Interesting article about extraction techniques

[Giver_Hell]

SWIG ran across this on another forum. Thought it was was a good read:

http://www.fd.org/pdf_lib/Meth_extractionarticle.pdf

[jemma_jamerson]

abstract:

presented to clarify this concept.

 Pre Study 100 tablets X 60 mg/tablet (dosage amount) = 6.0 grams Pseudoephedrine (theoretical maximum) 6.0 grams Pseudoephedrine X 0.92 (conversion factor) = 5.4 grams of Methamphetamine This is at 100% conversion. With the results of this preliminary study, the following calculations are presented. Post Study 100 tablets X 60 mg/tablet (dosage amount) = 6.0 grams Pseudoephedrine (theoretical maximum) 6.0 mg Pseudoephedrine X 70% (average extraction ratio) = 4.2 grams PSE available for synthesis. 4.2 grams Pseudoephedrine X 0.92 (conversion factor) = 3.86 grams of Methamphetamine. This is at 100% conversion.

who gets 100% yeild

[SQUIDIPPY]

Ya, I agree. 100% extraction is, for sure, not possible, due to losses to filters and such.
From my understanding 100% conversion is also not possible.

[kris_1108]

In the article, they soaked a crushed 240mg tab in 50mLs of methanol for 1 hr, and another 240mg tablet was soaked in the same for 2hrs. Without opening the PDF again, I recall the 1hr soak yield was around 80%, whereas the 2hr soak yield was LESS at about 60%. How can that bee explained? SwiK thought longer soak times could only ever make more solutes dissolve in the solvent!

There must have been some solutes present that dissolved fairly readily in the MeOH and then precipetated out (is that the correct term?) afterwards. Could this have been pseudoephrine HCl? Or is it more likely a different ingredient?

This could affect procedures such as a xylene or turpentine soak to remove povidone. An overnight soak may dissolve the povidone, however a one week soak may bee useless???

[jemma_jamerson]

may be possible but thats only if im correct only about 90% or so, again who gets 100%,

perhaps the author should become a bee, and enlighten us all

[Shane_Warne]

Welcome to www.fd.org!     
 

     This web page is maintained by the Defender Services Division Training Branch (DSDTB) of the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts to provide Internet-based support to attorneys appointed under the Criminal Justice Act (CJA), 18 U.S.C. § 3006A , to represent financially-eligible defendants charged with federal offenses. www.fd.org contains many valuable resources for the CJA practitioner.

* Criminal Justice Act (CJA) Case Budgeting Worksheets are now available at FD.ORG. Click Here for available .WPD and .PDF formats

Well it's a legal site, that makes sense. But why is it a legal defense site?

Prosecuters want to argue that 90-100% is commonplace.

I've seen similar experiments done in the name of reality and truth, where 60% yields for extractions were obtained.
The experimenter on the other site was arguing that prosecution claiming 100% or close to it, were fucking liars, and that his results firsthand (him being an expert) showed that 60% was a more realistic conversion and yield, for use as evidence.

[wareami]

Giver_Hell: Nice peace ya found thare!
jemma: Surely you remember that old Edgar Allen POE`em written by Jonathan LivingStoned Egull?
You know...the one that allowed a bee to pull past 100% if they weren't paying attention and doing shit by the book?
If you can pull past 100%....you can't help but pull the 100%.
Visuals are a bees best friend in a world ware much is left to the imagination.
Those visuals, where applicable, were noted in fine detail and bees still had the propensity to tweek things their way instead of following the instruction.
That's human nature though and to be expected in a world AWEways in search of a bigger wheel.
Before the pHarmers made a pill that sidestepped The Egull Method, Ibee and The Kidz enjoyed many a 100% extractions.
Awe Ibee's methods are designed to push that 100% envelope.
Today that isn't as easy as it once was.
On average, when the Slanted Egull was effective at extracting White 60's w/antihists, 90-95% pfed was the max. Ibee could still attribute 5% loss to the acetone washes needed to remove the blue from the xtals in the end.
When signposts(visuals) light the way to success, it's hard to go wrong.
There is no doubt that those that got it, basked in that britewhitelite while it lasted.
As for end result weight, if a bee was able to walk away boasting of 85% meth yield from starting pfed w/w he was excelling at accellerated speeds accomplishment-wise.
Ibee beeing a tester and amateur extraction specialist forced nano experimentation that demanded maximization of yields or he'd have no headstash to test  
The LWR put many in that envelope provided their feedstock wasn't gaaked to the nines
Still does!
Bees can start looking around now at some of the boasting the opposition is doing in regards to the bite they've taken out of the availability of meth on the streets.
They've crippled the GupChucker and they've cut in half the production of HI/RP cooks.
The only way a bee will be able to succeed using OTC pills is by the COMPLETE removal of the denaturants/adulterants/inactives employed to hinder the most common cooking methods and extraction techniques.
Or simply abandon pills and invest their time, $, and energy in another synth.
It's only a curveball away learning-wise!

