Author Topic: Safrole boils @ 68 C ?? HELP!!  (Read 5395 times)

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NeoSynthesis

  • Guest
Safrole boils @ 68 C ?? HELP!!
« on: September 12, 2003, 10:24:00 PM »
Okay.. Now this is totally baffling?!

Last week SWIM bought a liter of Sassy oil & distilled aprox. 100ml @ 1 ATM. A clear, colorless, odoriferous liquid came over at PRECISELY 232 C. No forerun, nada.. Just the 1 fraction. At the time, SWIM used the following rig:

- 250ml RBF for both Still & Distillate
- 3-way Adapter, thermometer adapter
- 400mm Liebig condenser (tap water cooled)
- Peanut oil bath, Hotplate/stirrer combo

SWIM became fairly convinced that his sassy was good stuff. SWIM went out & bought a heavy-duty oil-type vacuum pump. The pump is said to pull over 29" of vacuum. SWIM poured his distillate from the ATM distillation back into the Still, containing the residual sassy oil. SWIM then hooked up his rig, only this time adding a Vigreaux column (insulated to hell with 5-8 layers of tin foil & heavy-duty foam pipe insulator on top of it), and the vacuum pump (hooked to a 105-deg vacuum adapter).

SWIM poured the sassy from last week into the Still flask & fired up the hotplate to full blast. Stirring was set to 8. Within about 10 minutes the bath temp reached around 120 C and the rxn flask thermometer was showing around 68C. Distillate started POURING over at a rate of roughly 10 drops p/sec. In the next 10 to 15 minutes, the temperature (rxn) continued to climb about 3 or 4 degrees, leveling off at 72 C.
 
SWIM let things sit for another 10-15 minutes until the flow rate slowed to practically nothing. SWIM then observed that even though the bath temp continued to rise (roughly 200 C by now) the rxn temp started to drop drastically.. down to around 40 C (just a bit over ambient temp). SWIM also observed that about 80-95% of what was in the rxn flask was gone! The only stuff that remained was a VERY very dark (almost black) rust-colored substance. (looked much like soya sauce).

SWIM has read many MANY posts on Sassy distillation. He expected it to come over @ 140-160 C. WTF happend?


mindlib

  • Guest
oil pump + condensation trap
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2003, 11:01:00 PM »
Hi, if you are using a oil pump like in this case, I think, it´s better to use between the tubing of the receiving flask and the pump a condensation trap. I´m not sure about the terminology and what type of it you shoud use in case of a oil pump, but in the case of a diaphragm-pump it´s necessary to use a Woulfsche bottle(or other) for it.

Advantages: less stuff will be away = more Safrole
longer use of your oil in the oil-pump

I personally would cool my receiving flask(and..) proper and ALSO cool the woulffsche bottle, if I had not the possibility to ask the hive, before I would do it.....(LaBTop..)
Please other bees, feel free to critisize me, if I see something wrong.....

Oh, I forgot, i have no answer to your question, the oil pump is really so weak?(in vacuum amounts)

Problem solved, if it ´s pull over "29 inch" it´s like "3 mmHg" and your boiling point is fully o.k.

The black residue is fully cooked (200°C) safrole and impurities in your destilling flask.

The different boiling points of Safrole 140-160 are, if I´m not wrong, the boiling points, if you are using different types of a water aspirator.

BTW, a stronger vacuum=lower boiling points= also nearer bp of different substances in the substance to distill=maybe problems to seperate proper different substances in different needs to distill in different cases of precursor needs?

NeoSynthesis

  • Guest
mindlib.... great info, will keep in mind!
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2003, 11:43:00 PM »
While waiting on replies SWIM decided to try distilling ordinary tap water & plotting the line on Rhodium's nomograph to see what he gets. Sure enough, water came over at ~ 29 C, which seems to correspond to a pressure of 50 Torr/mmHg in the glassware (if i understood correctly, which might very much not be the case!).

Reffering once again to the nomograph, this time using the derived vacuum pressure in the system, SWIM got 50 Torr ---> 232 C BP (1 ATM) should = ~ 130 C BP Safrole @ 50 Torr. Again, I'm not 100% sure about this graph since even Rhodium said it was just an approximation (and later in Aug 2003 posted something saying that water wasn't a good indicator altogether.

