Potency Increase in Psilocybe Cubensis

[mottaman420]

I recently came to the understanding that you could substantially increase the psilocybin & psilocin content in mushrooms by adding 25 millimoles of tryptamine hydrochloride to ten grams of the mushroom substrate. I know how to decarboxylate tryptophan into tryptamine but i do not know how to make it into tryptamine hydrochloride. I assume that u would have to mix it with hydrochloric acid but i do not know the stoichiometric proportions needed nor the techniques used for purification. I was wandering if anybody could enlighten me. Also i do not know how much trypatamine to expect from a particular weight of tryptophan, as well as how much tryptamine hydrochloride to expect from from the reaction that i don't know
_.-==''SupaTokaBuDsMoka''==-._
'''''GonnaGetHighTillIDie'''''

[urushibara]

I've heard of feeding DET and DIPT to mushrooms to change their product, but not anything about increasing potency. If increasing the amount of psilo(cyb)in is your goal, and allegedly tryptamine HCl will do it, then why not just use tryptophan? the mushroom has plenty of decarboxylase to save your effort, and will hydroxylate and phosphoryloxylate to your final product. Could you give us a link to where you got the idea from? If it's true, then we've got another reason to want tryptophan around.

Though I am slightly doubtful, because my experience with psilocybin has shown that it's pretty consistent by dry weight, and by dry weight most mushrooms are about the same weight (thus 3 mushrooms gives you roughly the same dose no matter which three mushrooms - unless they're pinheads still), assuming all the mushrooms measured are at the same level of maturity: ie with homegrown they're just popping open their veil. There is a little variation, but I am fairly sure their genetics determine potency on a dry mass kind of basis. Mushrooms mostly vary in size due to moisture variations and maturity levels.

I once picked a goldtop (they're basically like the amazonian ones) that was like 6 inches in diameter fully opened, but it was so mooshy, If I had managed to dry it out I bet it would have weighed not much different to a little tight dry and dark coloured one.

Maybe if you put tryptophan and methionine in the substrate it might increase potency - certainly in human biochemistry methionine and tryptophan increase the production of methylated tryptamines in the brain (a suggested mix is no mao dangerous foods for a day, maoi, methionine and tryptophan on an empty stomach and it will prompt a production of methylated tryptamines in the brain, which will stick around longer with the maoi added) There might be an amino which increases phosphorylation, and if you put that with methionine and tryptophan it might just increase production. This is probably crazy, but perhaps some long-term maoi's would help too, because perhaps the mushroom has mao to regulate the concentration of the tryptamines? Nah that's nuts, likely excess tryptamines will make the fungi sick. Worth a try though?
C₁₂H₁₆N₂

[311311311]

it is on Rhodium' page, and in TFSE use L-tryptophan as a subject and it should be one of the first few.  Yes, it is supposed to work.  BTW, what does adding det or dipt (to the substrate, mycelium, or mushroom?) change the product to?

[urushibara]

You gonna have to give addresses or post references for that, couldn't find on rhodium's page or in erowid or via google. I finally found some refs to it on the shroomery, though even there it's not referenced, just hearsay. Some hard empirical evidence is needed here.

Puting the alkyl substituted amines in the substrate causes a little of the alkyl substuted amine to end up on the 4-phosphorylated and 4-hydroxylated tryptamines. I think it was McKenna who said that. (refs please )

There's not enough research done on the mechanisms involved, and what was done was stopped many years ago thanks to the inquisition - there's almost nothing else than shrooms that have phosphoryloxylation done to tryptamines. As far as I know the actual mechanism of biosynthesis is still unknown.

As I said before, it is possible that excess psilo(cyb)in might hurt the mushroom's growth, and if not the only way to make it produce more would be to know exactly which amino acids and proteins are needed by it for that particular part of its metabolism. Otherwise, it might just make more shrooms grow, not stronger.
C₁₂H₁₆N₂

[mottaman420]

Sorry urushibara but i'm pretty sure this is an effective method. For Refs. look up (Gartz 1989)(Stamets 1996). Also included in "LSD-25 & Tryptamine Synthesis", I also believe it is mentioned at the Psilocybe Fanaticus Homepage but am not sure. According to these professionals it increases the potency from the average (0.01%-0.2%) to 3.3%. This however seems to be a signifigant increase and i have doubts as to it being that effective. Have found no research about using tryptophan. But in Otto Snow's tryptamine book he leads you to believe that you first aquire tryptophan and then convert it to tryptamine and then tryptamine HCL before putting it in the substrate which therefore leads me to believe that tryptophan by itself would not work but you should try it and tell me how it goes. This addition acts like a fertalizer in a sense allowing the mushrooms to convert more matter into psilocin. This procedure seems to reduce the psilocybin content a little but greatly increases the Psilocin content.  Oh i just found a page with data and sources at

http://www.fanaticus.com/gartz.htm

. Just read the article it explains it better than i can. But anyways i just need to know how to convert tryptamine into tryptamine hydrochloride. I found a site that sells it but it is much much much cheaper to make it yourself. Thanx Laterz
_.-==''SupaTokaBuDsMoka''==-._
'''''GonnaGetHighTillIDie'''''

[hest]

It works, but you wont get 3.3% psilocin. The drawback is that the shroom only produce psilocin, no psilocybin, so you have to use the fresh.

[mottaman420]

You have to use the fresh what??
_.-==''SupaTokaBuDsMoka''==-._
'''''GonnaGetHighTillIDie'''''

[311311311]

He's talking about the fact that Psilocin degrades quickly when drying begins, while psilocybin is pretty stable.  Fresh is best, anyways.