kris_1108: This has been known by Ibee and the Kidz since before StumbleBee and FumbleBee discovered the Egull Method.
They found an article detailing Supercritical Fluid Extraction using Co2 and spiked sand that hinted at a competition taking place between the gaaks and the pfed.

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/pdf/pseudo-co2xtract.pdf

That article became the backbone surrounding The Egulls invention as an extraction technique.
Gaaks that are soluble in alcohol or h2o will compete for space in solution over time.
This is why Ibee always indicated a settling time, usually until clear, whichback then couldbe as little as 20min but ideally 1hour.
Today, with the lighter weight gaaks and gel suspension agents, that clearing might not take place until 3hours or longer. That's good for them and they invented them for that purpose. To lock up the goodz letting the predominant denaturing gaaks pass into solution.

If settling time wasn't an issue, Ibee would have just said to let sit overnight or 24hr in alky.

Shane_Warne: There is no doubt that the opposition and LE will try to color things in favor of securing a longer sentence, and I applaud the legal defence teams that aim to expose the truth and fact in favor of the defendant.
The truth is that most methcooks are sloppy and or impatient or lack the ability to extract past 70%.
You'll see a miniscule handfull of cooks here compared to the actual numbers out there in the world. Not all are priviledged to the information provided on this site. Not all avail themselves to the best extraction methods and workarounds known to man. Unless they themselves are scientists and chemists and skilled in the arts.
Just look at the references provided at the bottom of that pdf document.

The extractosquad bees here pale in comparison to the pHarmer's expertise and knowledge of chemistry, yet The Hive still provides the most reliable methods known to a novice cook that sometimes equals and at times surpasses their best teams of extractors in results.
Do you honestly think that formulation changes every 3-6months would be needed if us mere amateurs weren't giving them a run for their money
Those bees that are getting it....90-100%...my hat comes off.
All I can say is DON'T GET CAUGHT!
Ole Ware might not bee the brightest bulb in the WareHouse but, the day Ibee's yields fall below 70% consistantly, y'all will be the first to know.
Just look for the unhappiest camper in the colony!

[geezmeister]

The site is a resource for attorneys who do criminal defense work in the United States Federal Courts, and in particular for the attorneys who are employed as Federal Public Defenders. Your tax dollars at work, for once against the WOD.

I defended a meth manufacturing case in federal court soon after the sentencing guidelines were first adopted. Every case raised sentencing guideline questions on appeal at that time, and there was simply no case law interpreting or deciding questions about application of the guidelines. I recall the government bringing a forensic chemist to the sentencing hearing who testified that the thirteen pounds of pseudoephedrine HCl my man intended to convert to methamphetamine would convert, gram per gram, to methamphetamine, and that any cook should be able to make thirteen pounds of meth from that much pseudoephedrine, even with rudimentary lab skills. (He was yet another typically "unbiased and completely truthful" government forensic expert witness, hired to tell the story the government wanted the judge to hear, irrespective of the truth of the matter.) 

I called as a witness a professor from a college in the area, who explained why 92% was the maximum possible yield, and testifed that no one could obtain a yield that good. He testified the guy I defended would get a much lower yield. I don't recall the figure he gave, but I think it was in the fifty percent range. The judge asked my professor what he based his estimate on. The professor answered simply, "Personal experience." There was a long pause before the judge quit looking at the witness and asked if the lawyers had any more questions.

