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A recent extraction of pseudo HCl from 120's was reacted with hypo acid made from sodium hypophosphite and worked up in my usual fashion. Gassing the collected nonpolar solvent prodced a less than spectacular yield of what appeared to be good product, which had most of its usual effect when first ingested. I was quite fresh when my lady and I first did a sample. I did note at the time that it did not have the euphoric effects I look for, but it seemed to have the other aspects of my favorite drug. I set about to recyrstallize the product the next day and from that process wound up with only a gram of diamonds, about two grams that had the texture and appearance of refined sugar, and another gram or so of white flakes, almost like powder. I had almost a twenty percent loss of weight in the process--very unusual in my book. The powder was trashy, and had little if any effect. It was, in fact, worse than the gassed and acetone rinsed product I sampled before. The sugar-like crystals not only did not smoke cleanly, they tasted horrible and gave only a minor effect that lasted only a short while. It also did not burn as cleanly as the inital gassed product and had none of the potency of the original product. The diamonds, which I had reserved for a deserving friend to sample, were invaded last to determine whether these were the real deal at all.
Ahhh the diamonds! They burned cleanly in the pipe and on foil, they rerocked immediately, the smoked without any taste at all. And did nothing to me. Period. Of everything obtained after the crystallizing process, this was the purest and the weakest. After recrystallizing, I could not get a good buzz from any of the dope I had made, despite having been able to get a decent buzz from the orginal pile of meth.
Unbelieving, my lady and I began to chase the high we so much prefer to experience, and wound up consuming all the remaining goods over the period of probably thirty six hours.
It has taken me four days to recover from the experience. My mind became unfocused, I could not think clearly, could not concentrate, could not link attention spans without struggling, and was completely unproductive. I was edgy, a little agitated, my mood was depressed to the extreme (well, DUH!), I battled nervousness, nausea, and tiredness, wound up sleeping about sixteen or more hours a day, and generally felt lousy. I had gastrointestinal distress, nausea, extreme flatulence, and indigestion.
I read Dwarfer's post on (-)(-) pseudo HCl and its effects and I'll be damned if it doesn't match what I felt to a "T."
I've noted very few reports in the stim forum proclaiming the quality of product produced of late. I'm curious if other bees have had any recent batches that were as miserable as the Geezmeister's last one.
Its one thing to have a failed or low quality batch. Its another one to make something that makes you ill, leaves you dazed and confused for a few days after ingesting it, and generally makes you not to want to do any more meth at all. I've been making meth from pseudo long enough, well enough, to know how to do it, and to know the difference between good dope and the shit I made this last time.
Is anyone else having similar experiences?
Should we suddenly be concerned that the gakks in the pills, or the pseudo in the pills, can leave you with something that isn't what you think it is, and does something to you you don't want to have happen?
If a new batch doesn't do to you what you expect and want it to do, be very wary of doing more of it chasing a buzz. That favorite buzz may not be there at all, and there may be some effects to ingesting the stuff you really don't care to experience.
I can't tie the phenomenon I experienced to anything other than the product of that reaction. My lady friend experienced similar physical sensations and effects, although not as pronounced, perhaps-- although it could be that her daily experiences and tasks do not highlight the lack of focus and the confusion the way my job does.
It is as if I made myself ill by ingesting my own product. Has anyone else found less than potent product from routine techniques lately? Anyone find themselves at a loss for the euphoric buzz? Anyone making themselves dazed and confused rather than focused and energized?
Or is it just me?
Something suggests to me it isn't just me. I think this is more common that we've been wanting to admit, and no one has wanted to talk about it. Whatever. It hit me broadside last week, and I, for one, am not afraid to bring the subject up.
And I didn't have a failed batch. I know what it is like to have failed batches, as I have enough that have failed. I had no pseudo left in the pile, and it did not have the taste, smell, or side effects I normally note with incomplete batches. Everything about this batch said it was done. It also says this isn't the meth I am used to making. Period.
Comments?
Similar experiences?
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Something similar has happened to SWIF. He got beautiful diamond shards as you describe after recrystalization, but after smoking a small bit and not getting a buzz, he didn't ingest any more. He also didnt get any of the tell-tale signs of a failed reaction.
He thought it was just unreacted pseudo, so he re-reacted it and got beautifully pure REAL meth. He attributed it to the heat not being on high enough during the 12hr process. Could that be what you have done?
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Why don't you people learn to do TLC and melting point tests and be done with this kind of shit?
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If I had previously had an experience of this nature, I likely would have learned, Os.
This is the first time I recall having had this sort of thing happen in the last seven years-- or for that matter much longer. Its been a long time since I felt poisoned by illicit drugs. I have to go back to college days to remember the last time, and they were a long time ago.
I sure as hell didn't expect it this time. Nothing about the product initially suggested this might happen, and nothing about it suggested that it was anything other than a mediocre batch. But it was.
So, TLC experiences or not, I thought I share it with the rest of the crew here, who might have the same experience, with or without TLC. Your point is noted, without offense.
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The Fischer Johns melting point apparatus has just been
equipped with a replacement thermometer, and I hope to
get it actively pursuing this point soon.
=============
I do not think I've seen as complete a listing of the various melting points for the laevo material. If it is already assembled, please point me at it.
============
In the reference Rhodium gave to the possible answer to
the conundrum, which was (if I recall) 60 g of pre-go in 20 ML methanol and 2 grams of sodium....
should the precursor be dissolved in the alcohol and tne sodium added?
How nasty is the reaction arising from plunging sodium into methanol?? How basic is it? like pH 25 or something??
=================
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Sounds like aziridine to me from undereduction. SWIM has gotten back product that had the effects that you describe to a tee before, usually when he pulled the rxn to early. Do you steam distill? If so, it's almost certainly aziridine from undereduction. That iodoephedrine will all cyclize to form that aziridine as soon as exposed to a hot lye solution. Also, someone above mad mentioned the fact that they got the same type of product back, then re-reacted it to get back beautiful product. This also points toward aziridine, which would be reduced to meth also by HI. The aziridine also seems to form in the reaction without base addition, and if pulled to early your product will contain large amounts of it. Recrystallize some of it from 90% IPA. Does it look kinda feathery? If so, aziridine baby!
If it happens again, re-react the crystals. SWIM garuntess you'll get back good product.
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Swig noticed that same effect too. It started about 6 months ago. Swig then realized that p-fed, solvents, and time did not prove worthwhile to ever try again. Swig then made a promise to himself that he would never go that route again. Even though Swig has not completed his alternative route due to lack of time and money, but he is close. In the long run swig believes this way will save time and money, and should produce a better quality of product(except for that fact that enantiomers will exist). Swig hates the idea of not knowing what he is starting with, and starting from scratch seems to be more satisfying, and does not agitated his OCD problem. It also seems a lot less risky. Swig can do about a million things with benzyl bromide, but how many things can one do with a stockpile of p-fed? ADDkid
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I'm no doctor, but the variety and magnitude of symptoms seem to indicate things like mineral depletion, powerful urine acidification, etc.. - all intrinsic to a certain extent. Many many things are possible..
Actually.. It does look a lot like.. No, almost absolutely: Metabolic Acidosis
(will research more..)
What are some by-products of the hypo reaction? Perhaps there's a new side rxn with a new gakk, (a RP/I rxn with the same precursor would resolve that possibility).
Or, might you have been food poisoned beforehand? (Eat any potnentially 'bad' food before you two set uP?).. Independant causes often complicate these situations, mainly because there's a tendency to make false attributions to 'unusual' aspects of the crystal.
(.. Ahh, the many times SWIR actually had a cold but was oblivious since all his symptoms were muted by the meth. So he felt 'normal', thus becoming angry that the crystal was weak-- and even 'contaminated' if he did have any symptoms of the illness left remaining. "Damn dirty dope!")
Unfortunately, it's in the nature of the drug to make you "super person" but not really.. Consequently, we tend not to know what it's feels like when some of the body's grumblings make it through that wall of omnipotence, and instead usually blame everything on the dope. (In my opinion, anyways..)
Did you take any of the product orally at any point?
Did you ever recombine and take all 3 types of crystal at the same time?