That having been said, the distillate appears to display all the characteristics of Safrole. It is clear, fragrant, and highly refractive of light. I think the bucks stops here (reffering to the extent of my understanding).

Insights to SWIM's dilema both Valued & Appreciated!

Bzzzz...


NeoSynthesis

  • Guest
Consistency...
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2003, 11:57:00 PM »
After reviewing a reply to my post from another bee (not sure why it doesn't appear in the post), who spoke of 3 possibilities that could've affected SWIM's "experiment" (broken thermometer, bad sassy, contaminated sassy), SWIM decided to try the distillation again this time using "new" Sassy (albeit from the same batch) to see what would happen.

Mind you.. this is the VERY SAME sassy that came over at EXACTLY 232 C @ 1 ATM and also, how much friggin "contaminant" could there be already??? I mean the clear, odoriferous, refractive liquid made up about 85-90% of what was in the rxn flask to begin with!

Additionally, if the distillate in this experiment was indeed H2O as some might suggest, it should've behaved the same way that it had in SWIM's water distillation experiment, (eg. coming over @ 29C and NOT 68-72 C). So in essence.. SWIM just wants to rule out a couple of possiblities:

1) SWIM's vacuum pump is a shitload more powerfull then the nomograph would suggest.

2) the Sassy did in fact become somehow contaminated by "atmospheric" contaminants or became otherwise "denatured" sponataneously... heh! long shot!

3) Someone pissed in SWIM's Sassy.

In order to eliminate these possibilities SWIM will repeat the entire distillation making the following changes:

1) SWIM will use a fresh 100ml of Sassy

2) SWIM will swap themometers (rxn flask & oil bath)

3) SWIM will use fresh flasks for the experiment


Insight... Suggestions.. PRAYERS... All very much valued & appreciated!

Peace out beez...


methyl_ethyl

  • Guest
nothing
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2003, 01:04:00 AM »
I do not think anything is wrong, I just think you have a good pump.  I have used a high vacuum pump off of a lyophilizer and had ketone come over at 78C.  Back in my anal retentive days I was using a Hg thermometer and a digital thermocouple plugged into a temperature controller, just to be sure.
 
     So if you purchased a very good pump and have very good equipment and technique, there is nothing for you to be baffled about.  It might help if you post the name  and model of the pump you have, don't worry about the whole "NO Sources" deal as we all know who the popular manufacturers of pumps are.  Just don't  tell us you got it from Jimmy's used chem equipment, you know the rules.......

     Of course if your pump only pulls 10 torr then we may have a problem.......   8)


NeoSynthesis

  • Guest
I'm still in my anal days..
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2003, 01:21:00 AM »
ethyl, you pretty much sum'd up my personal perspective on the matter, but as I've been told, the key to any result that could be remotely viewed as "substantive" lies in it's reproducibility. As such, SWIM's gonna give it another shot with the 2nd load of sassy. If the same thing happens again (which SWIM foresees), then basically that's that!

The pump SWIM's using is a Robinair 15600 6CFM Vacuum Pump. It hums like a baby, isn't too loud, and seems pretty reliable. I got it from DO NOT POST SOURCES! /Rhodium

Thanks for the insight! - btw.. I've read posts up and friggin down on "Safrole Shelf Life" but have yet to come across something concrete on the matter. Seeing as SWIM might just be stuck with half a liter of safrole, I'm wondering if you could shed some light on how long the stuff would be good for? how to store it? (eg. ambient/fridge?) etc.

Thanks again ethyl!

Bzzzz...


methyl_ethyl

  • Guest
Torr, god of vacuum......
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2003, 03:28:00 AM »
Looks like your pump can pull down .02 torr without the gas ballast open, I do not have a nomograph in front of me or anything, but I would assume that you may be able to get safrole at 68-70C with that kind of a vacuum (guesstimate).  I am very surprised at the price of that pump, if it pulls a stable vacuum with out too much variability, I would be quite impressed.  Maybe you should delete the name and model and where you got it, because a search of it came up with quite probably where you purchased it......  I will leave that up to the mods however.......

