Author Topic: Acetic Anhydride from peracetic acid!?  (Read 24258 times)

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Osmium

  • Guest
In other words, Post 271991 Post 247901
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2002, 03:23:00 PM »
In other words,

Post 271991

(hypo: "first encouraging ketenelamp experiment", Methods Discourse)

Post 247901 (missing)

(Osmium: "Re: Acetic Anhydride", Chemicals & Equipment)

Post 200799 (missing)

(Osmium: "Re: Relativly simply Acetic Anhydride Synth.", Chemistry Discourse)


I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

Aurelius

  • Guest
acid chloride synths
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2002, 03:24:00 PM »
why not just use the new acid chloride synth for some acetyl chloride and use it for the AA?

Osmium

  • Guest
why not just use the new ...
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2002, 03:40:00 PM »
> why not just use the new acid chloride synth for some
> acetyl chloride and use it for the AA?

Dunno which one you mean, but consider this:
acetone, electricity and distilled water, the only required chems and reagents in this synth are very cheap and OTC. This process is also not very demanding, it can in principle run continuously without attention.
Read the above links!

Maybe there is a way to simplify hypo's ketenelamp experiment even further?

What if the flask contained refluxing GAA, and acetone was slowly, dropwise added to it? Since the result has to be distilled anyway it doesn't matter if all the crap ends up in the boiling GAA/AA mixture, this will simplify the design considerably. Acetone is cheap, so just burn all the shit that manages to escape from the top of the condenser.

Ketene absorption will without a doubt be less efficient, but by adding a simple wash bottle with GAA this can be overcome. Otherwise, consider that acetone is cheap and for small amounts and for the glassware-challenged among us this easier version might be good enough.
When you believe that enough of the GAA is converted into AA, simply remove most of the stuff in the boiling flask, distill it and fill it up again with the AA foreruns plus some of the GAA/AA /acetone/whatever mix from the final absorption washbottle.

The really crazy ones among us can even use the generated gasses to heat the whole synth!  8)
Just kidding.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

Antoncho

  • Guest
The complete specification....
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2002, 05:40:00 PM »
Check out this:

Patent US2259895




It explains pretty much everything.

Simple, undemanding, perfectly OTC. IMHO, a good way.

OTOH, some equipment is definitely required. In this way it's similar to the acetone pyrolysis thing.



Antoncho

Osmium

  • Guest
Nice, especially for bees interested in propionic ...
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2002, 06:36:00 PM »
Nice, especially for bees interested in propionic anhydride.
I think the ketene procedure is hard to beat in ease, cost, yield and simplicity.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

Aurelius

  • Guest
US Patent 2259895
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2002, 02:43:00 AM »
Hey Antoncho, it's nice when aurelius actually has time to do work.  here's your patent- in text (the pertinent parts anyway)

US Patent 2259895

Process for the manufacture of aliphatic carboxylic acid anhydrides

(Antoncho:  Post # 392044)

The present inverntion related to the production of organic carboxylic acid anhydrides such as acetic anhydride and other simple aliphatic anhydrides.  (listed through butyric)

It is known that in the oxidation of aldehydes the corresponding carboxylic acid anhydrides are formed over the intermediate existence of per-compounds.  These anhydrides are obtained by known measures such as distillation in vacuo, whereby the anhydrides are preserved from the saponifying influence of the water formed at the oxidation.  Generally metal salts, especially the acetates of copper, cobalt, or manganese are used in the dissolved or suspended form.  The yields and the reactions velocity are very unsatisfying so that a technical process is nearly impossible. 

It is an object of my invention to provide such catalysts as accelerate the reactions so that the process may be well practiced. 

My invention consists in carrying through the said process with catalysts to which stronger acids, or those acids which are able to form complex compounds or other acidic substances are added.  Te catalysts to which these substances according to my invention are added are the salts of the metals with organic acids. 
I prefer to employ polyvalent metals salts and to use the free organic acids of the salt as solvent or suspending agent.  The salts of copper, silver, cobalt, nickel, iron chromium and the like are used, preferably I the presence of substances with large surface such as silica gel, active-carbon, or cellulose.
As strong acids I use sulphuric acids, alkali bisulfates, perchloric acid, phosphoric acid, acid phosphates, sulpho-acetic acid, benzene sulphonic acid, chlorinated carboxylic acids and so on. 