--Where did you hear(read) that a "tryptamine booster" will make it cut out the production of psilocybin?

[mottaman420]

Heard about it at

http://www.fanaticus.com/gartz.htm

_.-==''SupaTokaBuDsMoka''==-._
'''''GonnaGetHighTillIDie'''''

[311311311]

Alright, correct me if i'm wrong (I know you love posts that start like this;) but doesn't Psilocybin get broken down into Psilocin inside the body?  I may have it backwards, but if not then "without tryptamine"=Maximun total tryptamine content of .76%.  "With tryptamine"= Minimum of 2.1% total content.  My guess is that there is a happy medium somewhere that would increase the total tryptamine content and produce a much more balanced ratio of the two compounds.

[mottaman420]

Assuming that in the given recipes for potentcy increases all of the tryptamine HCL was used and that the amount of tryptamine used affected the potency in a linear relationship you could achieve an 1:1 ratio of psilocin to psilocybin be usin a little less than one tenth of the tryptamine HCL suggested in the recipe. Keep in mind however that by doing this your total amount of hallucinogenic compounds (ie amt psilocin + amt psilocybin) would aproximatley 8% less (by weight--BW) of what they would be without any tryptamine, and would be aproximatley 552% less (BW) if you had added the suggested amount of tryptamine. So if your looking for an even ratio of cin to bin than be prepared to loose some potentcy (assuming psilocybin and psilocin are of equal potentcy) from both the normal way and the tryptamine addition way. If all you care about is the overall potentcy than by all means use the recipe for potentcy increase.
Also seeing as how the increase in psilocin and decrease in psilocibin makes the trip seem more synthetic it would be a good experiment if someone would try making subtrates with different ratios of tryptamine to substrate (obviously lower amounts of tryptamine in the recipe) to find which one had the most "natural" feel while still maintaining an increase in potentcy.
_.-==''SupaTokaBuDsMoka''==-._
'''''''GonnaGetHighTillIDie'''''''

[paranoid]

Yeah, the phosphate ester(?) group becomes hacked off through enzymic action rather quickly and the psilocin get's you going.  To increase pcilocybin levels you'd also have to enhance which ever process is responsible for the conversion in the first place... that's likely the limiting factor for psilocin -> pcilocybin conversion.  I'm clueless as to the exact procress, I don't have any refs available to me and I can't seem to find any good ones online?  Any suggestions?

[mottaman420]

All i want to know is the proper stoichiometric ratios for mixing tryptamine with HCL to form tryptamine hydrochloride.
_.-==''SupaTokaBuDsMoka''==-._
'''''''GonnaGetHighTillIDie'''''''

[Lilienthal]

1 : 1  


(or simply dissolve tryptamine in the minimum amount of diluted hydrochloric acid)

[mottaman420]

Thanx. Now i'm gonna make SupaShrooms
_.-==''SupaTokaBuDsMoka''==-._
'''''''GonnaGetHighTillIDie'''''''

[KiZaDm]

Psilocybin gets converted to Psilocin...you are correct sir!

Referrin to: any 3 mushrooms gives you roughly the same dose as any 3 mushrooms.

This is inaccurate at best(so 3 168gram P.cubensis Amazonian Strain shroomz are the same dose as 3 of those little P.liniformans? Not on your life)and a potentially nightmarish experience that SHOULD bee avoided at worst.

Speakin of strains....Has anybeeZ tried the P.cubensis/P.azurescens hybred? It has the potency of a dark bluing P.azurescens with the fruiting range of BOTH!...Thats right, it fruits in 40-90 deg. F!!!!!
What more can you ask for?


LYFizBUTaDREAM...DewUdreamOfSHROOMZ? ifSOjoinUS...www.imgn.bigstep.com

[paranoid]

I'd like to see shrooms fruiting at 40°F... ain't gonna happen.

[KiZaDm]

If you PM me an address SWIM will send ya the proof(as long as you dont live in Ca.)Personally I dont live in a place where it gets 40 deg. so I dont have that particular concern. Im actually quoting the cultivators who created this hybred and they are well known and respected and have no reason to lie. SWIM might even throw in a P.Tamp culture just cause he love to share..

In the event that your too "paranoid" to take me up on my offer I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree

 
LYFizBUTaDREAM...

[paranoid]

Heheh, I'd love to but it's probably better for both of us if no personal info passed each others ways... can't be too careful these days.

I suppose it's possible, I live in a fairly cold climate (well, from october to march anyways) and summer weather lasts only from june to early/mid september here.  Now I've seen plenty of mushrooms fruiting in temps under 10°C, but this is probably not common for tropical species.  Hell, if it's the truth I'll go around inocculating every damn compost heap I see around here!!   Imagine having them grow wild... too bad I don't live in British Columbia.  Some species grow quite prolifically in natural environments there.

[Zen]

Typical Ps.C. cultures grown by various organic substrates achieve .4 - .6 alkaloid yields. Typical nutrient enhanced substrates achieve slightly higher yields of alkaloids. Liquid cultures can effectively achieve 1 - 1.1 alkaloid yields by making essential nutrients and carbohydrates easily available.

    This is the general potency of this strain; attempts to further improve nutrient uptake will most likely only result in a higher biomass yield. In the instance of the introduction of tryptamine to yield 3% psilocin alkaloid, I view it as a novel biosynthesis mechanism, operating externally of the natural model of the organism.

Further info, refs, ect can be found in the thread: Enhanced Psilocybin Production

Someone mentioned trying to isolate the 4-HO hydroxylate enzyme from the biomass, now wouldn't that be fun?

-Zen