     As far as shelf life is concerned, I am not possitive about safrole, however the commercially available iso-safrole I have used (95%  mixture of CIS and Trans) has no expiration date on the bottle.  I am not aware of any stabilizers or anything, however I will check the MSDS on Sunday.  I have been using this stuff for years, without any decrease in yields.  I am just now getting into the fun of safrole from root bark.  I got a bunch dug up and frozen, I have some experimental shit on my mind, time to fire up the soxhlet, and the lyophilizer......  ::)  of course I am not a chem bee, and everything I dream up of is purely imaginative, and not based on any type of scientific research.  This shit is my hobby, I learn from experience......  So please do not take anything I say as fact, until it can be proven by a real chem bee.......

Edit  I guess I should of mentioned my storage conditions for the Iso-safrole,  :P .

  Tightly capped, dark, glass bottles, stored out of sunlight, at room temperature......

good luck,

m_e


NeoSynthesis

  • Guest
Quite the pump...
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2003, 05:00:00 AM »
SWIM just advised me that he's in the middle of that "second run" (reproduceability) of sassy distillation. Interesting observations...

When SWIM first got the pump he was so eager to use it that he basically just rigged up the hose sort of "makeshift" and got the results submitted in the first post. This time around he went about it in a far more detailed manner. He went out & bought fittings to fit the hose on the end that plugs into the pump. He coupled hose clamps (albeit delicately) on the vacuum adapter. Low and behold! A bit of forerun came over @ around 50-52 C (swirlies observed in the recieving flask). Vac was disconnected & flask was changed. Rxn temp holding steady @ 57 C & Safrole coming over @ a rate of 2-3 drops p/sec. (mind you i'm leaving out all the fiddling until the experiment is complete & SWIM hands me the final "lab report" - I will post detailed steps & results).

On the issue of sources.. lol I guess Rhodium sort of beat you to it! I didn't realize that the source I posted was considered specific. Thought of it much like "Kmart". Guess I was wrong, I'll know for the future.

Thanks for your insights & intuition - a real source of confidence (lol.. hope that's not posting "sources" loL!)

Cheers!


methyl_ethyl

  • Guest
It's all right
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2003, 05:41:00 AM »
Just don't  tell us you got it from...   Jimmy's used chem equipment, you know the rules.......

     Yeah I was just trying to find out the name of the manufacturer and model, to see if I could find what kind of vacuum ratings the manufacturers offered,  tried to tell you not to mention where you got it from, (in a round about way).  No worries...  Looks like you got a good pump for the price.  The pumps I used to use ran about 1500.00 USD used,  pulling about 2X10-3 torr.  What you have sounds fine, as long as it is consistant, and does not flail all over the place, (vacuum wise).

     Shit.......   I almost forgot....... at that price I would worry about the pump not being very corrosion resistant, if you are stripping off lots of formic, or the like, your pump will probably not last very long.  I am not very familiar with what mindlib was talking about, but I would look into some kind of solvent trap, or way to keep volatiles, out of that pump.  Change your oil as often as possible, because at that price, I fear it will not last long.........   I used a diaphragm pump for the first time (once) to strip off some formic acid, (not a good idea) if I was smart enough to use some kind of solvent recovery trap, maybe I could still use the fucker to this day.  >:( .  I am not sure how a diaphragm pump works exactly,  but it looked like it had some "cooling" fins on the back side of it, the paint "bubbled" right off of the little cutie.  What a waste, at least It was a gift, I probably would have taken better care of it to start with if I personally purchased it, still no excuse......  I am sure there is a way to salvage it, I just need to find time......

     Good luck on your experimentation........
     And take care of your pump......

m_e


methyl_ethyl

  • Guest
room temperature
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2003, 06:22:00 AM »
Sure enough, water came over at ~ 29 C, which seems to correspond to a pressure of 50 Torr/mmHg in the glassware (if i understood correctly, which might very much not be the case!).