In the same way, weaker acidic substances which form strong acidic comples compounds by reactions with a corresponding carboxylic acids, such as boric acid, zinc chloride, vanadium acid, molybdic acid and the like my be employed. 

The effect obtainable by my invention is quite surprising.  One would have supposed that in the presence of such strong acids, which are well known hydrating catalysts, that the acetic anhydride would hydrolyze to the respective acid. 

 Copper sulphate is not a great catalyst for the reaction. owever, have shown to me, that by using a catalyst which was obtained by adding sulphuric acid to a solution of copper acetate the yields and the velocity of reaction are much improved. 

Oxygen containing gas (such as air) is bubbled through the reaction mixture to keep the solution at a maintainable heat level.  Adding esters of such acid/anhydride will also increase the velocity of the reaction.  This process can be carried out as a continuous process by removing ½ the reaction volume and distilling out the product.  The remaining substances are reintroduced to the reaction flask with additional catalyst.

Example 1:

In a stirring vessel, which is provided with a good cooling system and which enables the reaction liquid to circulate 30 parts of glacial acetic acid, 0.15 parts of cobalt acetate, and 0.2 parts of copper acetate are introduced.  At 44-45*C, 34.5kg of acetaldehyde are treated with the equivalent of quantity of oxygen, within 2-1/2 hours.  After one hour the reaction liquid contained 26% acetic anhydride and from that time the liquid was removed gradually in the rate as acetaldehyde was introduced. 55%  of the reacted acetaldehyde was turned to acetic anhydride. 

Example 2:

In the same way as in Ex. 1, by using 0.15parts cobalt acetate and 0.2 copper sulfate within 2 hours, 17.6 parts acetaldehyde entered into the reaction, whereby a yield of 52% acetic anhydride was obtained.

Example 3:

I used 0.15 parts of cobalt acetate, 0.2 copper acetate and 0.02 part sulfuric acid.  Within one hour 17.5 parts of acetaldehyde are reacted with a yield of 63% acetic anhydride.

Example 4:

I used 0.15part of cobalt acetate, 0.2 part of copper acetate and 0.03 parts benzene sulfonic acid.  Within one hour, 18.8kg acetaldehyde are reacted, whereby a 61% yield of 3kg of acetic anhydride) is obtained.

Example 5:

when using 0.15part of cobalt acetate, 0.2 part copper acetate and 0.03part boric acid, 18.2 parts acetaldehyde were reacted per hour and 13.1kg AA/hour were formed. 61% yield.

Example 7:

In a stirring vessel as in Example 1 to a solution of 30 parts of ethyl acetate, 0.15 part cobalt acetate, 0.1 part copper acetate and 0.3 part boric acid in 500ml GAA  pure acetaldehyde was  introduced with the equivalent quantity of oxygen at a rate corresponding to the velocity of the oxidation.  18.4 kg  acetaldehyde were reacted/ hour and 15.4 kg of AA were obtained.    yielded 72% !!!! The reaction liquid had a content of 32% AA, the reaction temperature was kept at 44-45*C



There are more examples, only one with higher yields (73% AA, but more reactants needed) 

eatly advised not to use Manganese catalysts as they reduce the yield to consistant 20% ranges. 

Other simple aliphatic acids may be used to obtain their respective anhydrides. 

 

BillyBoy

  • Guest
Catalysts use
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2002, 11:26:00 AM »
I`m a bit confused here about use of catalysts.

In process described by me, and latter by Mountain Girl, use of manganese and copper acetate are to prevent forming of explosive amounts of peracetic acid.

But in US Patent 2259895 catalysts are used to accelerate the reactions.
Quote: "...accelerate the reactions so that the process may be well practiced."

So according to the patent if we don use catalysts we get a crappy yied.

Any thougts on that?

PolytheneSam

  • Guest
I thought I posted this before
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2002, 05:23:00 PM »
I wonder if this would bee of help.

Patent US6387238



http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html


The hardest thing to explain is the obvious

Aurelius

  • Guest
Damn Sam!!!
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2002, 06:53:00 PM »
Aurelius was going to step up for that patent too, but DAMN SAM!! it's 21 pgs!!  forget that (at least for now).  does anybody have text for that one?