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Have you used the same hypo with the same source of pseudo (120's) previously with success? when you vaporized it did it taste like anything remotely related to meth?
I like your "shulgin" like approach on a questionable batch, and your not just labeling it a failed batch but trying to solve the problem.
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I'am no doctor either, but I believe that stim including MDMA help a lot with colds. This result could be due to the more constant blood flow and maybe a higher production of white blood cells, I have been on stim. for most of my life and I only get sick when I take a break from the stim. for long periods of time. This is only my personal experience. I still wonder if stim. could replace some or most of the benfits of excerise.
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If there was a toxin that induced serious acidosis, after the first sampling of your stuff, your blood and urine would be so acidic that any subsequent intake would scarcely be absorbed before it was removed by the kidneys.
So you probably had the difficult symptoms of a real-deal case of acidosis + the bizarro psychological experience of taking meth and being sleepy 10 minutes later. (This has happened to SWIR..)
Metabolic Acidosis
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic312.htm (http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic312.htm)
)
"Ingestions - Salicylates, methanol, ethylene glycol, isoniazid, iron, paraldehyde, sulfur, toluene, ammonium chloride, phenformin/metformin, and hyperalimentation fluids. Acetazolamide, Cholestyramine."
Lactic Acidosis
http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic291.htm (http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic291.htm)
"The most frequent cause of lactic acidosis is poor perfusion, which is induced by various shock states, overwhelming infection, or other causes of hypoxia. Medicinal and toxic causes of lactic acidosis are quite numerous, including acetaminophen, alcohols and glycols (ethanol, ethylene glycol, methanol, propylene glycol), almitrine, antiretroviral nucleoside analogs (zidovudine, delavirdine, didanosine, lamivudine, stavudine, zalcitabine), beta-adrenergic agents (eg, epinephrine, ritodrine, terbutaline), biguanides (phenformin, metformin), cocaine, cyanogenic compounds (eg, cyanide, aliphatic nitriles, nitroprusside), diethyl ether, 5-fluorouracil, halothane, iron, isoniazid, nalidixic acid, propofol, sugars and sugar alcohols (fructose, sorbitol, and xylitol), salicylates (eg, Reye syndrome), strychnine, sulfasalazine, and valproic acid."
- I would think aziridines qualify.
- PEG decomposition to ethylene glycol with heat when vaporizing product. (*Not 100% sure)
- The solvents
...at least.
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Geez, i have had the same experience at various degrees to what you described. This has happened several times and i have yet to figure out why. As you know i use sodium hypophosphite as well. My best guess is that when making hypo this way the actual amount of pure hypo is lower than that of labgrade hypo. I beleive alot of it gets oxidized to the "ics" during the process. I beleive this to bee true because for the last several rxns i have been adding a little rp to the rxn and allowing it to reflux for 24 hours and haven't experienced this problem since.
Before it was like each batch was a coin toss and if it wasn't good it was rereacted and normally would turn out good on the second time around. Adding more hypo doesn't seem to bee the answer either.
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Perhaps the following are to blame:
Post 500905 (https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=8707.msg50090500#msg50090500)
(Prepuce: "Know the enemy: More data on polysorbate 80.", Stimulants)
- The charming "toxic preservative"
Post 502710 (https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=8707.msg50271000#msg50271000)
(Rhodium: "PEG/Polysorbate HI depletion", Stimulants)
- Then, HI in reaction cleaves the P80 to ethylene glycol and again to ethene & by-products, depleting 2 equiv HI.
SWIR is ignorant to the hypo mechanism exactly, but it seems as though the breakdown of P80 and ethylene glycol used up your HI before the rxn was complete, with a good portion of your meth stuck as the aziridine intermediate. .. Add to that the intrinsic toxicities of the P80 and ethylene glycol not completely broken-down by HI (mainly when smoked) + some assorted garbage from the ethene-producing step.
I'd guess you'd have been fine / a lot better had the diamonds been your first taste, and noticed the effect too.
..TLC is easy and sweet- for the peace of mind in knowing your reagents are pure, the ability to deduce which impurities are present and address them directly, and much much more.. It would all amount to a lot less time fucking around. (Those were the days of yore for SWIR..)
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Testing never stops at UP-AWE-NITE® and with this testing comes varied results from attempts to arrive at uniform consistancies.
When I see things like this, it makes it easier to narrow down some causes that Ibee experiences first hand from a list of less than desirable results.
I'm more inclined to narrow this down to Geez's initial suspicion concerning additives to the OTC product itself and not the causes suggested by some that would indicate inconsistancies in Rxn Skill, cook timing, or technique.
Now it's possible they have manipulated the pfed molecule somewhat that would produce unreacted if the conditions weren't just right....But the nature of the HI/RP LWR has always countered this in the past when it was suspected originally.
I thought it was evident that the excess aziridines are cooked off given ample time @ proper temps.
This should rule out the aziridine factor I would think.
Ibee exerienced these undesired effects on a few occassions via the product obtained from the HI/RP LWR about two months ago. All signs of excess impurities were non-existant in the xtal or the work-up process.
Some titrated...some steam distilled.
In one batch, however, eudragit permeated the end result forcing a steam distill in order to obtain usable product.
The unpleasant bio-assay sides did not exist in that batch.
Since that time he experienced this "CRAP" dope.
He too blamed the feedstock and since the eudragit was ruled out he set out to stay away that source to avoid the unpleasant effects from what should have been "Good as It Ghets" and turned out to be pure crap in comparison.
How they are including this denaturant/adulterant is a mystery and it's well known that Geez and Ibee utilize different methods to extract and wouldn't run anything that a mere "thought" would indicate less than cleanfeed.
Now we have reports from two rxn types and two different extraction methods reporting the end result being something that we'd rather steer clear of.
If the Big D chimes in with a positive failure that utilizes Marvins birch....then I think we can safely conclude that it may just be the pfed itself as I'm sure Marvin extracts differently than Geez or Ibee!
A month ago some of the same stock was shelved that produced the CrapBatch and has since been revisited in an attempt to circumvent this Crap.
Various solvent assaults have been applied and several specimens are awaiting a final jacuzzi run to determine what's what.
This may be bigger than all of Us bees.
Now...since I'm relatively certain that Osmium skipped past all the Excessive Wanker Verbiage, I hope to get his attention down here with my Boldness ;)
Os: Could you please outline the bare minimum chems(easiest aquirable OTC) for one to start conducting TLC on these specimens.
I've read alot on the subject and always been stopped dead in my tracks with indecision about what it is exactly Ibee needs to go out and purchase.
You also mentioned in the past that column separation is in order here as a method of extraction.
I'm at a loss here in trying to convert this technique into a bulk type extraction method.
Ibee's game.
It's not that you're insight in the past has been completely discarded or intentionally ignored, but some of us beeslack the edgumacation in these more sophisticated areas....
In other words...when the pain gets great enough, we'll buckle down and listen to reason. :)
Thanx for your insight into pointing out our shortcomings and Thanks in advance for your guidance and suggestions in steering us from our ignorance to advanced technique and application :P
I'm beeing sincere!
Red_Crown...interesting stuff! I'm hoping we can factor all these things into arriving at a work-around cause the shit just aint worth making us all sick!
Thanx Geez for braking the Ice on this.
The greatest enemy we all face is the stemming of the flow of information and I really feel the opposition know this and are striving hard to achieve it.
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Geez, sorry about to hear about your dissatisfying results. If a bee with your experience has the described outcome of that reaction, it is time to be worried. From what SWIN assumes about that reaction, it was most likely some reduction inhibiting agent in the pseudo, which led to the formation of something else than meth, without leaving unchanged pseudo.
It is certainly possible to produce large clear shards as the result of a (pseudo-)ephedrine reduction, which are absolutely not meth. This has happened to SWIN on his third run: 36 hour LWR Rp/I/Eph, with 20 grams starting material. Complete workup with A/B, steam distill, recrystallisation, which finally yield the largest shards SWIN has ever produced. Melted clean, rerocked in the pipe- everything - just didn't get you high. :o Later turned out that the thermostat at the oilbath was screwed, so the whole reaction ran at an oilbath temp of about 100°C, the flask contents presumably at 70-80 °C. D'oh. So SWIN had cooked a nice large batch of iodoephedrine/aziridine/whatnot- in the shape of the cleanest, largest shards he ever had his hands on. This batch however, was saved for later analysis.
