Author Topic: Vessel Sizes  (Read 1533 times)

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12cheman12

  • Guest
Vessel Sizes
« on: June 04, 2004, 09:38:00 AM »
I once saw a table on the rhodium site that listed different flask sizes and the range of Pseudoephedrine weights that should be used in each for best results.
This was of course for the push pull method and these days with the LWR the reaction is much more calm. So im wondering, what vessel sizes have people used and what would be the optimal size for nano reactions. Sizes under an ounce all the way done to a few grams. I hope this thread can help other people out and not just swim.

abolt

  • Guest
...a 1000 ml Round Bottom Flask should fit...
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2004, 10:59:00 AM »
...a 1000 ml Round Bottom Flask should fit neatly into a Lava Lamp.


12cheman12

  • Guest
obviously you have no idea what you are ...
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2004, 11:40:00 AM »
obviously you have no idea what you are talking about because there is no way of fitting a 1 litre RBF into a lava lamp. And a 1 litre RBF is WAY to big for the maximum size i stated, an ounce. So please dont but in where you obviously have no knowledge of what you are talking about.

abolt

  • Guest
Headroom
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2004, 11:43:00 AM »
.......all Lava Lamps are not born equal.

How can a reaction flask be "TOO big"?

What are you going to use to time your reaction?

I use a sundial?


12cheman12

  • Guest
a reaction flask CAN be too big, you should...
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2004, 11:54:00 AM »
a reaction flask CAN be too big, you should know this. What this thread is about is finding the OPTIMAL size for nano reactions. Obviously 5 grams in a 1000ml RBF is NOT what you want.

abolt

  • Guest
Obviously 5 grams in a 1000ml RBF is NOT what...
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2004, 12:03:00 PM »
Obviously 5 grams in a 1000ml RBF is NOT what you want.

First of all, you stated: Sizes under an ounce all the way done to a few grams.

Secondly, for the LWR, how would a 1000 ml flask fail where a 250 ml flask would not?

..........unless, of course, you are the kind of person that would cook a potentially dangerous reaction in a jam jar, over a thin piece of glass, enclosing a hot electric element, that would produce obvious hot and cold spots.(AKA, a Lava Lamp) :P


Red_Crown

  • Guest
Wetness
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2004, 12:43:00 PM »

Secondly, for the LWR, how would a 1000 ml flask fail where a 250 ml flask would not?


More area for condensation, effectively taking some water and HI ~out of the reaction area. (Mind that with an RBF, from the bottom-up, the diameter first increases and then decreases. The latter of which is the only trend that promotes "reflux" of the contents back down.) Compensation would be prudent, but I doubt a reaction would totally "fail" otherwise.

Wouldn't an Erlenmeyer flask be ideal for a LWR?


weaz1dls

  • Guest
Warlock
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2004, 12:46:00 PM »
here






Flask
The flask used is often a flat bottom with a rubberized stopper, florence , erlenmeyer, or a vacuum flask.
The flask can be almost any glass device such as a bottle, champagne bottles are preferred because the can  handle the pressure. Buy flasks and stoppers at a Home beer and wine brewing supplier. Coke bottles can be fit with a single large diameter hose leading outside for small batches

Sizes
Flask Size ( ml) Safest Maximum
Weight of Ephedrine( gm) Range  of E  weights (gm) high  will tend to blow out the top
250       7.5         1 - 10
500       15          7 - 22
1000      30          15 - 50
2000      60          30 - 90
4000      120         60- 150
1 oz of ephedrine / 1000 ml of flask
 
The larger the flask the more important it is to heat it evenly, A new large flask will break on a hot plate that is too small.
In one week I broke a 12 liter and a 6 liter flask because I used heat to get difficult reactants to fire up. Better would have been to increase the iodine and RP.
If you have a poor quality reactant it is best to increase the amount of the poor reactant a little, and to increase the amount of the good reactant a lot. It does not help to add a lot of a shitty reactant







LWR require less space for groth as the above sugestions.

