Reply #89 on: July 10, 2002, 10:21:00 AM »
No, Kerplunking is to allow the
"damaged meth molecules"
to attain their
True Destiny as Meth
by passing thru naphtha over and over,
 giving them the opportunity to express their
Inward Spirit
by grabbing from the
Alkane Bonepile
those needed parts
to
MAKE THEM WHOLE

cAN i HEAR A
hALLELEUJA??


dwarfer

geezmeister

  • Guest
Hallelujah.
« Reply #90 on: July 10, 2002, 11:26:00 AM »
Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!Halleujah!

Hall EEEEEEEEYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEE LLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO YAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Don't you wish it really did?

An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.

readyeddie

  • Guest
Sounds good to go
« Reply #91 on: July 10, 2002, 02:01:00 PM »
Hey dwarfer glad to see you still around.Been gone for sometime and it looks like the boards hear are doing and looking good also rhodium.geezmeister sounds like your trailing Worlock from the posts and replys that i have seen keep it up good work.The red bubble layer maybee a oxygen block large bubbles of air right.Filter it out are suck it out with a baster and then ker plunk the shit out of it.If by chance your non polor is turning a solid red are yellow color either wash it out with non polor until it clears are add sodium thiosulfate to knock out the excess iodine in your solutions.As soon as the thiosulfate is added and stirred you'll notice that the red are yellow stain will vanish.The bubbles may still remain but i bet you that they will not be red are yellow any longer.This is a great thread and Worlock and Jacked you guys really did a good job with this one.


The only way three people can keep a secret is if two of them are dead!

wareami

  • Guest
Halla-lu-lu-YAH!
« Reply #92 on: July 10, 2002, 03:54:00 PM »
Hey Ready....welcome back! As you can see the snow is still deeper than the
And just incase....Ibee keeps his HIP-WADERS on under his HALLOWEEN costume....

Geez and Dwarfer: Ibee has to agree with the benefitial effects of repairing the damaged meth molecules using h2o2 in very small amounts! He's never been as bold as Geez in wanting to start a whole visual display of glass shattering proportions....but the tinybubbles are fun to watch while waiting!
Ibee has never experienced an unpleasant taste from the addition either. But he adds all kinds of Kinky stuff to the torturechamber in an effort to whip things into shape and get to the goods, so that may not be a valid account!

In addition to the ker-plunking...Ibee has used tetra and ether using naptha as the main NP solvent and he always walks away a happy camper saying to the stubborn molecules""????!!!!!

Peaceof the reaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE
 


Everything Ibee says should be taken with a Large Grain of Sympathomimetic Amine Salt
ô¿ôWareami

Jacked

  • Guest
Ok man, so pull a little rabbit out of the hat
« Reply #93 on: July 17, 2002, 01:03:00 AM »
Dwafer, you clued me in on this a long time ago but it's been blessed by the meth gods now, if ya smear it in there faces they are lobble to hex your next few batches or worse crack your acetone pipe when you aint looking. Don't worry I told them you were just kidding and didn't mean anything by it... In reality kerplunking today is only a hot naphtha pull after a quick basing, it only takes about 15 min and is over before the mystery even starts, yields are consistent around 76% by weight.....

Rolling Rolling Rolling keep them doggys rolling RawHide!

geezmeister

  • Guest
still on top
« Reply #94 on: July 17, 2002, 07:05:00 AM »
Good to see Jacked back around! Still the master at 76% yield! (The North Rim is at it finest in late September).

An education is what's left when you've forgotten what you learned.

shineon

  • Guest
some questions?
« Reply #95 on: November 05, 2002, 03:04:00 PM »
wow super cool right up,if you have the time I hoped you could anser a few questions.(1)when boiling are you using a condenser,(2)what kind of peroxide,(3)how long should you be boiling for befor you start adding your peroxide,(4)if you first add NaOH to a ph of 10 then won't this base the rxn mix it seems high to me like it might seperate(5)have we stoped the boiling to raise the ph to 12.5,(6)when doing this over an hour are we adding a Naoh in a Dh20 mixture,or strate from the can.if you could help this bee out it would be a big step to saving the human race.Just PM me

geezmeister

  • Guest
answers?
« Reply #96 on: November 06, 2002, 08:18:00 AM »
1)no condenser is needed

2) 3% peroxide is what Warlock had in mind.

3)Add the peroxide as the non-polar layer begins warming. It is added in the early part of the heating. The polar layer should be warm, but not boiling. Add a little peroxide (which is of dubious benefit) when you first see gakk at the interface between the two layers.

4)Do not base all the way to pH 12.8 at the start, but do bring the polar layer to pH 12.8 or above before you stop.