Shorty-
Geez, i have had the same experience at various degrees to what you described.
Did you get further in refining the measurement of the melting point? Did you test these batches for the mp?
wareami-
Could you please outline the bare minimum chems(easiest aquirable OTC) for one to start conducting TLC on these specimens
What worked like a charm for meth freebase was the following solvent mix (which is as OTC as it gets):
9 parts methanol
1 part 6N aqueous ammonia
(by volume)
on silica gel sheets. Rf value is around 0.5, so you would have the spot of your favourite amine right in the middle - perfect. This was taken from a paper Rhodium posted some time ago- I think the exact Rf value given was 0.58.
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Practical TLC basics:
http://orgchem.colorado.edu/hndbksupport/TLC/TLCprocedure.html (http://orgchem.colorado.edu/hndbksupport/TLC/TLCprocedure.html)
http://www.indiana.edu/~orgchem/movies/complt.mov (http://www.indiana.edu/~orgchem/movies/complt.mov)
https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/djvu/tlc.zubrick5.djvu (https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/djvu/tlc.zubrick5.djvu)
Post 453957 (https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=9388.msg45395700#msg45395700)
(Rhodium: "TLC Visualization Reagents (TLC Stains)", Methods Discourse)
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How long has it been since you had it?
Because, SWIM has on occassion made stuff that was actually really fucking potent and after using some for about a day I got so out-of-it I became convinced there was something in my goodies. After using another gram or two trying to work out if it was the real deal, I started accusing people of messing with my gear and shit like this. Another few doses later I gave it to a guy I thought had put something in it, to 'get him back'. (Thought he had been jealous and fucked with my shit, so thought giving it to him would have really fucked him off). Anyway, cut a long story short, few days later realised there had been nothing wrong with the gear (this backed up by everyone who had tried it). Ok I was using waaay to much at the time and wasn't really with it, and I'm sure you know exactly what you are doing having been in the scene for a long time, but just thought I'd relay this story just in case...
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> SWIM has on occassion made stuff that was actually really fucking potent
> After using another gram or two trying to work out if it was the real deal
Yeah dude, really fucking potent shit!
Who fucking cares if your 'gear' is 'potent' when you use several grams in only one or two days?! Even if it was only 50% pure then it's still way too much! Period! Quit doing monster lines, it's not about who is man enough to snort a quarter gram at once!
Don't overdo it. Know your limits, and get regular sleep.
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xaja-SWIM agrees with some of your logic. SWIM has been there and done that. Times staying up so long spun out getting weird affects from made dope and blaming it on weird things. That just means you need to get some sleep. SWIM hasn't done anything in a month now (but is planning a new project soon harhar), and can look back with a clear head at all his experiences running the rp/I2 and realize that when you stay up for days on meth, sleep a few days, then stay up some more, things tend to get all mixed up and results from rxn's appear distorted (I hope I worded that right).
Also sometimes, SWIM has had the experience when his tolerance seems to get to high (usually after long long periods of use), he'll make some shit then do some and it seems worse than the last batch. You do more and more, but it just doesn't seem to do it. Being gassy and having odd sleeping patterns are side affects of large meth dosages, and when you have a high tolerance you'll do a lot, certainly enough to bring about those side affects.
Newton-
What did you use to visualize the plates?
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What did you use to visualize the plates?
The developed plates were either stained with iodine vapors, or held under a UV-C light source (Merck silica gel sheets with UV indicator @ 254nm were used). Both worked fine.
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my friend made a small 4 gram batch.he used 2 different kinds of pills.30 mg red hots and white 60's.it was real pretty;sparkling white and some was transparent.by eyeballing the finished product you could tell it had made more meth than his other small batches.like a dummy though he never weighed it.i ate some and thought it was good.i experenced the usual effects...i was talking a mile a minute
and felt energized.confusion and paranoid thoughts soon followed.i was also guzzling down beers as fast as i could.my mind was in high gear thinking more creative thoughts by the minute.my body felt tired though so i kept using more hoping my body would catch up with my mind.any other time on meth i get extremely horny but did not have that effect this time.only meth i ever had that kept me awake but i felt so tired...it's a week since i had any meth and i can still barely keep my eyes open and still suffer from confusion.
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Amalgum: Underreduction is always a possible source of the problem. For hypo, the stuff was cooked long enough to complete, then a while. The lack of any activity, the color, and the smell all suggested completeness. As to recrystallizing, understand the stuff was recrystallized three times to get the bag of diamond, the two of sugar, and the remaining flakes.
ADDkid-- If it is the pseudo it is not in all the pills. I had not done a reaction with the generic 120's in some time, having been engaged in a recent love affair with a couple of brands of white 60's. That may explain part of how noticeable the effects are, or aren't, as the case may be. Alternate routes are certainly something we all need to be considering now. Its allergy season where I live, and I have a runny nose most of the time this time of year, but no cold or any untoward problems at present.
Shorty: I can't rule out an incomplete reaction. Its hard to say any particular reaction fully completed, and hypo from sodium hypophosphite can vary from batch to batch. Yes, its possible. But it had all the outward appearance of a finished reaction. I may have pulled it too soon, but I let it reflux for hours.
RedCrown: I still have some of the pseudo left to do. I have done a bath in NaOH and methanol, with a loss of about 20% by weight in the pseudo. I distilled some chlorinated solvents last night to soak the pseudo in to see if they might break anything still in them loose. I am out of the precursor for hypo right now, and will either do a phos acid cook or an rP cook of the balance of the pseudo. You can rule out food poisoning, allergies, and illness. There is no doubt in my mind that the problems I felt were related to ingesting the drug.
While I did not recombine the three crystals, I did some of each in sequence at the same time, trying to compare them.
it seems as though the breakdown of P80 and ethylene glycol used up your HI before the rxn was complete, with a good portion of your meth stuck as the aziridine intermediate. .. Add to that the intrinsic toxicities of the P80 and ethylene glycol not completely broken-down by HI (mainly when smoked) + some assorted garbage from the ethene-producing step.
This comment makes a lot of sense. The description of effects from smoking it fit the information from Dwarfer's post about (-)(-) pseudo so well. I've smoked meth from less than complete batches that was tainted with polysorbate 80 and with PEG. None of them gave these effects. I am familiar with incomplete synths, with failed synths. This appeared complete, the product contained meth, but the meth did not do what meth normally does. In incomplete batches, recrystallizing will take the yield down substantially, but you tend to clean the meth you have up. I did three recrystallizations on this stuff. The stuff that recrystallized best had the least meth-like effect. The stuff that was in the middle was the best, and the stuff that remained fluffy and white did nothing.
Unionpacific: I've had many successful hypo batches with pseudo from this source. The product had no taste when vaporized. If burned it had a little nasty taste, but it always does if burned.
Ware: Thanks for the confirmation. Your thoughts on the situtation parallel mine.
Xaja: I didn't misunderestimate the strength of the dope. It didn't tweak me out. I slept within the first 24 hours of using it, which was damn good sign in itself that it wasn't good. I am not currently facing any sort of tolerance issues as my meth usage this year has been very moderate, particularly by my standards, and I had not been doing any meth at all for the previous week to ten days.
Zorilla: The sleepiness and the confusion were in fact pronounced after the first day.
Thanks for the comments folks.
It may be useful to keep this subject matter alive for discussion. I acknowledge it could have been a single failed batch, but I really think the symptoms of use were different that I am accustomed to having from failed batches. There was definitiely something different about this one.
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I've postulated, based on information from Gemini, that the conversion of (-)(-)pseudo to the relatively inactive
"flipped amino" MA is the problem.
Two "street samples" acquired by Marvin the Indulgent have proven to have the same characteristic.
The minus MA is OK in small quantities: it has a transparently alertness AS LONG AS YOU DON'T PUSH IT.
But it ain't gonna get you where you like to go.
===========
If somebody has a ref to what OD's on the - MA are like,
it would be valuable.