     Keep in mind that water will boil at room temperature   under a good vacuum with no heat applied.  Your pump very well could have made H20 come over at 15C, however the temperature of the room was much higher than that.  Sorry I did not notice this before, see what I mean, this is why your calculations may have been off.  If you want to test the BP of a liquid under vacuum, it must have a boiling point no where near room temperature, under the  vacuum conditions that are applied to it.......  I know that probably makes no sense, however, what I am trying to say is, if you try to find the bp of a liquid that boils at room temp under your specified vacuum, you would have to accurately lower the ambient temperature and record the boiling point.   Or just use a higher boiling point substance to validate your vacuum.  I feel as if I am making no sense.  I must stop this bantering.........  Last thought, take a high boiling point substance ie something that boils ~250C @ 1 atmosphere, then take the boiling point of that substance under your vacuum.  As Rhodi says, it may not be that accurate, however you should get a good idea. 

     I think you are on the right track,

take care babe,

m_e


NeoSynthesis

  • Guest
Sassy loves Neo :))
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2003, 10:09:00 AM »
Heh... Ethyl would you believe that this dawned upon SWIM only after the distillation of water - When SWIM realized (about an hour later) that there was no change in the temp on the thermometer (which by now was laying in the sink!). Fascinating this chemistry thing really is.. And another thing... All you said makes perfect sense :) You're far too humble! :)

Now for SWIM's much-anticipated "detailed lab report" (for school of course)

Setup:

- (2) 250ml RBF (rxn flask & distillate reciever)
- Vigreux Column (insulated with multiple layers of aluminum foil & covered with foam pipe insulator from the hardware store. The pipe insulator was bought in the correct size to fit the diameter of the vigreux col. & an extra 1/4" to fit the tin foil that it was gonna be wrapped in. On the subject of foam pipe insulator, there are a few types. The best one is the one that has adhesive on both sides of the slit down the middle. Just cut a piece of it down to the length of your column, wrap it around, then peel off the adhesive & boom! you're all set - A nice clean job and absolutely flawless insulation)
- 3-way adapter & thermometer adapter
- (2) thermometers (1 to measure rxn temp & 1 for oil bath temp)
- 400mm Liebig condender (cooled by tap water)
- 105 deg. vacuum adapter.
- stainless steel "salad bowl" (heavy duty - for the oil bath, and YES IT WORKED!)
- Corning hotplate/stirrer combo
- (1) 1 5/8 x 3/4" magnetic teflon stirrbar (egg shaped)
- keck clamps on either side of condenser
- (3) stands, (4) 3-prong clamps in total to hold the glassware
- Robinair 15600 vacuum pump, thick-walled rubber hose with a couple of hose clamps (home depot)

** Glass was cleaned with acetone, and all ground glass joints (24/40) were greased prior to use.


Now here's what happend:

SWIM started by measuring out roughly 100ml of Sassy in a graduated cylinder. SWIM weighed the empty cylinder before pouring the Sassy into it, so that he would know exactly how much Sassy (mass) was in the reaction (so that SWIM would later know roughly how much safrole was in his Sassafras essential oil %).

SWIM then poured the Sassy into the rxn flask, fired up his vacuum pump & set the hotplate/stirrer to low heat (#3), stirr (#8) expecting the Sassy to come over at around 66-68 C.

Oil bath temp started to rise slowly, but temp of the rxn remained at ambient levels (room temperature). SWIM started getting restless so he turned the heat up a notch, just to help get things going.

SWIM noticed that the few droplets of water that were in the distillate flask when he setup the glassware were now gone, which lead him to note that he should get a fucking water trap if he doesn't want to kill his brand new vacuum pump!

Bath temp was climbing nicely @ heat setting #4, roughly 1 degree C every 1-2 minutes. (ambient temp was 29 C). SWIM mistakenly decided that when bath temp would hit around 64 C, he would drop the heat back to #3 & start the water in the condenser - Truth is, doesn't make one fucking difference what the bath temp is cuz the bath temp (IMHO) has to be at least 25% hotter then the rxn temp SWIM was aiming for! SWIM cranks the heat up to full blast for a couple of minutes, just until bath temp hits around 80 C, intending to roll it back to heat setting #3 at that point.

