Author Topic: Problem gassing generic 120's  (Read 46679 times)

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ChemoSabe

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Low Yeilds - Baby's in the Bathwater
« Reply #40 on: March 24, 2004, 12:36:00 AM »
One thing that's consistent across the board with the new gakker is that all seem to consistently report lower than usual yeilds in both extraction and in final product.

The major effect of this gakk seems to be that of making the precursor and the reduced product not entirely polar or non polar in nature. This means that anytime it goes through a process involving either a non polar or polar solvent another portion of it will stay with whatever solvent was used. Any polar or non polar washes will both rob you of yeild.

The advice to "save everything" has never been more applicable than the present moment.

Baby's in the bathwater.

PS Swims buddy recently let a beaker full of the xylene used in the final stages of a psuedo extraction/clean up evaporate fully. At the bottom of the beaker were some honkin' huge psuedo crystals.


Relux

  • Guest
another succeful purification
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2004, 04:30:00 AM »
I continue to read the post of long soaks, multiple recrystallizations, a multitude of different solvent washes and boils and evaporations. Feel free to continue doing this, all ye who have success and find ease in this, but I had an ok time extracting pseudo from some red hots with very little trouble

What I did was:
-stick all the pills (306 pills, 30mg each) and placed them in a normal margarita type blender and blended to a fine powder. The red coatings did not break up nearly even closely as well as the inside and I removed the majority of the red coatings by passing through a mesh screen with fine holes. Only a few small flakes of red remained.
-This powder was put in a flask, 125mL of 99% IPA was poured in and flask heated until near boiling for about 2 minutes. This was supernatant was filtered through very finely divided perlite to obtain a perfectly clear slightly pink solution that when somewhat below room temperature begins to precipitate.
-This was all evaporated in the sun (30 minutes or so), scraped up and placed in a flask where an ambiguous amount of toluene (sorry, roughly 100ml) was poured in and heated until near boiling then pipet-fulls of 99% IPA were added while remaining near boiling just until all of the crystals dissolved.
-This flask was then placed on a book and allowed to slowly come to room temp (tons of cotton-like crystals slowly begin to form) , then placed in the fridge and allowed to cool further (more xtals), then placed in the freezer while I prepared a buchner funnel.
-The crystals were then filtered and washed liberally with freezing cold toluene, then allowed to dry. The mass of cottonballs (5.9g) that remained were a very slight pink, with a melting point of 179-183 (theile tube).
-The crystals were dissolved in 15 mL of water and 5M NaOH was added until the pH was around 12.5-13 (crappy pH papers) to obtain a crystalline sludge.
-25mL quantities of toluene were added and stirred vigorously in an attempt to dissolve the freebase (occasionally letting the mixture settle until some of the clear non polar could be sucked off with a dropper). This took many additions of toluene (approximately >150 ml, forgive me but I did not write this down). The remaining water layer was a foggy peach color.
-The foggy toluene that was collected was filtered,dried with sodium sulphate, then evaporated in an open dish under the kitchen hood (  :P  ) to obtain 4.4g of clear colorless rectangular crystals with a melting point of 119.
(59% yield)

This was cake to perform, the only pain being evaporating the toluene. The crystals look clean as can be and are practically odorless (with a faint, and I mean faint, smell of toluene). Of course, I suspect it will lose that smell soon. I have not yet reacted using this purification product.

CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
cheesy gassing?
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2004, 03:00:00 PM »
chemo;
in swim's bizzare find, the surprise wasn't that there was a tiny baby in the bath water, so to speak, but that the scraps were clean...even though the main rxn product was not. only difference was lack of np wash.

a ? on gassing while i'm here:
any one ever try gassing straight from a bottle of muriatic acid, fitted with a tube? or is that HCl too wet?
(i mean, the vapor that comes off the bottle)

UncleFester

  • Guest
baby in the bathwater
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2004, 07:25:00 PM »
This gak certainly does have the ability to suck up NaOH. If to the water mentioned in my previous post, an additional portion of NaOH is added, then more square flakes of pseudo free base are thrown out of solution. Total yield of this crude material I would guess at 75% or so of possible.

geezmeister

  • Guest
pseudo in nonpolar on evap
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2004, 08:38:00 PM »
Chemo's experience mimics my recent experience. I saw pseudo on the side of every container of nonpolar solvent used. Not much, necessarily, but in every beaker, ever bottle. The same thing was true of meth after the reaction. I had some limited success against the demon in the last batch, but still noted pseudo turning up everywhere it normally would not.