True value also would be found in the alkali alcoholate treatment Rhode refs on his site, making it a +- blend again..
This latest insult, too,
will fall.
===================
Didn't somebody say that the two isomers were differently soluble
in isopropyl alcohol??
out
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well swarmage, some lizards i have known intimately have had the unfortunate experience of consuming copious quantities of levo ma from a massive extraction of "vicks" (l-desoxyn hcl 50mg per) many moon ago, it may bee possible to comment on what you are saying about this ill product.....
the effects sound identical...
it was initially administered via the iv route...
initially a small sample gave a uplifting of the spirits but with a pronounced fuzziness and vertigo component after a short while....
the lab lizards decided that more would bee in order...
so of course a bigger PILE was the rigged up...
yowzer!!!!
bad move....
it was even worse!!!!
and yes it had a multi day effect on the mental capabilities of all who did very much of it.....
back in those dayz noone smoked it so i cannot comment on that.....
of course azridines also do give some of these effects but it would seem more likely to me that the simplest way for the swinoidz/pharmfagz to cause problems would be to just sub the other isomer instead of wasting so much time with engineering different gakks......
i cannot tell for sure but from first arm experience it SURE sounds that way...
jus a raving inta da sat eye in the afternoon.....
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zorilla:
and felt energized.confusion and paranoid thoughts soon followed.i was also guzzling down beers as fast as i could.my mind was in high gear thinking more creative thoughts by the minute.my body felt tired though so i kept using more hoping my body would catch up with my mind.any other time on meth i get extremely horny but did not have that effect this time.only meth i ever had that kept me awake but i felt so tired...it's a week since i had any meth and i can still barely keep my eyes open and still suffer from confusion.
This sound to SWIM exactly like serotonin depletion, that comes on only after very long periods of use (over months) whether your use was every fucking day or once a week. SWIM has experienced the exact same things you have mentioned above, on many of an occasion. But only afterstaying up a few days and using heavily.
See, meth also stimulates serotonin, much in the same ways MDMA does (they are really structurally close). This SWIM knows from experience. See when on good meth he gets that strong appetite for sex as well, and during sex he gets those same bodily feelings he gets from MDMA, like tingles and just a general empathogenic feeling, a feeling that comes with serotonin release. Serotonin has also been shown to have something to do with humans sleep patterns as well. The fact that you had an overwhelming tiredness, plus lack of that sex desire just screams serotonin depletion. This is when it's time to lay off my friend.
geez:
Amalgum: Underreduction is always a possible source of the problem. For hypo, the stuff was cooked long enough to complete, then a while. The lack of any activity, the color, and the smell all suggested completeness. As to recrystallizing, understand the stuff was recrystallized three times to get the bag of diamond, the two of sugar, and the remaining flakes.
[/quote]
All that doesn't mean a thing. The hypo could have undergone some oxidation, forming H3PO3 or even some H3PO4, rendering it less affective. Also there could very well be newer gaks present that slipped by unoticed and hindered the reaction. It can also be all the above, or none of it. Of course these are only speculations.
As far as recrystallizing goes, the fact that you got two other piles of weird crap makes SWIM lean more toward the theory of pill adulterants that got through and hindered reduction, giving you back a wonderfull pile of azridine (or some other under reduced product). In SWIMS past experiences with what he belives with 95% surety was aziridine, it seems to be the best half-reduced product to recrystallize cloesest to how meth does. SWIM has seen recrystallized azirdine that looked different by a little (that feathery pattern), but still produced clear meth-like shards none-the-less. All SWIM can say is that if it happens again, try re-reacting the finests crystals you get from it (even maybe just a small amount of it for testers), and see if what comes back is what you seek.
Xaja: I didn't misunderestimate the strength of the dope. It didn't tweak me out. I slept within the first 24 hours of using it, which was damn good sign in itself that it wasn't good. I am not currently facing any sort of tolerance issues as my meth usage this year has been very moderate, particularly by my standards, and I had not been doing any meth at all for the previous week to ten days.
This however SWIM must certainly disagree with. There has been many a time when SWIM had done a reaction, then did only a little bit like smoked a few bumps, and then hours later fell right asleep. However SWIM will only sleep a few hours, then wake up and pop right outta bed, feeling more jacked than he was the night before. Didn't even do anymore, just spent the entire day with uplifted spirits and alertness that didn't make SWIM feel all like "BBBWWWAAAAA" bursting out of his skin, nut just alert and awake and normal. This is what good high quality meth does. There really isn't a strong jacked up "high" to pure meth at all. You ever go outside and do some jump rope, and then maybe work out a little then run a mile or something. It gets those neurotransmitters flowing, and you'll feel good, energized, and euphoric, just like pure meth does (in fact SWIM uses this as a "meth substitute" during his break periods. Pure meth does nothing more than make you feel more normal. And sometimes it even allows some sleep. This is just what SWIM thinks of as "as good as it gets". Tweaking out and such is a product of dirty dope or undercooked dope, beleive me on that.
About the tolerance, SWIM has read somewhere in one of Rhodiums posts about tolerance to amphetamines, and in most cases it may take as long as a month before tolerance is completely back to normal, so a week to ten days of not using is not enough. Try not using for a couple months then try some. You'll be like goddam! Like SWIM had said in another post, it had been about three and a half weeks since doing any, and then SWIM had procured a little tiny bit (a pile the size of a pinkynail) of some peanut butter bullshit that was extracted from gakked batches that were saved. SWIM ate it, and it kept him awake nearly two days. In fact, SWIM was utterly blown away by the potency of this gakked crap, which just three weeks earlier SWIM would have tried the gakked shit and thought it to be uttermost crapola that didn't do a thing.
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Another thought occured as soon as SWIM hit the submit post button. Exactly how did you clean your product? Did you use the alcoholic KOH methods to try and break the gakk? If you did, the answer is staring us all right in the face.
Someone above mentioned the possibilty of it being l-meth, or high concentration of it. Well, search organic chemistry reactions on how to racemize a pure optical isomer, and you shall find that an alcoholic KOH treatment usually does the job, giving racemic mixes. In which case the product you have is racemic to the max. Problem thus solved.
SWIM is done with pills. SWIM thinks the extraction of pills is on it's way out. It's no longer practical. It sucks to slink around from town to town buying boxes of pills, fearing the watchfull eye of big brother, spending way to much money, and taking way to much risk. I mean come on, this is archaic. What are you all gonna do when they finally ban pseudo too? It's probably gonna happen in the future. This is good though, cause it's becoming time for the REAL chemists to shine through and persevere. Pills are a way of the past, akabori and l-PAC production are ways of a future generation. SWIM knows that the older members here who swear by the pills will disagree, but thats just a part of the world. The older you get, the more stubborn you get, period. It's just like the parent telling the child to turn off that "rock and roll" music cause it's not real music. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but it's time for the veterines to sit back and watch a new generation work.
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Shorty: I can't rule out an incomplete reaction. Its hard to say any particular reaction fully completed, and hypo from sodium hypophosphite can vary from batch to batch. Yes, its possible. But it had all the outward appearance of a finished reaction. I may have pulled it too soon, but I let it reflux for hours.
Geez, what i was trying to say is that i have experienced the exact same results every since i started using sodium hypophosphite. The recrystalized product was not nearly as good as the acetone flashed product which in itself wasn't all that. This happened on average of at least 50% of my reactions. These reactions all used the exact same source of pseudo which was extracted in the exact same way.
From what i can see in a hypo rxn the rxn is usually over after about 2 hours. What i mean by over is that all the hypo has been oxidized to phosphoric acid and therefore there is no more hypo to regenerate the rxn.
Considering that making hypo with sodium hyphosphite and heating it to concentrate and remove the excess salt some of the hypo will be oxidized to phosphoric acid. So you will have a solution of h3po2 and h3po4 at an unknown ratio. If the ratio of h3po2 is not as high as required for the rxn the rxn will still run its course and everything will seem right but in fact there wasn't enough actual h3po2 to complete the job. Adding more of the same hypo solution doesn't help because you are also increasing the amount of h3po4 as well. This has been a problem for me for a very long time and i have no doubt that is your cause.