The judge accepted the government witness's testimony, found my client conspired to make thirteen pounds of meth, and sentenced accordingly. The additional seven and a half pounds did not affect the sentence, as seven and half pounds and thirteen pounds both fell in the same offense level under the guidelines at the time. 

Private attorneys are appointed by the federal courts to defend codefendants of defendants represented by the Federal Public Defender, since the FPD office has a legal conflict of interest representing more than one defendant in a case. Attorneys who accepted such appointments are provided materials by the FPD office to help in the defense of federal defendants. The website mentioned above is a continuation of that type of assistance to the defense bar.

[ChemoSabe]

The only time swims buddy ever got close to a 100% extraction yeild was from some imported ungakked pills over 3 years ago. One good methanol soak of the ground pills did the trick.

I think that somewhere at Worlocks pages

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/worlock/toc.html

he states that the absolute theoretical top yeild from a reduction to meth is something like 92% by molecular weight. But that's a nearly mythical figure in the non theoretical world of clandestine chemistry.

[Chimitant]

Look at the first and second reference of that article....Uncle fester´s book and a post by VideoEditor (with a link to a non-existing Rhodium site). They do their homework  

[ChemoSabe]

I guess you know your work in this field is really worth something if the Forensic Scientists are using it for legal reference.

Where is VideoEditor?

[kris_1108]

Where is VideoEditor?

It's been a while since he posted. (11-29-03)
Maybe he's working on an extraction to dodge Eudragit  

[kris_1108]

Geez, you said that your client was charged with plannig to make 13pounds of meth, and that the charge for the more realistic 7.5 pound figure wouldn't have changed the sentence. Do you think that if there was a line between those two figures, that he would have been charged for the lesser amount? Does it work that way?

[CheshireHouse]

SWIM used to extract pseudo pills by soaking in methanol, and she found that shorter soak time definitely gave better yields with some pills.  Her observation at the time was that the MeOH leeched the pseudo from the pills fairly quickly, but that if they were left to soak too long the pills would start to break down more completely, and then there'd be so much other crap dissolved as well that yields would plummet.  Similarly, with pills of that type, she found that crushing or grinding up the pills would result in lower yields and/or more hassle purifying the extracted pseudo as compared to just soaking them whole in the methanol.

//edit:  didn't notice till now that you said the pills were crushed first, which sort of weakens that theory.  Still, the basic idea might hold:  if the pseudo dissolves most readily, then there might well come a point when soaking for longer allows other impurities to dissolve in greater quantities.  It's certainly not unlikely that the yield might drop if the extract is less pure (even if both extracts contain the same amount of pseudo), especially if the person attempting the extraction isn't hep to all of the purification techniques that might be employed.

[geezmeister]

I seem to recall at the time that the offense levels stepped up from below one Kg meth, and the next level was from 1 to 10 kg of meth, and the next was 10 to 100 kg of meth. My client would be in the same offense level at 1o00% yield as he would at 50% yield. Had it mattered, the judge would have sided with the government expert and given him the next level. Very anti-drug judge.

when I started doing pill extraction I extracted pseudo from very clean pills with MeOH. I found that the cleanest results were obtained by limited the volume of alcohol, and soaking no more than twenty minutes, then ten, then five on a final pull. I used equal volumes of MeOH. I found that soaking longer times only pulled cellulose that became soluble if the pill mass were soaked for longer times. If you soaked the same pills in MeOH for long periods, you would pull a waxy substance that was a mess to get separated again.

I had a friend who would grind up twelve bottles of these these pills, place them in a coffee filter in a funnel, and pour a single bottle of MeOH alcohol from the auto parts store over them. He'd toss the filter and pill mass, which I would gladly dispose of for him, after mining it for the pseudo he left behind. He evaporated the alcohol and had only pseudo. He made very clean methamphetamine. I had to be careful about the soak times, because the pill mass would have moist with MeOH a long time when I got it and the MeOH would dissolve a lot of stuff other than the remaining pseudo.