It then occured to SWIM that that's also retarded! Why play things by ear? When the safrole is ready to evap it will fucking tell you by itself!!! Temperature in the reaction flask will begin to rise rapidly. THAT is SWIM's cue to drop the heat back to #3!!! revelations!!!

Few minutes later..... BINGO! bath temp @ 84 C, and rxn temp just started to rise. That's SWIM's cue to drop the heat setting to #2 (just to maintain bath temp at around 90-100 C) Distillate starts coming over at roughly 2-3 drops p/second, rxn temp @ 50 C. SWIM's guessing this stuff is forerun since there are "swirlies" in the flask (difference in refraction indexes of two substances I guess).

SWIM changes the recieving flask & continues to heat. Bath temp is @ around 90 C, rxn temp seems stable @ ~ 56 C. Distillate coming over at roughly 2-3 drops p/second and NO SWIRLIES!!! SWIM drops the heat setting to #2, hoping to simply maintain the bath temperature at the current level.

15 min coffee break.....

SWIM returns from his coffee crisp only to find that distillate has slowed to a trickle.. about 1 drop every 2 seconds or so. Rxn temp dropped down to around 55-54 C, and bath temp dropped to around 70 C. Woops.. I guess the #2 heat setting wasn't high enough to maintain 90-100 C in the oil bath.. Oh well... SWIM cranks up the heat to about #4 but that didn't do much so he went with #5. (didn't want to overshoot). At setting #5, bath temp appears to climb 1 deg. C every 30-45 seconds.

(SWIM thinks in the future he'll simply crank up the heat to full blast until bath temp hits the 70's, then reduce it to #5 to level out in the 90's, and then reduce it to #4 to maintain this optimal bath temp).

Whoopi! bath temp back into the 90's, distillate flow rate starts speeding up again. SWIM reduces heat to #4 to maintain this temp & goes for more food!

That's it... It worked! Ideal rxn temp seems to be 56 C. That's where the safrole comes over steadily @ 56 C!

Hurray for SWIM!!!!


Note: Even though all these settings are exclusive to SWIM¡¦s pump (and it¡¦s vacuum output). I¡¦m hopeful that my experience will help other bees understand what¡¦s going on with their rig ¡V Again, maybe this is all one big fuckup & I¡¦m making things worse? But the intentions are good ƒº

Peace out¡K


mindlib

  • Guest
"Always start magnetic stirring first,
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2003, 02:20:00 PM »
then apply vacuum, then slowly turn on the heat"
from

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/equipment/pictures/distillation_big.jpg



Äh, I´ve talked above about, to start in your rig the stirring FIRST.



I have no experience with distillations, but I would heat it up slow straight proportional.
(e.g. 1 or 2 °C in a minute or longer)
Please critisize me, if I see something wrong...

nitrous351

  • Guest
impatience
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2003, 05:05:00 PM »
... is something I see a lot of from newbees here at the hive. I know I have personally posted this at least 4 times, and I know it's mentioned in Zubrick's manual as well as other organic technique guides. Fractional distillation with vacuum should bee done SLOWLY!
THE SLOWER YOU DISTILL, THE BETTER THE SAFROLE WILL BEE!!!
When using a vacuum, the gap between boiling points of fractions narrows. If you heat too fast, you will almost certainly not separate the fractions completely.
You should have some forerun too, because there are some fractions in sassy that boil lower than safrole.
If you're too excited to distill slowly, let me suggest to distill quickly and then do at least 2 freezes.
I know you're excited about what you're doing, but remember: garbage in.... garbage out! clean stuff in... clean stuff out!
You want your product to bee as pure as possible, right? You want your yields to bee as high as possible, right? The only way to achieve these goals is to use clean reagents and practice good technique. good luck peace
Low and slow is the tempo!


NeoSynthesis

  • Guest
"Slowly" = Qualitative
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2003, 08:56:00 PM »
Question 1:

Considering the way SWIM did the distillation of Safrole in the 2nd run, would you say that this was “slow” enough?

