The Vespiary

The Hive => Methods Discourse => Topic started by: TheBlindGenius on March 21, 2002, 02:55:00 PM

Title: Using Al2O3 instead of Al Foil
Post by: TheBlindGenius on March 21, 2002, 02:55:00 PM
SWIM wants to do a reductive amination of MDP2P to MDMA with Al/Hg and nitromethane ala Methyl Man.  Now, SWIM has access to some chemicals. Is there anything she could use instead of aluminum foil that would be better. SWIM heard that Al turnings can be used, somewhere else SWIM heard that's wrong, and that Al2O3 is supposed to be used.
Title: I'm no genius, but I don't think so
Post by: Moriarty on March 21, 2002, 03:47:00 PM
Part of the point is to reduce the ketone and imine once it's produced.  Okay, so you have Al2O3, this means that a rather vigorous reaction is going to occur, as Al2O3 converted to 2Al(OH)3 and that's one of the driving forces of the reaction as I understand it.  Probably too fast.  Just a thought, but how would you control that reflux?  I guess A WHOLE LOT LESS Hg salt.  What's wrong with Al foil?

BTW, I may be completely full of shit, but

Post 269032 (https://www.thevespiary.org/talk/index.php?topic=7427.msg26903200#msg26903200)

(Osmium: "Re: Hg Amalgamation rates", Chemistry Discourse) is a great explanation of the reaction creating the reduction.
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Title: Al2O3
Post by: PolytheneSam on March 21, 2002, 05:02:00 PM
Also, Al2O3 + 3H2O --> 2Al(OH)3 is not reduction.
http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
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Title: Amalgamations/reductions
Post by: Moriarty on March 21, 2002, 05:09:00 PM
Al2O3 + 3H2O ----------> 2Al(OH)3

Al + 3H2O ----------> Al(OH)3 + H2 + H+ + e

This is how I've always envisioned what was going on.  There is some Al2O3 that is destroyed and from there on out it's a reaction with Al and H2O that create H+ for the reduction.  Would you say that sounds right, Max?
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Title: blah, blah, blah
Post by: PoohBearium on March 21, 2002, 05:23:00 PM

When you reduce something, something else is oxidized.



Hence the term "redox."

PB

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Tilt your head back - let's finish the cup!
Title: hyperbolic lymbroidia
Post by: PolytheneSam on March 21, 2002, 05:24:00 PM
>Just looking for clarification.

Read what you wrote in your first post in this thread.
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Title: Oh
Post by: Moriarty on March 21, 2002, 05:26:00 PM
I guess I wrote that kinda fast.  Don't I feel foolish.  Thanks Sam.
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Title: edit
Post by: PolytheneSam on March 21, 2002, 05:54:00 PM
I see you edited your posts, too.
http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html
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Title: Edited Posts
Post by: Moriarty on March 22, 2002, 04:32:00 PM
Of course Sam.  I'm not for spreading bad info and will remove shitty posts as a matter of principle.  Just like you correct 'em as a matter of principle.  I know the difference between an oxidation and a reduction and now so does everybody else.  Goal accomplished.  You agree?
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Title: So, In a Nutshell......
Post by: TheBlindGenius on April 01, 2002, 11:46:00 PM
Like a history teacher of SWIM's would say, "in a nutshell" what does this mean? Can I use Al turnings. The reason I'd rather use Al turnings is because I don't have to worry about cutting the aluminum foil the right size or getting the right kind or getting reported for buying a case. Also, wouldn't the reaction run faster?
Title: The problem is, the reaction may run TOO fast ...
Post by: MescalToad on April 02, 2002, 02:21:00 AM
The problem is, the reaction may run TOO fast (violently).
Title: A side note about thin al foil
Post by: Vibrating_Lights on April 02, 2002, 01:10:00 PM
An Al/HG with nitro was run in modified 5 gallon paint bucket. 30gms of rynolds heavy duty with 30gms regular renoyalds amalgamated with Hg2I2 in 500ml MeOH. when amalgamation complete AL/MeOH is added with another 650 ml MeOH to the Rxn Vessel . 45 gms of nitro with 55 gms ketone and 50mlMeoH was added over 30 mins.  The rxn was at full blast right before the addition of the ketone/nitro and had returned to room temp by 2.5 hrs. a small ammount of Meoh escaped the condensor right after the last addition of ketone.  There is alot of head room in a bucket with a rxn this size. do not recomend trying thinner alumnium with smaller vessels but with a bucket it works great. you can go from ketone to salt in just about 4hrs.
VL_