wareami

  • Guest
Amphoteric...
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2004, 01:15:00 AM »
This is the encapsulating effects of this new gaak.
It will settle out given time!
It has an active life and when it dies, it loses it's ability to retain the goodz...either pfed or meth!
If it's pulled along with the goodz when active, it will require alot of naoh.
It will also retain it's ability to hinder xtal formation.
When it deactivates over time, all the goodz will be there and will then again be allowed to xtallize.
Strange stuff!
InRe to charlies ? about detergents since we're on the squeakyclean baby bathwater subject.
The only foreseeable problems with using detergents in extraction are the same as using oils in extraction.
They are a bitch to get rid of once they are introduced into the picture.
There is no gaurantee that the detergent won't contaminate the goodz! Or create emulsions or introduce other locking agents when mixed with these newage co-polymers.
It's like how even soap residue on glassware can reek havoc on experiments outcomes if not removed first!
Ibee likes clean feedstock but doesn't know if he wants to GO the detergent route just yet!


CharlieBigpotato

  • Guest
these exotic gakks
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2004, 04:05:00 AM »

UncleFester

  • Guest
superheated steam experiment
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2004, 02:06:00 AM »
A friend of mine had some time to kill so he experimented upon the previous posts concerning this subject. As was noted earlier, if some more NaOH was added to the water precip media for the sudo free base, more fell out...His first move was to pull the old filter out of the freezer, and pour the new batch through the same filter to get them all together....the new batch and liquid(which had been in the fridge settling) dissolved half of the orginal batch of crystals as they filtered through. That really sucked. Then to see if superheated steam would work on sudo free base, he shoved them into a flask, added 20 ml water and a couple chips of NaOH to make sure the gak was based, and then inserted the flask into an oil bath. While it was heating up, a line from a pressure cooker was lead in(plastic connection to glass tube) and the oil was heated to 160 to 180C. As the water boiled down, the cooker started to spout steam. The steam was lead in as it boiled, and then to keep the flask from geting dry, plenty of water was applied. The water coming out smells like pseudo, but not enough to make crystals, nor enough to taste like pseudo. Dead end on this line of experimentation with steam and pseudo. It can be made to work with ephedrine, but sudo is a non starter.

elfspice

  • Guest
pseudo does not steam distill
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2004, 03:15:00 AM »
unless i am remembering incorrectly. This property may be useful if the gak you are battling can be steam distilled...

UncleFester

  • Guest
references...
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2004, 03:46:00 AM »
I sucked my head into this pathway because I have numerous refs for steam distill of ephedrine, and have tried that one. If you have ref for no distill of pseudo, would you share it? Then forevermore I shall be less of a Raven.

wareami

  • Guest
Bees efforts at....
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2004, 04:26:00 AM »
Steam distillation of pfed have failed miserably by all reports and that is what makes that method distasteful to most.
Not one of those accounts however have persuaded The Kidz that it can't bee done.
The problem always seemed to stem from the endeavor pulling all the gaaks and inactives along with the pfed.
Fractional distillation should work but Ibee has never heard of a crafty enough bee building such an apparatus.
He's game as he needs to refine and build on his nonmenclature skills anyway.
It's only a stonethrow away if the imagination doesn't poop out first.
Those unturned stones may seem distasteful at first until a treasure of forbidden fruit is revealed.
It's much like the obstacles to TLC and having the blueprints spelled out before anyone is willing and able to put it into practice in such a way that a method is devised in laymans terms that will lead the pack.
After AWE, two years ago, who'd of thought that a bee would need an equilancy degree in chemistry just to be able to separate a freakin pill from it's adulterants and polymerscience playmates? 8)
Uncle Fester has a head start and it may just be a matter of putting heads together!
I've said it before...the knowledge is available for those that ask the right questions with half a degree of intelligence and a plan of attack.
The groundwork is layed IMHO and now it's time to get to work on some of the stumpers that others fell short on before.
A mini fractional distillation still????
Does any bee think that it would do the job?
If so....let's build one and put it to the test.
Wattayasay?
Ibee's Game!