Bring the pH up over the period of time the naptha heats up. Start heating before adding any NaOH solution. Bring the pH up in steps as the naptha heats. Add NaOH solution a little at a time until the small bubbles eluting into the naptha indicate the pH of the polar layer is high enough to freebase any remaining meth HCl in solution--i.e., until it is above ph 12.8-- When the naptha is hot and the polar layer above pH 12.8-- (you can observe an increased and steady flow of tiny bubbles rising through the naptha) turn the heat off and let the mixture sit until the bubbles cease.

Bringing the pH up over a period of time lengthens the time the non-polar solvent has to absorb the meth freebase. It also keeps the interface relatively cleaner through a good part of the basing process. "Ker plunking" is a method of combatting emulsions and gakked interfaces. Waxes and gakk solids appear at the interface as the pH level of the non-polar increases. This "trash" impedes the efficiency of the interface. The meth freebased by contact with concentrated NaOH solution will elute before the pH of the polar layer itself reaches 12.8  When the entire polar layer is pH 12.8 or higher, almost all of the meth HCl will be freebased. The freebase meth is polar soluble-- regardless of the pH of the polar layer-- unless and until it combines with a HCl molecule. A good part of the meth will elute before the reaction fluid reaches pH 12.8. Most of the trash and gakk that appears with the addition of NaOH-- and which clogs the interface-- does so as the pH reaches and exceeds 12.8.  Raising the pH slowly keeps the interface cleaner, allowing the freebase meth to elute. (If you doubt this, stop adding NaOH when the polar layer is at pH 10 or 11. Separate the non-polar layer, wash, and extract by gassing or titrating. You will get a nice quantity of very clean meth HCl. You will get more when the pH of the non-polar solution is above 12.8 and the rest of the meth HCl is freebased.)

5)no need to stop the heating to raise the pH to 12.8 or higher.

6) Adding dry NaOH to the mixture can cause an energetic reaction and bubbling that pushes the entire non-polar layer out of the container. This is a good way to lose the meth you just made. This is also an excellent reason to use a NaOH solution, since it avoids this partiuclar problem.

 

Mostly harmless

ChemoSabe

  • Guest
Das Ist Der Kerplunker
« Reply #97 on: November 07, 2002, 01:05:00 AM »
I visited swim's buddy today and he let me scan a pic out of his rare book titled The Great Book of Ker Plunking.



This picture shows but one of many setups one could theoretically use for this esoteric process.

The book stated that with this setup that the amount of NaOH solution used to slowly base it up was 50ml.

The recommended duration of adding the NaOH is one half hour. Worlock said a Ker Plunk could go as long as an hour. And that's correct. Jacked said it couldbe done within 15 minutes. That's correct too. But this book takes the middle ground.

The NaOH drips at a steady rate of approximately 2 drops per second from the sep funnel.

If anything is to be added, hydrogen peroxide or various forms of sodium chloride, it's sent down the side neck of that Claisen adapter on top of the 1000ml flat bottomed flask. The open Claisen neck also acts to equalize the pressure within the flask environment.

I also took a peek at swim's buddy notes and he said that he's given up the hydrogen peroxide due to seemingly as good results without it.

Here's another photo from that rare book showing the boiling stones suggested. This stuff make nice fine tiny bubbles that will have the process in no danger of erupting like old faithful. Nobody likes a big lye/naphtha/freebase geyser. The boiling stones are actually a quite common variety of silica sand.



PS. If you look closely you can faintly see the ghostly form of the great goddess of ker plunking hovering in the upper right of the top photo and giving this particular batch her blessings.

I may be dumb and ugly but I make up the difference with my lack of personality.

geezmeister

  • Guest
on peroxide
« Reply #98 on: November 07, 2002, 09:54:00 AM »
Chemosabe makes the consensus comment that using H2O2 is probably of no effect or importance. I agree with the view for the most part. I suspect the truth of this conventional wisdom may be based on which inerts make it to the reaction fluid. When alcohol extraction was the norm and few pills required the full turps cure assault to clean them, the H2O2 seemed to have a noticeable effect on clearing the interface and cleaning the product. The lack of that effect now may be party due to the changed composition of the pill formulations and the presence of different adulterants.
All the same, the peroxide adds little to the process.

Mostly harmless

MnkyBoy78

  • Guest
Oh Contrair Geez
« Reply #99 on: November 07, 2002, 05:50:00 PM »
1)  Of the things that the H2O2 does is to destroy the unreacted pseudo.  H2O2 will distroy organic matter...E happining to be organic.  End result, less, if no unreacted feed stock in the final product.

2)  Iod*-pfed/meth will react with the H2O2...What it exactly does, swim is unsure of, but believes that: (This is only a SWAG)

     The H2O2 breaks off the iodine off of the e/meth molicule.  Iodine and Naptha will form HI.  The partial reacted feedstock then can or has the opertunity to become fully converted throughout the boiling.

Thats just SWIM's theory though.


Why 78...I just dont know? But the voices said it sounded good