Author Topic: Thoughts on Extractions  (Read 2027 times)

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12cheman12

  • Guest
Thoughts on Extractions
« on: June 17, 2004, 11:46:00 AM »
Just wanna get some things down before i forget.

The ph level of stomach acids may go as low as 1 and as high as 3 or 4 when food is introduced.

So this should tell us that excess HCL in titration or whateva shouldnt do any damage at all to the pseudo molecule.

Infact maybe methods of using water with a very low PH level around 1 or 2 should extract pseudo from pills. The strong acid wont destroy the pseudo but maybe it will destroy and break down some of the gaks. It makes sense doesnt it? after all this is how the body does it.

geezmeister

  • Guest
previous efforts
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2004, 04:33:00 PM »
Previous efforts along these lines have not been successful. This idea has been floated many times before, and has been tried by more than one bee. I only recall one who claimed any particular success-- Hellman/Spectralshift claimed some success last fall, I believe, by boiling the gups in acidic water; he failed to give any quantitative results from his experiements.

Whether it will work with the newer polymers is beyond me, but by all means, give it a try and report your results. You might want to UTFSE to review earlier efforts along these lines.


12cheman12

  • Guest
yupp... i was sure this would of have been...
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2004, 04:48:00 PM »
yupp... i was sure this would of have been mentioned before.
Swim is thinking of letting his PM sit in a Very acidic solution for 24 hours.
This would mimic the same conditions (or close to) that the pills get in our bodys.
Letting the PM sit in this very acidic solution will have some kind of effect because i cant see anything sitting in water with a PH of 1 for a day not decomposing some what.
And this shouldnt effect the pseudo at all because if it did destroy the pseudo then there is no way it should be able to sit with our stomach acids.
Boiling it in this water wouldnt be a good idea IMHO, i think then this is were the pseudo could start getting destroyed. Maybe a temp of 37C would be ideal.

former_chemist

  • Guest
Newer GAKK
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2004, 06:11:00 PM »
The newer gakks won't release a damn thing if the pH is below a certain value, 5.5 comes to mind.  They were designed to prevent release till the drug leaves the stomach.

Some of these pills have an enteric coating that must be dissolved with a pH below that.  The coating is designed for these to prevent the drug from releasing before it enters the stomach.

Some of them also have gakk that prevents release at pH higher than 8 or so.  The only good news is that these gakks seem to break down when boiled with NaOH.

Of course formulations vary from brand to brand.  One of the box of reds I recently purchased appeared to have two slightly different color of pills in it.  I don't know if this is a flaw in the coloration or if they are now mixing different kinds of pills in the same box.  I'm using these for the intended purpose so I didn't waste time trying to figure it out.

wareami

  • Guest
Blood, Sweat, and Tears....
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2004, 08:09:00 PM »
If one were to look past the mechanics and dig deeper into the mechanisms, Such as what Former_Chemist points out with respect to enteric coatings, they'll discover that it doesn't stop with the release of pfed, solely!
The aim of the medicine is to provide relief to cold and allergy sufferers.
In order for that to happen, it must be delivered to the blood stream.
The digestive system is a poor environment as it's aggresive.
The dissolution studies prove that not all of the medicine will withstand that aggresiveness so they develop delivery systems to compensate for the losses.
It's easy for most to associate the meanings of everyday teminology such as Extended Release, Sustained Release, and Controlled Release to mean essentially the same thing.
Make no mistake here or you'll bee barking up the wrong tree until these meanings take shape in the proper context.
I recently saw a post by Uncle Fester that demonstrates how easy it is arrive at that common misconception.
It dealt with suggesting that the 30mg and 60mg might not be subjected to the same types of delivery systems/inactives as  their Longer acting cousins, 120mg and 240mg.
Not shooting the messenger here, just the message.
For example, The development of DryMatrix formulation was the first to cross over that line from being included in 120/240mg over to the faster acting immediate release 30/60's.
The DMF technology was developed for "Controlled Release" and employed in all strengths at one time, even redhots.
Controlled Release has little to do with Extended/Sustained Time Release technology developed solely for Longer Acting Meds. when it's being employed in fast acting meds.

Okay with that said....(and Ibee's no Doctor,so get your grains of salt out here ;) ) let's look more at how the drug is delivered. Most meds must be broken down and delivered the bloodstream. The delivery system is engineered to provide max dosage for relief.
The aim of bees is to get all of the drug out of that finely engineered "Controlled Delivery" system all at once. And in one piece
When the delivery system is designed to work with natural digestive processes to control the release, it's unlikely that anybee will duplicate a synthetic environment similar to that of the humanbody to accomplish that same means to an end without substantial loss of the product. And without damage to the molecule.
They account for the losses incurred in the digestive tract in their dissolution testing and development. The maximum allowable without prescription in any medicine is based on that testing.
The act of the body breaking down the med for acceptance into the bloodsteam is the missing ingredient, IMHO, with respect to these types of approaches!
I could be wrong... :-[
That's my take on duplicating the digestive actions in order to extract any main excipient from any pill.
It's info not meant to discourage, but to enlighten those that may not have considered this when trying to arrive at a solution.