elfspice

  • Guest
sublimation?
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2004, 05:23:00 AM »
why not try subliming the pills. It wouldn't take much to do this under vacuum (wide mouth flask with a test-tube in it for the cold finger and glass tube in a little other hole attached to a hose and a vacuum pump) doing the sublimation under vacuum would greatly reduce the risk of decomposing the pseudo. The basification preparation to do this probably should involve some magnesium or calcium oxide or hydroxides as these both won't react beyond pH levels (that is to say, they won't make a solution higher than 10 and 12.5 respectively once they reach saturation of the water) with the material when dry, as NaOH would - just add the dry MgO or CaO, a little water to get it damp, then gently heat it over a hot water bath until all the water is boiled back out, and maybe a little higher, but stay shy of 20 degrees below pseudo fb's bp. Then heat it to the bp of the fb and the cold finger will pick up the pseudo and crystallise it.

i can't see why this wouldn't work, unless pseudo decomposed more readily in the vapour phase to the extent of making it impractical, and in that case, vacuum might fix that problem.

I think this would work, because polymers have much higher boiling points than the precious... :D

Maybe do an a/b extraction or an alcohol extraction on the pills, acetone wash, all that, before doing the sublimation to reduce the amount of other things that can easily be removed from being sublimed with the precious.

If there is issues with stability of the pseudo at it's boiling point another means of eliminating damage would be to flood the sublimation container with inert gas, perhaps to be totally ghetto, flood it with your nitrous bulb machine ;D before sealing it up and running the sublimation.

kris_1108

  • Guest
Bio
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2004, 05:39:00 AM »
Biotechdude is the king of steam distilling eph but he does it from plants...

biotechdude

  • Guest
comments
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2004, 08:58:00 AM »
haha, if he's the king..., Dwarfer is the QUEEN. Or is that the other way round!?  Swix rates himself as the Petty Peasant ::)

Steam distilling ephedrine is labourious and annoying at the best of times; but DOES work.  Steam distilling straight pseudo would be even less sucessful, and would require superheated steam (ala Dwarjet) and or fractional distillation if the polygaak is steam volatile as well.  However, it MAY work with the variables nutted out properly...

As a side, Swix's thoughts on the new Polygaak surround INTRODUCING a specie to which the poly gaak has a greater affinity for than pseudo.  Like if an ugly chick wont leave u alone, introduce her to your ugly mate and leave them to have their fun together while u slink away undetected.

This hypothesis evolved as it seems polygaak does not stick around based on solubility similarities (to pseudo and meth) alone.  It seems there is some other attraction forces between the polygaak and our fav amines.  Then, if the introduced specie can interact with polygaak and 'bully' out the pseudo etc.., solvent separations may prove more useful. 

Just a thought...

UncleFester

  • Guest
vacuum distilling pill extracts
« Reply #54 on: March 27, 2004, 03:48:00 AM »
It's an obvious solution, and probably wouldn't require any fractionation, but there are two problems with the approach. First of all, many folks work on scales of a gram or two or three, and that wouldn't even wet the insides of the glassware. Losses would be unacceptable. Secondly, it's gotten hard to find an aspirator that will pull down to 20 mmHg or so to make it easy to do a clean vacuum distill.
As to my call for references, I've read a bunch of references, and while they always state ephedrine is volatile with steam, I've yet to find one that said that pseudo was impossible to distill with steam. That made my experiment not only a fun adventure, but also an answer to myself as to whether it could be forced out with a lot of heat.

UncleFester

  • Guest
introducing a specie ...
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2004, 03:52:00 AM »
I had the same thought myself a couple weeks ago, and wondered if ammonia would successfully compete with the gak. Then I thought about the problems of getting the xs ammonia out of the mix and said there had to be an easier way...

UncleFester

  • Guest
World Patent 00/15261
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2004, 12:23:00 AM »
Does anybody have a copy of this patent laying around?? I've misplaced mine for the moment. As I recall, the patent mentioned a plan to encapsulate gak onto bags which are primed to open up when exposed to solvent presoak followed by NaOH. As I recall, Eudragit was one of the pus bag fillers mentioned. I may be remembering wrong, but it's floating around my head and may suggest the way to extract without getting that crap into the mix.

Rhodium

  • Guest
ep.espacenet.com has all the patents
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2004, 02:27:00 AM »
We have [patent] tags on this board, making it possible to link to

Patent WO0015261






UncleFester

  • Guest
thanks much!
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2004, 03:02:00 AM »
That patent generally describes what is now on the market, and I will look for more patents filed by likely suspects to see what else they have been up to.

SQUIDIPPY

  • Guest
ageing
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2004, 10:57:00 PM »
If what ware says about the shortened shelf life of this new Gak, is so.
Is it possible to somehow accelerate the ageing process?

UV light is the first thing that comes to mind.