I finally decided to test my theory by adding a very small amount of rp after the rxn seemed to be complete. After the addition of the rp the rxn immediately began to produce gaseous HI and was allowed to react for a further 12 hours and the product was definetly much better. Since then i have run about 10-15 rxns the same way by adding a little rp but increased the reflux time to 24 hours and not one of these rxns has given me that same shitty result. Normally half of those would have had to bee reacted again.
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Well said Shorty. This brings me to the conclusion that the bad batch was either:A underreduced or B racemic or possibly C BOTH A AND B. Just from the very effects he described made SWIM think of all the undereduced batches he's had in the past that yeilded nothing but aziridine (see swim always steam distills, so no iodoephedrine would probably be left, it's all converted to aziridine).
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(see swim always steam distills, so no iodoephedrine would probably be left, it's all converted to aziridine)
Another substance that I would expect to show up in an underreduced batch is Chloroephedrine, as it formed from the aziridine in the presence of HCl [1], when titrating the batch.
Did anyone else observe (when steam distilling the result of an A/B of the post-reaction solution), that the solution that is steam distilled appears yellowish, even though no iodine can be detected? SWIN suspects that this is Chloroephedrine freebase, which has a yellow appearance[2].
Any input on this thought? If anybee is doubtful about the claims ([1],[2]), I will look up the sources, at this moment its just off SWIM's head.
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About the rest of that pseudo:
After this reaction, I did dissolve in MeOH and added NaOH and heated a few minutes, then added some water, boiled the alcohol off gently extracted into xylene and gassed for the salt form. Some loss in yield, no real improvement in quality. This was rinsed well, and dried. I then dissolved the pseudo in a chlorinated solvent/alcohol mix and let sit. I distilled out the solvent, added more alcohol, put in an evap dish and evapped, flashing with cold tone. I dissolved the pseudo in MeOH... What? It would no longer readily dissolve in MeOH. The fine filtration removed a good deal of some type of salt that was not present before. Comparable loss of weight in the pseudo to the salt present. Recrsytallized by adding acetone and allowing crystals to grow overnight. Acetone rinse of the crystals brought out a nasty oily fluid that has to be the remnants of whatever gakk finally was broken loose. The salt presence surprised me, and the oily gakk that came out after crystallization. Remember this psuedo had been recrystallized multiple times prior to the first reaction.
Since there really isn't a lot of pseudo left, and its a weekend, this pseudo will most likely be sacrificially reacted via a four to six hour red phos cook. Will post results when they are known, and the length of the post may be some indication of the quality. ;D
r_c: yep, similar symptoms. I never did the vicks inhalers, though.
amalgum: I agree with you assessment about good dope and its effects, and how you can sleep on good dope if you want and learn how, and know the difference between really good dope and crank. I've also done half-cooked batches of "sleeping geez" that will put you to sleep. This stuff wasn't tweaker dope at all. It didn't do any of the classic tweaker stuff, but on overuse really contributed to mental confusion and physcial discomfort. It was something besides an undercooked batch. Also, I assure you, its not a tolerance issue. I am well rested and have not been on a run of late at all. I noted above that I did dissolve in MeOH and add some NaOH, heated, then added water, etc. The next batch will tell me something about this approach. The pseudo from the last one had not been based and basted in alcohol.
Your point about being done with pills is well taken. I suspect that within the next year to eighteen months Most states in the US will follow my state's lead. If we are going to rely on black market pill sources, we might as well iron out some home lab approaches that are not pill dependent. This is likely a much taller order than this forum has faced to this point. Then again, if the option of making dope from a simple receipe is gone, the bees who haunt this forum habitually may become a group with a different personality and attitude. That might not be at all unwelcome (at least to Os). ;D
I acknowledge the prospect that the stuff could be in part underreduced. I am of the opinion that even if that happened, there is more involved her than an underreduced reaction. I've lost more than one reaction to underreduction, and know what you get. This stuff is not what you get. Granted, it could be A and B, but I am leaning more toward it being symptomatic of something other than underreduced. I was not familiar with these effects; I am familiar with the taste and effect of underreduced batches. I still remember what they are like.
Shorty-- I didn't have a problem with the hypo. It was very good, matched the iodine load with expected results and time to HI production, produced the HI without heating, and in fact I had to cool the solution down after the HI was made before I added the pseudo. I know the hypo will oxidize over the course of the reaction, but I cooked up to phos acid temps, and never had a problem with I2 falling out. I really don't chalk this up to underreduction from a variance in the hypo quality.
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>Who fucking cares if your 'gear' is 'potent' when you use several grams in only one or two days?! Even if it was only 50% pure then it's still way too much! Period! Quit doing monster lines, it's not about who is man enough to snort a quarter gram at once!
I ended up in a Mental Health Unit with drug-induced psychosis. :-[ Young and stupid. Now I wouldn't use more than 100mg in any 24hr period, and usually not even that. I wish I had taken heed of warnings like that few years ago! :(
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Another substance that I would expect to show up in an underreduced batch is Chloroephedrine, as it formed from the aziridine in the presence of HCl [1], when titrating the batch.
Very true, SWIM had forgotten about this aspect of the aziridine.
Did anyone else observe (when steam distilling the result of an A/B of the post-reaction solution), that the solution that is steam distilled appears yellowish, even though no iodine can be detected? SWIN suspects that this is Chloroephedrine freebase, which has a yellow appearance[2].
Do you mean in the distillate or the still flask? SWIM has seen all kinds of colors in the still flask, from yellows to browns to bluish greens. The distillate was always clear, sometimes a little cloudy, but never any color. As far as chloroephedrine in the still flask goes, SWIM doubts it highly, as the shit isn't exposed to HCl until titration. Meaning the still flask would hold aziridine/iodoephedrine still.
Will post results when they are known, and the length of the post may be some indication of the quality.
Heheh, I hear THAT ;) . SWIM always posts a freakin' novel after a good reaction hehe.
amalgum: I agree with you assessment about good dope and its effects, and how you can sleep on good dope if you want and learn how, and know the difference between really good dope and crank. I've also done half-cooked batches of "sleeping geez" that will put you to sleep. This stuff wasn't tweaker dope at all. It didn't do any of the classic tweaker stuff, but on overuse really contributed to mental confusion and physcial discomfort. It was something besides an undercooked batch. Also, I assure you, its not a tolerance issue. I am well rested and have not been on a run of late at all. I noted above that I did dissolve in MeOH and add some NaOH, heated, then added water, etc. The next batch will tell me something about this approach. The pseudo from the last one had not been based and basted in alcohol.
Ok ok. SWIM tusts your judgement. As far as the next batch goes, this will be a good way to test the possibilty of the racemate hypothesis, since the pseudo was no treated with base and alcohol. Although you said you used NaOH and alcohol, and not KOH. SWIM doesn't know if the NaOH is fit to do the job of racemization. Then again, this is still a little on the unkown side still. The pseudo that was treated with base wash may have been racemized, but also it may not have removed all the gakks. The way you prepared the current pseudo also falls under that concept. You may not have racemized it, and even removed some gaks that base wash didn't, but others that base wash did take care of may still exhist. Well, you get what I mean I'm sure. Theres still quite a few variables here to work out.
Granted, it could be A and B, but I am leaning more toward it being symptomatic of something other than underreduced. I was not familiar with these effects; I am familiar with the taste and effect of underreduced batches. I still remember what they are like.
You say true geez. Like SWIM had said he has had batches that turned out like yours with the same effects, and they WERE different than traditional undercooked dope. Maybe it is the gaks, or like I had said a little of both. Hrrrmmmm.
This is getting interesting.
xaja:
Yeah it'll do that to you. SWIM has seen the worst when it comes to amphetamine psychosis. From somebody desperately clawing at their skin screaming at us to "GET 'EM OFF ME", to somebody who was normal one second then talking with himself in multiple personalities in the next. All the while he LITERALLY held us hostage. Nobody could leave the room, he screamed about our "police team" in the trees outside and in the attic. Some windows were open and SWIM had a cold at the time that came with a nasty cough, and he literally thought we were "coughing signals" to our "team". Then he proceeded to tear up everything in the house one by one to shreds, looking for invisible listening devices he thought were planted all around, even shredded the couch cushions inside and out, spreading the guts about the floor sifting through them with a refridgerator shelf. I've been there and done that and have way too many t-shirts than I should have at my young age. It's horrible and scary, esp. when shit like that happens after a binge. Man it's hard to decide what exactly you should do when somebody flips like that and your life and freedom suddenly becomes on the line. Thats why I advocate quitting the drug every now and again and taking good breaks. Remember, mind and body comes before any drug, so take care of them!