Rhodium

  • Guest
Electrolytic synthesis of peracetic acid
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2002, 08:02:00 PM »
Abstract

An electrolysis unit has an anode and a gas diffusion cathode. Air is fed to the cathode to generate peroxide species, such as hydrogen peroxide, peroxide ions, or peroxide radicals by electrolysis of oxygenated water. A peracetic acid precursor, such as acetyl salicylic acid, reacts with the peroxide to form peracetic acid. An ion selective barrier optionally separates the unit into two chambers, an anodic chamber and a cathodic chamber. By selecting either a proton permeable membrane or an anion exchange membrane for the barrier, the peracetic acid may be formed in either an alkaline electrolyte in the cathodic chamber or in an acid electrolyte in the anode chamber, respectively.

US Pat 6,387,238 - Full Text:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6387238


PolytheneSam

  • Guest
bookmark this
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2002, 10:17:00 PM »

BillyBoy

  • Guest
acetone autoignition temp?
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2002, 11:05:00 PM »
About that ketene lamp... seems like a great thing, but what about acetone autoignition temp?

I have looked thru some data sheets on acetone autoignition point, and found that info on that varies from 465-540°C, and acetone pyrolysis operates @ 695–705° (Org.Syn.)

So how come the whole thing dident just blow up?

I know that ketene lamp works, but swim wants to bee 100% sure b4 he tries anything  ;)

hypo

  • Guest
no O2
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2002, 11:15:00 PM »
> So how come the whole thing dident just blow up?

no O2 => no explosion. the trick is to have a
very heavy reflux before turning on current.
(but yes, first time it _is_ unnerving)

be careful! the gases are extremely toxic!

PolytheneSam

  • Guest
no O2
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2002, 12:11:00 AM »
Flush out the air with N2 or CO2.


Megatherium

  • Guest
Ketene toxicity
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2002, 12:54:00 AM »
be careful! the gases are extremely toxic!

What Hypo said is certainly not an understatement.  Ketene is a poisonous gas having a toxicity comparably with phosgene  :o  :o  :o .  If you observe a pungent odour resembling acetic anhydride, you 'd better run for your life since this means that there is a leak in the apparatus.  It goes without saying that this procedure must be done in an efficient fume cupboard.  If you 're a first time chemist, it is not the procedure I would recommend.

BillyBoy

  • Guest
Toster wire
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2002, 01:11:00 AM »
uhmm... could on use a simple toaster wire for that? It glows red...

If one opens toaster and uses his mechanism for ketene lamp, there`s no need for current regulator.
( I sopouse one would use a current regulator to set it right)

Lets say i toaster mechanism for it. How would I know the temp. is right?
By the gass forming I soupose?

hypo

  • Guest
don't think so...
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2002, 01:36:00 AM »
> uhmm... could on use a simple toaster wire for that? It glows red...

i don't think so, but it's possible. check the web for nichrome wire
or resistance wire. 2 types of resistance wires were tried, one worked
(the expensive one for about $2/m) and the other one didn't work ($1.5/m).
use the one that goes >1200°C.

> there`s no need for current regulator

you really want a way to control the ketene production rate.

> How would I know the temp. is right? By the gass forming I soupose?

yes, ketene / methane production goes fast.

note one thing though: acetyl had major problems with the insulation.
(the stopper couldn't stand the heat). my experimentator didn't have
the problem. the grey eu-stopper showed signs of chemical reaction (the
bottom got dark - not really strange at several hundred °C in an
agressive ketene atmosphere), but it didn't brittle or something.

BillyBoy

  • Guest
Toaster wire
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2002, 11:03:00 AM »
hmmm... i have searched on the web for toaster wire, and it seem that it is mostly nicrome wire! ;D  ;D  ;D

Check this:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/toaster1.htm




nutlin

  • Guest
Yup, toaster wire is nichrome.
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2003, 01:56:00 AM »
Yup, toaster wire is nichrome. Same with the wire in blow driers.

java

  • Guest
RE: acetaldehyde synthesis
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2003, 04:42:00 AM »
Captin_Mission:  any references for your claim or text where you make your claim.........I would be interested to read as I'm looking for an easy  synthesis for acetaldehyde ...........java