Nano reactions work well with a condencer with a restricted entrance.  For a visual, picture a glass dropper fitted into the top of a dram.  The small conical opening acts as a precondencer, yet still allows flow for gasses and pressure changes.  Usually there will be some fluid collected that bubbles, further adding to the eficiency. 8)


Red_Crown

  • Guest
Great idea!
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2004, 02:37:00 PM »

Nano reactions work well with a condencer with a restricted entrance.  For a visual, picture a glass dropper fitted into the top of a dram.  The small conical opening acts as a precondencer, yet still allows flow for gasses and pressure changes.  Usually there will be some fluid collected that bubbles, further adding to the eficiency.


Great idea!
You do mean with the dropper in this orientation right? (..essentially a dropper bottle with a shortened dropper..)
 

Easy, efficient, OTC, etc.
Awesome.


12cheman12

  • Guest
weaz1dls, what you posted was what i was ...
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2004, 05:17:00 PM »
weaz1dls, what you posted was what i was talking about in my first post. Those figures are talking about the push/pull method which requies a larger size due to the more violent nature of the reaction.
Im tring to find out things like,
- Will a 50 ml flask work for 5 gram reactions?
- What is the smallest size you could use for a 10 gram reaction.
Things like this. But in refrence to the LWR instead of the push/pull like the table posted.
Maybe since the LWR doesnt expand so violently like the push/pull does, as long as the contents dont pass half way up in the reaction vessel then it will work, or will this be to crowded.
Does the LWR need alot of head room for the HI gas or if you are cooking with low temps can you cram those ingredients in there.

wareami

  • Guest
Vessel Shape...
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2004, 05:46:00 PM »
Damn The Torpedo's!
Flask sizes and shapes all factor into success ratio's.
For instance, If a bee were to run a micro-nano 1g run in a 12oz beer bottle, P/P or LWR, chances are things inside would fry to a crisp because of spreading.
The LWR is more forgiving because of the excess DH2O and lower temps, but consideration should be given to the hotspots and heat concentration where the reactants are spread very thin.
Head room isn't a large concern in the LWR, but surface contact of the reactants is.
If HI is being generated at 57%+, you'll most likely want minimal flask headroom for the Liquid/Gas recycling that occurs at the condensation point. Too much headroom means longer traveling distance to and from the condensation point.
The Push/Pull system is set up with watertanks and Ibee would think that excess HI would travel to the h2o.
Ibee always thought the P/P system to rely more on heat for reduction along with constant HI percentage than solely on HI recycling as with the LWR which uses the excess dh2o as a vehicle of sorts.
This would account for the longer gentle refluxing reduction period. IMHO


weaz1dls

  • Guest
Kinda
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2004, 08:20:00 PM »
Ok examples...Swiw has a few air cooled rest-condencers...most used device is by far the glass baster.  The bulb removed and cut in half makes a perfect filtration gromet. The glass portion can be put into a stopper or chair leg stopper.  The chair leg stoppers fit most ordinary bulb or say an oriental sauce bottle makes a wonderful 128 ml flask/condencer setup. Need more length?  A florecent light tube cleaned and pulled at the end to a point. Move up the tube some heat-n-spin then pull.  Repeat and before you know it wallah!  Restricted entry air cooled bulb condencer.  Disposable!  Reuse ti later with a tube attatched as a sep funnel.

 The favorite setup is an 8oz or a 12oz vinegar bottle.  Looks just like a round flat bottom flask. The long neck with baster at top. 2 hole stopper in the top of the baster.  Through one hole is inserted an aquerium air pump valve.  Tube and seringe attatched from there for one way water addition.  The other hole has a glass tube pulled to a point creating the second restriction.  From there is a vinyl tube conected to a colapsable camping water container with it's own valve. This sitts attop a lava light 40 watts with reostat and marked positions for temps.  Connected to the lamp base are paralel fashioned rods in the configuration of a bannana hanger. At the end of that is an expandable loop that holds the neck or baster or floro tube condencer etc. And finally There is the extendable antena for the elevation of the tube to the bag.  This all sits at a perfect hight of the remote verticle squirl cage floor fan that cools the uper part of the setup. And of corse the foil baffle here or there and if you can't DUCK it ...Fuckit! DUCT er DUCK tape secures the base if needed or becomes an instant overhead support.....yada yada.  If you are real creative A test tube heated and blown out just a bit with the above condencer setup has been known to be a success over a candle in the dead of winter no electric available.