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Chloroephedrine???
No, At least not in Marvey's case, as it only got very cold in the reaction, around the temperature of boiling ammonia, he says:
Post 503354 (https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=8639.msg50335400#msg50335400)
(dwarfer: "(-)( -) Pseudo, Selegiline, and YOU", Stimulants)
is worth reading: Gemini's contribution is key to understanding.
The present application provides pharmaceutical compositions and methods of using the
sympathomimetic composition of (-)-pseudoephedrine as a decongestant, bronchodilator, and the like.......
Moreover, (+)-pseudoephedrine can easily be converted into the controlled drug, (S)-methamphetamine,.......NO! Say it sin't SO!...
(-)-pseudoephedrine reduces the (S)-methamphetamine conversion problem of (+)-pseudoephedrine, because reduction of the hydroxyl in (-)-pseudoephedrine results in (R)-methamphetamine with substantially less psychoactivity than (S)-methamphetamine.
Also, it will take more than strong aqueous base,
if I read
the references Rhodium directed us to correctly.....
Post 447791 (https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=8609.msg44779100#msg44779100)
(Aurelius: "US pat 2797243 Racemization of l-Amphetamine", Stimulants) If you work on the precursor,
you can use a sodium alcoholate:
otherwise as you will note, the conditions are significantly more difficult..
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
oh well, y'all wanted to give up your nasty RP and Iodiotic ways anywho, din't ya? ;D
( I mean, as long as you have to have that alkali metal around, you may
as well use it OTHER ways tooo????) ;D
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Do you mean in the distillate or the still flask? SWIM has seen all kinds of colors in the still flask, from yellows to browns to bluish greens. The distillate was always clear, sometimes a little cloudy, but never any color. As far as chloroephedrine in the still flask goes, SWIM doubts it highly, as the shit isn't exposed to HCl until titration. Meaning the still flask would hold aziridine/iodoephedrine still.
What I wanted to say: in case the A/B of the post-reaction solution of E/I/Rp is performed before steam distill, the yellow shows up in the still flask.
So the post-reaction solution is filtered, basified, extracted with a non-polar, the non-polar extracted with aqueous HCl, which is basified again and then steam distilled. The Chloroephedrine forms when extracting the non-polar with HCl, if aziridines are present. The solution obtained in the receiving flask of the steam distill setup is always colorless to milky white.
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Use the Lassaigne Sodium Test to test for halogens, Cl,Br,I The halide is precipitated as silver halide, (AgCl, AgBr or AgI). Each silver halide has diferent physical properties.
Therefore if you suspect you have iodoephedrine or chloroephedrine you can determine which?
Lassaigne Sodium Test
http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~hs0bcl/gg/lassaigne_s_test.htm (http://www.sunderland.ac.uk/~hs0bcl/gg/lassaigne_s_test.htm)
Brief description
http://www.psi-net.org/common/safetyscience.pdf (http://www.psi-net.org/common/safetyscience.pdf)
Lab safety
http://wwwchem.uwimona.edu.jm%3A1104/lab_manuals/c10o8.html (http://wwwchem.uwimona.edu.jm%3A1104/lab_manuals/c10o8.html)
PROCEDURE:Place a piece of clean sodium metal, about the size of a pea into a fusion tube. Add a little of the compound (50 mg or 2 - 3 drops).* Heat the tube gently at first, allowing any distillate formed to drop back onto the molten sodium. When charring begins, heat the bottom of the tube to dull redness for about three minutes and finally plunge the tube, while still hot, into a clean dish containing cold distilled water (6 mL) and cover immediately with a clean wire gauze.
http://wwwchem.uwimona.edu.jm%3A1104/lab_manuals/c10expt25.html (http://wwwchem.uwimona.edu.jm%3A1104/lab_manuals/c10expt25.html)
Very good!
http://home.um.edu.mt/chemistry/CH230/4.Organic/Cp217.doc (http://home.um.edu.mt/chemistry/CH230/4.Organic/Cp217.doc)
In addition to the instructions given in Lehman, you should also carry out the sodium fusion (Lassaigne's) test, as described in Vogel, pp. 934-938. Care must be exercised during this test- ask your tutor.
Unknowns will be limited to the following classes: alkenes, alkynes, alcohols, aldehydes, ketones, amides, amines, carboxylic acids, esters, halides, aromatic hydrocarbons, thiols, phenols, nitroaromatics. Polyfunctional compounds may be included.
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Don't Bee Fooled by The Rocks That I Got! :o :-[ ;)
Dat-E-Legless!
Nothing like the Dat-E-LongLegs Ibee's accustomed to spinning long webtales with!
When Geez first posted this thread, The village idiot trapped inside my head whispered to me..."This looks like a job for the "CrashTestDummies"!
So off we went to the sanitarium again to see what the CTD's arrived at, and most importantly, if they held-UP and arrived in one peace! ;D
Two vastly different worlds collide in unison here sparked by the only one common denominator...pfed!
WareWoofs are famous for barking at the moon, but seldom will ya find `em barking UP the wrong tree.
Since so many variables exist, let's eliminate the speculations on those that are excluded as the possible causes in this case.
•Underreduced
•Racemic via pre-rxn basing
•Failed Rxn
•Hypo/HI or RP/HI rxns
While they may seem relevant in some cases, experience, practice, and "skill in the art" lead the way in analytical determination and consistancy.
Given geez's longstanding good rep in this field, I was confident he'd ruled out most of the possible causes before he even posted this thread.
I also knew we'd arrive at similar conclusions once the variables were narrowed down.
Amalgum: You brought up a key term describing what's missing in the picture here..."euphoria"
Add to that...some things that Ibee confirms along the lines of what brought this subject to all bees attention.
Health effects and general feelings of well-being seem to be affected.
Since long before this became an issue, Ibee's been keeping tabs on changes in formulations. It will be one year on the 31st since I posted thisPost 436832 (missing)
(wareami: "Brand Spanking Newts: (-)-pseudoephedrine", Stimulants).
It was around that time that the pfed xtal structure started changing.
This is not some overnight occurance.
They've been incorporating variances all along.
One month after that post, Ibee started noting pfed that had a striking resemblance to the meth xtal structure.
The latest findings are the oily polymer additives that are very deceptive when extracting. They retain a similar pfed xtal structure but they won't dry. Not only that but they are riddled with long bigger spike xtals mixed in.
They can be forced out with multiple solvent combo attacks but the slightest remnants of the oily denaturant going into rxn taint the batch.
Now the way they are including this new stuff is what makes it difficult to deal with.
Side by side identical extractions produce different results in crystal structure in identically timed alky pulls and evapped under the same conditions. All this following a prewash using JD/Tetra combo.
This could lead one to believe that they have incorporated different formulations in the same package.
The main idea for them would be to get the batch tainted any way they can.
Nothing is being ruled out and speculation will always continue but narrowing down areas of concern is key to circumventing what's been employed as denaturant and adulterant additives.
It's not like they have a grave concern for any bee using a product outside the intended scope of it's purpose.
Geez....The Kidz said they can relate to the flatulance issue based on the latest bio. Never once in the history of indugence has this been a recognizable occurance.
Since food is rarely in the picture on most of the Kidz ICEcapades, gas was rare as well.
Ain't it nice to know yer not alone? :)
The latest on this stuff proves that it just isn't the same.
The foggyness of thought and the lack of euphoria make for an unpleasant ride.
The sexual libido is stimulated but not as intense or longlasting.
The desire to consume more comes between 6-8hrs which really sets this apart from past experiences.
You'll be going right along in that disoriented fog and drop off the edge without warning.
No clear focus at all.