I really think it would help if rather then simply saying “slow” you detail the “specific” characteristics of the experiment that you would be “allowing for” by reducing the pace of things. IMHO, it is important, when giving suggestions, to keep those suggestions in constant association with what is actually being done (or aimed for) at that specific point in the experiment – seems to me this would enhance the importance what is being said and allow us newbees to relate it to the specific task or event happening at that particular stage of the game (hope I haven’t totally confused anyone lol.. or myself for that matter)

Question 2:

In the first run, SWIM's Safrole came over at a much wider range of temperatures (67-72 C) then in the second run (56 steady, on the nose). I’m assuming that the lower BP in the second run was simply due to better vacuum configuration and setup. Also, the presence of forerun in the second distillation would suggest that BP’s of whatever more volatile substance(s) were present in the Sassafras oil were not overshot. Hence my question, does the second distillation appear to have been done correctly with respect to “doing things slow”?

Just a note on the first distillation run – the same batch of Sassafras oil used was also used prior to this during a 1 ATM (partial) distillation (last week). I’m guessing that the absence of forerun in this distillation (vacuum) was due to the fact that whatever forerun may have been present must’ve been “lost” in the 1 ATM (partial) distillation carried out prior to this since the substance that came over was entirely consistent (no swirlies whatsoever – as were clearly present in the forerun of the second distillation). Again, I hope I haven’t confused anyone.

Question 3:

Finally, having considered all these factors, would you recommend a 3rd distillation of the Safrole that was obtained? And if so, for which of the two batches of Safrole? or for both?


Thanks! Peace out…

calcium

  • Guest
'slowly'
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2003, 03:59:00 PM »
Given the number of issues you've had with a relatively simple fractional distillation, you may want to slowly read more and slowly gain a better understanding of the more complicated tasks ahead. Not flaming, just adding my $0.02.
     I found it very helpful to buy a bottle of star anise oil and double distil the anethole to an acceptable purity before attempting the same procedure with sassafras oil.

There's two cents worth of free advice.

nitrous351

  • Guest
Neo...
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2003, 08:29:00 PM »
Ok Neo, I'll explain slow to you. In your earlier posts, you told how you cranked up the heat on your hotplate, and how you intended to turn it down once it got hot. That is an example of bad technique.
The best way to do a safrole distillation is:
1. Turn on the stirring (fast stirring...about 750rpm)
2. Turn on the vacuum... when full vacuum is reached, wait 5-10 mins before starting the heat.
Now, using a vacuum can bee especially tricky. It sounds like you have a great pump, and I'm sure you get really good vacuum with it. The trick is to turn it on slowly. I'm not familiar with your particular model, but in (not)my case, (not)my vacuum doesn't have a control for the strength of the vacuum. So, (not)I had to improvise by adding a glass 3-way valve with a ground-glass stopcock. This allows (not)me to vary the strength of (not)my vacuum. It also allowed (not)me to hookup a digital vacuum gauge to the valve. The gauge makes it possible to monitor the EXACT level of vacuum in the system (please see Rhodium's page for setup and pictures... (not)I followed that same setup). By knowing the exact vacuum of the system, you can pretty well predict at what point your safrole will come over... otherwise, you're pretty much guessing. I highly suggest a digital vacuum gauge (if you don't already have one... thanks, Runne, for the advice!)
3. With stirrer stirring, and vacuum on, you're now ready to turn on the heat. It's also time to start thinking about condenser water. Are you using a recirculating pump with a bucket, or are you connected to a faucet? If your using a recirc. pump, turn it on now. If your using a faucet, you may want to wait a few minutes (depending on whether or not you are paying for the water bill).
The way you should turn on your heat will vary with your setup. For instance, if you are using an oil bath, you should have a general idea of your hotplate's capabilities. For example, you should know that if you use clean oil in your bath, and if your hotplate is set at #3, when max temp of #3 setting is reached, the oil bath will be at 125degC. In other words, calibrate your hotplate/oilbath as best as possible.
So, let's say you've calibrated your hotplate, and you're ready to distill some sassy. Turn your hotplate so that it will reach a maximum temperature of 30 degC (remember, this is with your vacuum on at full strength). You probably won't have anything coming over yet, which is ok. You just want to let that sassy get warm slowly. If something is coming over, let it collect.
After your setup has been at 30C for at least 30 mins, it's time to turn up the heat some more. You want to take your setup to 35C now. It should take you 10 mins. to get to that temp (you should bee heating at a rate of about 1 degC per 2 minutes). When you get to 35C, hold it there for at least 15 minutes. If something is coming over, let it collect. After 15 minutes, you're going to heat to 40C. Same heat rate as before: 1 degC per 2 minutes. Hold at 40C for at least 30 minutes. If anything is coming over, let it collect. After 30 minutes, heat to 45degC. Same rate of heating still. Hold at 45C for 15 minutes. Now climb to 50degC with the same heat rate (1 deg per 2 minutes). Sit on 50C for at least 30 minutes. If there's any forerun, let it collect.
You want to follow this pattern until you are 10 degC below your target temp (the lowest temp you think you will get safrole). When you are 10 degC below target temp, it's time to empty the forerun and change flasks. To do this, you leave everything running EXCEPT you have to disconect the vacuum. If you're using a valve, slowly turn the vacuum off. Disconnecting to vacuum quickly may result in an explosion/implosion due to the sudden change of pressure inside the system.
With vacuum disconnected, change receiving flasks. When a clean flask is in place, turn the vacuum on again....and again no sudden changes is pressure!
With the vacuum back on, start heating again at the same heat rate as earlier. Collect your safrole over a 10 degC window. For example, if you see the first safrole coming at 70degC, collect all the way to 80degC. The range of collection is broadened because we are using a vacuum, and vacuums are difficult to keep constant.
In (not) my experience, a fractional distillation of sassy oil (distilling about 300mL or so) will take anywhere from 5-7 hours. It may sound like a long time, but going slowly and carefully should lead to very clean safrole.
Also, save your foreruns and what's left in the disitllation flask. There's probably some small amounts of safrole in both of them. Stick the liquid in a jar and toss it in the freezer....you may get some safrole crystals.
I know that sometimes controlling the temp of a vac distillation can bee tricky, but that's why you go so slowly. Think of it like driving a car: the slower you drive, the more control you have of the car.
I hope this helped you out some, and I hope it wasn't too boring... good luck peace