weaz1dls

  • Guest
Red Crown
« Reply #12 on: June 04, 2004, 08:23:00 PM »
cut the bulb off the dropper and pull the glass through so it is above the dram with just the pointed portion in the dram and that is the basic idea. ;)

weaz1dls

  • Guest
Setups
« Reply #13 on: June 04, 2004, 08:37:00 PM »
The Baster setup with bag is for those mix-n-spit PIE reactions with just enough moisture to get things flowin when warm.  Ya know the one that getts real testy after about 30-45 min of heat. ;)  

 The slightly more delicate 3 bulb 18 inch floro tube works well with a plug in the top made of cotton wadded in the corner of a ziplock. If the ratios are right and water addition allows for a LIGHT bubbling that blug won't budge for the full 36 hrs or less after the running temp is reached of corse. Keep air going across the condencer now, and light is not recomended for extended jacuzi visits. ;)

The Baster attop the oriental sauce bottle has worked many a time.  Use the chair stopper with hole as a heat buffer between the flask and baster. Up to 5 grams will be fine here.  If the air across the baster is not cool, say 67 degrees in the room and baffles are not incorporated heat will drive the vapor well beyond the top. Glass beads in the baster also help on 8-10 hr cooks.  Watch out for to much surface area it will rob your reaction of moisture.

PsuedoPsycho

  • Guest
You are the McGiver of the 21st Century!
« Reply #14 on: June 04, 2004, 08:59:00 PM »
Weaz1dls we need more helpfull posts like these
to keep all the newbee's like my self in cladestine
knowledge and stitchs. Ive been reading at the Hive since
1998 and I have to say Hat's off to you,Worlock,Jacked,
Placebo,Curbshot,Dwarfer,Waramie,geezer,monkeeboy,etc.
and also the almighty Rhodium!!

weaz1dls

  • Guest
Die hard readers
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2004, 09:07:00 PM »
Will pick up tequniques shared here and there.
Hell, well deserved treasures for those willing to wade through some rants! ;D


Red_Crown

  • Guest
Nano Nano
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2004, 10:41:00 PM »
Well, I photoshop-assembled the previous vessle, and am keen on the idea (just for fun) of everything being ready-to-go straight OTC. Cutting any bulbs or this' or thats necessitates good seals, which are potential weaknesses for many the newbee.. Would it really matter if a bottle and dropper were found where the dropper is itsy-bitsy relative to the bottle length (thus top of rxn fluid)? And I figured the dropper bulb would be sufficient containment for a nano LWR, because they're not usually very tight fitting and any unlikely excessive pressure can just blow itself off (fuck it, you know? especially since you have a bubbler there catching HI all the while). Anyhoo..

Here's one: Take a long glass straw (or best yet, one of those twirlie ones), flame heat a spot, pull apart and break to form a tip (or not, whatever), and there you have a condenser so relatively large that balloons etc won't be needed.


...
I've been thinking about a "Pico-Scale Holy Grail" type-setup for a while now.. some sort of ultra-small multi-chambered, but solidly 'single' unit where you can just:
1) Throw in the reactants, turn on something harmless (or ie, throw a whole bouyee-type vessel into the jacuzzi), and forget about it..   .. Yes, "Set it and forget it." ..
2) And where you can do most, if not all, of the post rxn work-up right there among the same vessels. Filtering, basing, distilling, washing, etc etc..

This present idea, weaz, may go a long way to help achieve this goal. Now the dropper (which already with packing=filter) can also be the condenser.