There was an unpleasant experience apart from the general bla`se bioassay during the end of third sleepless day.
Not sure what to think of it as it's never occured in the past.
Could have been from an introduced contamination as it was the very last.
Chills and finger numbing accompanied by throbbing headache.
Lasted about 2 hours and stopped by itself.
Stayed up for another 6 hours tinkering in the fog before the slumberjaks took control.
Upon waking...very lethargic and not at all exhilerated as with past experiences upon the initial awakening.
A few notes on the methanism mechanism employed.
HI/RP LWR that as Murphys Law would have it, was cut short due to all the Little Swimmers in the pool deciding to come outta their shell and take a dip in the vast exspanse of the OilBath.....OOOOOOOOOOOOoooooop!
Luckily, Ibee the Lifeguard, caught it, and knew what to do and acted quickly enough soas their little asses didn't fry too long.
Every indication was already decided that conversion took place and the end result confirmed it so that little mishap, while it may be a factor, isn't hugely significant on the outcome of the experiment overAWE.
Oh...and Dwarfer: You just won an all expenses paid, "7-Nights/0-Daze" vacation to the exotic seeside resort...."Bee-Line Highway", sponsored by "The Village Idiotic Society"! Expect an email notification on this and other exciting Pro-Motions once they figure out how to open the can of spam. Yer box will never be the same if ya got a little dick-around with enlargement concerns! ;) ;D
Thanx WizX...
One can never have too many tests!
It's the trials and tribulations we can do without :)
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Did I read this correctly Ware that you and the Geezmeister have both experienced some recent bouts of meth inspired flatulence?
Swim's buddy has allowed himself to lay off the stuff for the most part for the past month aside from dredging up old filter deposits and the unexpected used but strangely rejuvenated naphtha incident mentioned here. Post 507093 (https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=8277.msg50709300#msg50709300)
(ChemoSabe: "Further Weirdities from the new 120's", Stimulants)
But ever since this new era of gakks swept through the do-it-yourself-pharmaceuticalandscape swim still has had no outbreaks of apparent meth feuled gas blasting.
Futher weirdities indeed!
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Damn SWIM always gets gas. He also makes sure he eats certain things a certain times to make sure he stays healthy on a binge so that could be why to.
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However, does what i suggested make sense or should i bee looking elsewhere for the problems i have experienced? I thought i had it figured out (my problem) but now i am not so sure. Just to sum it up here are the main points.
The pseudo i used in all rxns for the past year has come from the same exact source and was for the most part extracted in the same exact way and as far as i know was of the same exact quality.
The hypo was made in the same way from lab grade sodium hypophosphite and labgrade 37% 12Mol. HCl.
The iodine was labgrade and or recycled from previous rxns.
The results were all steam distilled and then titrated with hcl and evapped on low heat followed by acetone flash.
There was no visible difference in those which were considered as good as it gets and those which were definetly not.
After recrystalization, the good ones got better the bad ones got even worse.
Does anyone have any idea what might bee causing this other than what i have assumed it to bee?
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is it possible that you have crystalline forms of various other pill ingredients. Maybe their molecular structure was manipulated by the process and the baby was lost in birth? check out my third post "True Blue" NH3/Li reduction... If you tryed this you may decide to give up all the soul searching ;) sure is headache free and grade A produce. There are very feasible methods for controlling NH3 vapors as well. Possibly a odorless or near odorless method that I am aware of. This coupled with a high quality NH3 generator proves to be the method to go. the NH3 generated by the NH3 generator can be captured in a cooled fire extinguisher and hung right on your living room wall as a safety device. see no, speak no, hear no, have no what?
sorry I don't know more about your dilema.
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Good on you ware for being 12 months ahead of the pack..
(woof woof)
Question # 1. Is chloroephedrine yellow? I think the .HCl salt of chloroephedrine is white.
Question 2. Is NaOH OR KOH in alcohol basic enough to
cause recematization of the amine group? It's a far cry
(i think) from the basicity of that proposition as compared to Na in alcohol...
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Proposal:
1 clean gups
2. per prior reference (See rhode's refs under the FAQ's for this forum) treat with Na in MeOH to effect racematization of amine.
3. per Wiz (et al) form chloro intermediary, with raceimization of the first moiety right ":<) of the ring.
4. per Emde's technique (modified), add Pd on C to acidic solution of chloro-methamphetamine. (solution # 1)
Prepare solution # 2 consisting of CaH2 covered by alcohol.
While being stirred, drip solution # 1 into solution # 2. Control temperature to <40C or so.
Avoid combustion of the hydrogen gas..
Bring to light boil to drive off most alcohol.
filter, basify, separate, and gas to phenomenal 96% yield
of 50/50 DL Ma. ":<)
(In my dreams..) ;D
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Question # 1. Is chloroephedrine yellow? I think the .HCl salt of chloroephedrine is white.
Correct, the .HCl of Chloroephedrine is white. I was talking about the freebase, which is yellow, according to Emde's papers on ephedrine.
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The rest of the pseudo extracted was assaulted with various and sundry attempts to clean it, none of which frankly did anything more than expose another foilant hiding in the mix and allow it to trash the process.
SWIG wound up with about two grams of pseudo to react. This appeared to be as clean as he could get it by means known and available to him at the time. The yield from this small reaction was a little over a gram of what appeared to be methamphetamine, which kept him up for three days and provided the missing euphoria.
While the stuff was not what he expects or desires (or lusts after) it was markedly better than the first batch, the high was much better, and the tendency to overuse and make oneself ill completely absent. This of course could be related to the MeOH/NaOH treatment of the pseudo, from the pseudo being cleaner, or from the reaction completing to a better degree because of any or all of the three.
At least I didn't make myself sick, but I don't care to even try an extraction of those pills again. For years they were my staple, and anymore they are simple far more trouble than I care to deal with. Then again, with the law in my state, dealing with pills at all has become pretty much academic.
The stuff was better than street quality by a long shot, but not anything to write home about, or brag about here. Or anywhere else. Then again, I'd do more tonight if I had it.
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Perhaps the use of phase transfer catalysts would boost the basicity up to cause racemization without difficulty.
For those unaware, swimming pool algae killer is 50% PTC, and other things will do, including (ironically) PEG.
With dry powdered Na2CO3 and/or NaOH in some nonpolar, give it hell.
Alternately, a nice wet reflux with NaOH might also destroy some gaks as well as racemizing your product.
Could we be returning to the days of P2P meth? What a surprise it would be!
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I really think so. Besides with P2P SWIM would hypothetically much rather spend maybe a little more investment with mainly time than current e methods, for a tremendously larger return. Fuck scrouging pill and shit to make an ounce, SWIM would love to maybe someday fall asleep and have glorious dreams of kilos of phenylacetone. Beleive it or not SWIM would have no interest in acquiring ten pounds to sell, he would bury the majority of it somewhere or maybe keep it dissolved in water that just happens to be sitting in some kind of innocent container, a beverage perhaps, and just keep it to himself and the closests friends who have been there and done that right along with me. SWIM has to think which is more risky, to possess a very large quantity over a long period of time, or to risk curious busy bodies or even a total fluke which may lead to your arrest becuase you have a life long interest and chemistry, and an interest of drugs and pharmacology (as well as those illegal substances that may be good psychological tools), and chose to do something illegal one day with that knowledge over and over again cause you have to keep making more.
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It's sort of funny to read that Homebrewing e/L-PAC thread. With Orgy as the one consistent trailblazer baffled as to why noone else seems to have much real interest.
Swim came into this scientific hobby all hyped on somehow thinking he'd jump straight into electrocatyltic hydro. Boy was he green.
He does still like thinking of possible means of personal supply science that would essentially bypass all usual LE "radar".
And much like amalgum he's also had ideas of maybe performing his hobbyist "chores" just once or twice per year at a decent quantity so that the scientific apparati can then be more than just half way put away and well stored.
Another intersting note. Swim knows of a lab which was once "investigated" and absolutely everything there that had to do with HI/RP was confiscated. Everything that had to do with electro was left behind.
PS - Palladium is damn cheap these days.
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I'm getting feedback by pms from more than one bee indicating the problem I ran into is one they are running into with the 120's. This suggests that the formulation of these pills may have changed.