barkingburro

  • Guest
the eventual path
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2004, 10:15:00 AM »
swibb has long thought this will be the ultimate route to not being limited by OTC pills. the gaaks have to go away in the body whether by high or low ph or by enzymes produced by bacteria (as is used in one delivery system to target the colon). swibbs been doing some readin here during his free time :

http://taylorandfrancis.metapress.com/app/home/main.asp?wasp=d48072eqvgcjqwe9xdf1



the problem with the hcl water trials is that they use water and water pulls gaak. so swibbs been throwing around the locked in ipa idea. hcl gas is soluable in cold ipa, when heasted this gas comes out. so that beign so a hot hcl/ipa extract may release he gaaks hold in some cases. perhaps this could be followed up with the patient application of a reverse osmosis device that would serve to imitate the walls of the digestive system. hopefully the psuedo and residual water in the ipa (or added water if needed) would come across. sans gaaks. i assume alcohols would also come across but that is hardly a serious issue.

now someone out there knows exactly how to get the psuedo out of these pills. they have to run tests to find out what works and what not, and the psuedo has to come out in order to quantify this. swibbs seen some mentioning of such a device or procedure but no specifics.... ultimately swibb thinks this is the only way to be able to get aorund the gaaks of the future

wareami

  • Guest
Modified Release...
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2004, 07:26:00 PM »
Okay....now that y'all had time to digest the above tidbits, we'll stack another layer of slop on the heap ;) ....yummy! :P
"Modified Release" is the newest technology and this involves the use of modifiers(ie..enteric coatings) to prevent the meds release in the digestive tract.
One might mistakeningly assume that coatings suggest outerlayer jackets and easily removed by the hatcheck :P .
They are outer layer coatings of individual granules of the main ingredients....pfed....triprolidine....chlorpheniramine maleate! Coated separately and then pressed into the pills along with whatever formulation they choose.
These coatings are the worst because they are developed to ride past the most aggresive parts of the digestive tract, being broken down in the process to release the drug in the colon gradually over time.
Attempting to activate the enteric coatings with solvents and such only complicate the extraction.
Bees are suggesting a process of using osmotic membrane which seems the most feesible since absorption is the mechanics behind the drugs delivery into the colon area.
I'm not at all convinced that the use of enteric coatings will exclude the coating material from being absorbed along with the meds it's encapsulated.
One would think that the breakdown process of cracking through the coating would deposit the coating in the digestive tract and be carried away and disposed of as waste.
So far the methacrylates have been described as main components of enteric coatings.
The ones in Eudragit are classified as mutagens.
This does not sound like something I'd like to be ingesting.
Are mutagens harmless to the human body?
Who Knows?
If they do present a level of concern, what are the processes of them being removed?
Many questions are left unanswered here on this.
The suggestions about duplicating digestive dispersion/absorbption of pfed, while it may seem an easy proposal, I'd venture to guess that unless one invested a few $10,000.00 on a type of machine used by those skilled in the art in their testing processes, A bee might come up, slighty disappointed.
But who knows...Ibee's carried out some pretty farfetched fancy footwork in the past using exotic solvents and pH adjustments alone. ;)
Maybe the missing link will be provided by including osmosis and absorption techniques???


UncleFester

  • Guest
ion exchange resins
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2004, 11:06:00 PM »
Has anybody ever come across the new goo release formulations in a 30 mg red hot? It seems to me that with a small pill like that the last thing they would want to do is goo up the release and slow absorbtion.
Now I'
ve been thinking that a great idea would be to use an ion exchange resin to suck up the pseudo out of solution, and just get your pseudo in clean form when you recharge the resin. I know that just getting an extract of these goo pills is a challenge. I tried 91% isopropyl on brand name 120's and extracted a regrettable mess....
However, once an extract is made, the pseudo should be pretty easy to collect on some ion exhange resin. You can get the stuff really easily at the aquarium shop nearest you.
I think that pseudo HCl is as a whole a cation...or is it that the HCl part is the cation, and the pseudo base the anion...? I will have to check...in any case by using cation exchange resin....or would it be anion exchange resin... the product could be collected pretty free of crap, and then the product obtained upon resin recharge...and you could use the same resin over and over. This method is used to get pretty pure lysergic acid from dirty solutions, so why not here??

UncleFester

  • Guest
more on goo...
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2004, 02:29:00 AM »
If I can get an extract from a pill which isn't goo, I'm pretty confident that I can then take that extract and get pure product in pretty good yield. It's that blue goo which I assume is from that patent I cited on the Deconstructionist Thought thread that has had my head spinning for the past couple of weeks. The patent makes clear that the intent is to delay release in the gut over a period of many hours so that they can sell you the one pill per day....

wareami

  • Guest
From the offices.....
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2004, 02:46:00 AM »
The R&D team that Ibee is consulting with from the offices of "Spreadem, Cough, and Squeal" are in the process of a postmortem biop-see on that patent you posted Unc.
The results should be in any time now.
It will hopefully disclose more of what bees are faced with in laymens terms.
But that deals with only one small part of the bigger picture because of the multiple layering formulations they are employing.
Knowing which pill contains which technology will only be half the battle.
Tailoring work-arounds for each will be the hard part.


UncleFester

  • Guest
but red hots..??
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2004, 05:27:00 AM »
The method I posted up was used on generic red hots which were formulated with Orange gak I according to the World Patent 00/15261. Alky extraction and KOH boil went through them very easily, but the extract from the pills was clear, so there was something to work with. This blue goo makes me a frustrated experimeter.