technology

  • Guest
I would just like to say...'
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2003, 04:25:00 AM »
would just like to say...' very imforming Nitrous351, i must say that is some very useful info presented there, guaranteed to be useful to some bees, as it was for my self.

much thanxxxx :P

abolt

  • Guest
Save time and glassware
« Reply #17 on: September 15, 2003, 09:45:00 AM »
Instead of constantly changing glassware, I recommend you try this technique, in order to test/seperate your fractions.

Post 452245

(abolt: "Teflon Microtube", Newbee Forum)


Of course, the simplest way to the purest safole is to double freeze. ;)


technology

  • Guest
Just a point, perhaps good idea
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2003, 04:42:00 AM »
for all those that are concerned about changing the receiver flask, you can get a 3-way receiver vacuum adapter, which saves you from taking the flask off, and perhaps having your goodies jump into the receiver flask, from removing vacuum.

this justs stops that concern if any bees have it, as all you have to do is rotate to the desired flask and collect the desired fraction...
'very good idea me thinks'

all the best

i have looked for a picky and cant find one, but i am sure all bees understand what i am on about.

NeoSynthesis

  • Guest
3-way "cow" receiving (vacuum) adapter
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2003, 06:01:00 AM »
Actually it's a great idea! These things do go for around $60-80 bucks (24/40) but definetly seem to be worthwhile getting. Not sure how to "seal" the third distributor if you're only expecting 2 fractions (forerun/main) and don't intend to use a third flask. Any suggestions?

slackdaddy

  • Guest
Just use a little 50ml receiving flask.
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2003, 08:47:00 PM »
Just use a little 50ml receiving flask.  It's small enough that it won't get in the way; and you never know - it might bee usefull down the road. Mine only cost $11.00.


mindlib

  • Guest
Bredt recieving flasks
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2003, 12:50:00 AM »
Good idea, if the flasks are big enough to contain the whole fractions..
You can also use, without breaking the vacuum, a fraction cutter.

A fraction cutter is shown in post:

Post 459212

(raffike: "MDMA a la Os/Bs", Newbee Forum)


and here:

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/equipment/simple2fancy.html