Be very careful out there today, boys and girls. These pills may be dangerous to your physical and mental health-- At least if you try to make meth from them.
I am convinced that my best option now is to move to another route to meth. I just didn't have the lead time I thought I would.
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Post 447791 (https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=8609.msg44779100#msg44779100)
(Aurelius: "US pat 2797243 Racemization of l-Amphetamine", Stimulants),
Post 480374 (missing)
(Rhodium: "Racemization of Optically Active Ephedrines", Stimulants),
Post 480362 (missing)
(Rhodium: "Na alkoxide racemization of (pseudo)ephedrine", Stimulants),
Post 487660 (https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=8266.msg48766000#msg48766000)
(Rhodium: "Chlorination reactions of ephedrines revisited.", Stimulants),
Post 400334 (missing)
(SHORTY: "Re-Cooking Meth for Higher Potentcy", Stimulants)...
Note that in the last thread there is reference to the "recook" of poor material, with some significant
enhancement noted.
As can be postulated from the first referred threads,
racemitization can be accomplished in strong acids and strong bases. It is not totally unreasonable to hypothesize
that the reaction conditions themselves result in some
improvement to the material's steriochemistry.
There have been refs to the salubrious benefit of degrading
adulterants by exposure to strong bases (UF's "deconstructionist" thread)..
Some here may not have the sodium to make the sodium alcoholate referred to, but nobody can't get a lithium battery.
If KOH does the job, the pH 23?? or so of the alcohol and
alkali metal should do so even more thoroughly, while screwing around the direction of the (OH) on the pseudo, and maybe even flip the amine group, though the evidence is not clear in the literature, and Rhodium says not likely.
For that issue, however, it does appear to be directed specifically
in the references utilizing Raney Nickle.
[http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/Nipat.html (http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/Nipat.html)
]
Since Urushibara catalysts are similarly able to do the same things,
maybe the whole interfering construct of the pharmaceutical
pill-fuggers can be brought down.
Meanwhile, though: let there be no mistake. As in some other states, Pseudo will become harder to get..
===========================
So get your melamine camp fire fuel while you can, or your oil of almond:
the time will come when all this fun will be over, and you
will just have common old easy unfugged ephedrine alkaloids to
deal with.
won't that be a drag... :(
US patent 2608583 Racemization of Amines
Example 5:
The d-isomer of methamphetamine will be racemized
to the racemic mixture when 100g of methamphetamine
is treated with 10g of the catalytic material
comprising of nickel on kieselguhr which
is maintained at 145*c for 10hours.
The product maintains only 15% of
its original optical activity.
8)
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I am convinced that my best option now is to move to another route to meth. I just didn't have the lead time I thought I would.
Man....didn't Geez say a mouth full there!
I think we all knew that the underlying momentum would force Bees in the direction away from OTC's eventually.
In spite of how much fun it was bending over the undesirables and ramming home circumventions and work-arounds, the newest legislations have ripped that flightdeck from under our wings.
Unobtainium must be super-disappointed that the circumvention team has been halted because as word has it on the board(to hear him tell it :-[ ), he's got a circus-sized 8) member perfectly suited for driving it home where the pHarmanimals are concerned. :P
Just as our resident Master Dickaround Dwarfer is working hard at not giving in and giving UP, Ibee and The Kidz are struggling to hang on to the last frontier, commonly known as molecule molestation in order to flip things back in bees favor where the OTC market is concerned.
It's looking pretty Grim folks!
Okay....my question that may be viewed along the lines with DwarferTheory here...
Can the optical rotation of OTC pfed be easily identified as being either -l or -d?
And what about a simple test for a racemic mix -l and -d?
Can the Tyndall Effect be utilized in the analysis?
I've been thinking this tyndall effect may come in handy at some stage in extraction with some of the more hard to detect polymers and gaaks. I dunno?
But what about observing the isomer rotation with common household methods in determining -l and -d isomers?
Is there a simple way short of using radiation and space telescopes :-[
Whatta ya'll think?
Tyndall Effect Pics
(https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/hive/hiveboard/picproxie_docs/000506882-tyndall2.jpg)
(https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/hive/hiveboard/picproxie_docs/000506882-tyndall3.jpg)
And ya'll thought I was laying here scratching my head, takin an asswhoopin, without even the slightest public outcry? :)
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It'll still be otc to make meth. P2P can be made otc, trust me.
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Amalgum-- I agree on the OTC part. It just won't be through pseudo cold meds anymore.
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US Patent 6,399,828 has a few interesting tables. They did an HI red P cook at 100 C instead of at reflux and got 50% of what they termed "bis product". Perhaps that was the culprit? In any case, the patent is a good read.
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Them bastards stoled the LWR.... ;D ;D ;D
Goddammit...Who taught them how to cook??? :P :P :P
That is pretty freaky! If they'd have cme here complaining of low yields, I'd have advised them to cook longer to increase yield ;)
In the following experiments the analytical methods used include quantitative and qualitative analyses performed by high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) and gas-liquid chromatography (GLC) methods.
I. Prior Art Synthesis Methods
For comparison purposes, the two prior art synthesis methods mentioned hereinabove were tested and the results obtained.
1. Iodination of Norephedrine Hydrochloride and Reduction to Amphetamine ##STR6##
A 100 mL round bottom flask with a magnetic stirrer was charged with 20 mL 57% Hl solution. (1R,2S)-(-)-norephedrine (10.0 g, 0.066 mol) was then added to the flask with stirring. Red phosphorus (1.0 g) was added to the stirred mixture and the reaction mixture temperature then increased to 40.degree. C. within a few minutes. The reaction mixture was then heated to 100.degree. C. and samples were withdrawn at intervals for HPLC analysis. The results were as follows:
a. 2 hours (58% norephedrine, 6.8% amphetamine, 6% bis compound);
b. 4 hours (50% norephedrine, 10.2% amphetamine, 14.7% bis compound);
c. 6 hours (41% norephedrine, 15.6% amphetamine, 17.7% bis compound); and
d. 22 hours (48.95% amphetamine, 48.5% bis compound).
After 22 hours at 100.degree. C., the reaction mixture was cooled and filtered to remove the phosphorus. An oily layer separated (1.3 g, identified by GLC as bis compound). The aqueous layer was basified with 50% sodium hydroxide solution and extracted with ether. The ether extract was dried over anhydrous magnesium sulfate and concentrated to obtain 4.1 g of yellow oil, identified by HPLC as consisting of 83.23% amphetamine and 16.27% bis compound). The calculated yield of amphetamine was therefore 3.41 g (38.3%)
That is 3.41 g from 10g starter feed. ::)
Fuckin amateurs! :P
YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!
Patent US6399828 (http://l2.espacenet.com/dips/viewer?PN=US6399828&CY=gb&LG=en&DB=EPD)
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SWIG hoarded his sinus meds for a month and had almost enough to be worth cooking. He decided to reduce his moisture from LWR levels, to start the cook slowly, let it cook for a couple of hours, then increase the temperature of the cook significantly for several more hours. Hew used moisture level more like Wareami uses, mixed his ingredients in a test tube and capped this with a balloon, and placed in an oil/mud bath and slowly brought it up to 100C. After two hours at 100C the temperature was increased. SWIG would tell you how much it was increased if he possessed a working thermometer capable of measuring the temp, but the Borrowers seem to have made off with the ones he had that could. The mix was held at a significantly hotter temperatures... he would estimate the temp was at least 160C, for four more hours.
Yield was low, for whatever reason... it was a small reaction. The quality of the product seemed improved and the additional heat appeared to have cracked what polymer gakks were still with the feedstock. The meth was not particularly tweaky, which supports Placebo's argument that it is not the heat itself that makes for tweaky dope, but the heat early in the reaction when the risk of by product formation is higher.
Conclusions are entirely subjective, and as SWIG has enjoyed very little decent meth since the introduction of laws making pseudo products schedule V drugs in his state, but he thinks he is objective enough about the product to make an honest assessment that the increased heat appeared to resolve some of the gakk problem and did not produce dope with tweaky characteristics.
And it did not make him sick. :)