light energys effect on an Phosphorus acid cook

[BullwinkleMoose]

this bee is preparing for his first
' Phosphorus acid, I , pseudo ' cook

in past HI\RP cooks moose always used a 60 watt black light
'Party Bulb' as the heat source ... it max's out at 125 c (in flask)

we dont think thats gonna cut it,,, anyways my question !

How would the light energy from an incandescant bulb affect this reaction..


Sorry but I just like to cook on lightbulbs
it makes me happy

[WizardX]

Yes! Photodissociation.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/chemistry/Photodissociation.html

The photodissociation of expansion-cooled HI monomer by using 266 nm radiation...

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=20459329

HBr photodissociation.

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/pt/laser/ashfold/pdf/hbr.pdf

[BullwinkleMoose]

Thats the end of that

Thanks Wizzard X

[stratosphere]

but keep in mind bullwinkle, 266nm is in the UV region and a incandesent bulb puts out shit little UV.

plus this photo dissassociation probobly occurs most effeciently with only HI present and at low pressures, because interatomic collisions de-excite the molecule before the dissassociation occurs. HI dissolved in very polar water is a whole other animal altogether and its photo dissassociation would be even less of a problem.

so to summarize the incandesents energy output is mostly IR and frequencies too low to matter, so as long as your not using a tanning bulb it shoudn't matter.

[WizardX]

stratosphere: UV radiation does not transmit through glass or borosilicate glass (lab glassware) very well; actually quite poorly. It is this reason quartz apparatus is used in experimentation when UV radiation has to transmit though.

Exposing HI to any UV photon energy in the gaseous state, or aqueous state, is not a good idea. A simple IR (heat) source will insure that the HI is not being photodissociated to any degree and that side-reaction will be kept to a minimum.

[Alces_Alces]

does this mean that the wavelenghts from an incandescant bulb,
when passed through ghetto equivilant glassware (clear),

wont adversely affect the HI ?

AA

[WizardX]

does this mean that the wavelenghts from an incandescant bulb, when passed through ghetto equivilant glassware (clear),wont adversely affect the HI?

There will always be some degree of photodissociation when incandescant light is used. The degree of photodissociation of 57% w/w HI can be determined experimentally by exposing the 57% w/w HI with your ghetto equivilant glassware (clear) and light bulb setup.

The amount of I2 produced from the original I2 content of the 57% w/w HI before expose [1]; is an indication of photodissociation.

NOTE: [1] light expose ONLY, not heating the 57% w/w HI as this will cause dissociation decomposition.

Eg. 2HI => H2 + I2

Hydriodic Acid MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET 

http://www.hschem.com/msdshi.html

SECTION IV-REACTIVITY DATA

INSTABILITY: Stable (will darken when exposed to light)
HAZARDOUS POLYMERIZATION: not known
HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION: none
DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS: Elemental iodine

[ampdup]

Do you sit your flask right on the bulb? Balance it in the lampshade?  I can't for the life of me imagine how this is accomplished w/o breaking the bulb or burning the house down or (most probably) 'lectricuting myself or (at least) sustaining 3rd degree burns from a busted "party bulb" and a spilled half finished Guiness.

[buz]

with certain precautions, an incandescent lightbulb will work fine underwater. i have cooked soup with a lightbulb submerged in a large jar.  of course, it was the heat, not the light, that was doing the cooking. easy enough to shield a flask from the light of this sort of heat source..if one deems the light to bee detrimental to the rxn.
the entire rxn can bee done underwater, for that matter.
but that's another story for another time.

[Alces_Alces]

Species Alces_Alces now has 2 'H3PO3 \ HI E reductions uder his antlers....

Both employed a, 60 watt, 'Black Light Party Bulb' to supply the required heat for the reaction.

Two things were determined:
1.
- a 60 watt bulb, ( when heating a 20oz beverage bottle containing 7 g's E, 7 g's H3PO3, 8.4 g's I & 7 mL's H2O ), effectively maintained a temperature of aprox. 120 - 135C : successfully driving the reactions to success.

2.
- The light energy emitted from the incandescant
, Black Light, party light bulb did not have any adverse effect on the HI.



NOW for picturing how one cooks on a lightbulb....
 there are three ways that Mr. Alces has done this:

1st....
An Aerosol can was emptied and the top was cut off with a Popular janeese, TV Infomertial, knife.. Next a mounting brackat was fixed to the inside bottom of the can: the light fixture was mounted in a hole that was in the center of this bracket. The mounte bulb aimed upwards..

The same bracket was used to fix the "Lamp Mantle" to a
6 x 6 chunk of lumber to provide a secure base to keep the Mantle upright.

About 4 inches above the light bulb holes were sliced every 3\4's of an inch around the circumference of the can( paralell with the top \bottom),,,,, through the sliced openings, heavy duty paper clips were bent open and fed in one hole and then out through the hole across from it on the opposite side of the can..... This was repeated until a sturdy grill was constructed, upon which many a beer bottle flask did sit !


2nd and 3 rd  are way simpler

2nd
is a 2 x 6 mounted ceramic light fixture..
1 of it's 2 mounting screws is replaced with a longer one and 2 large washers are put on the screw...

3 pieces of, 12 AWG bare, copper wire are loosly tristed together and with a pair of needle nose pliers a round eyelet is formed on one end... The eyelet is sandwiched between the 2 large washers on the light fixture mounting screw and the sucker is tighteded....

next...
using the actual flask to be used with this contraption, twist the copper wires to form a round support base that holds the flask just above the light bulb and with the remaining length of copper simply wrap it around the flask to secure it in the center of the formed wire base support..

20 dollar wonder



3rd and Last
is to simpy set the ceramic fixture on somthing that's not flammable and then with bricks and broken pieces of cinder block, build a box that will cage in the flask, holding it centered as it sits directly on top of the light bulb.

No light bulb or flask glassware has ever failed by heating in this manner...


VIVA Le Lamp Mantle

[ampdup]

I mentioned this to a friend of mine today, and she said that they had used one of those halogen work lights all the time.  Seeing as how it has a thick UV filtered glass lens, they would just point it up at the ceiling and just set the vessel right on the glass and it had worked flawlessly.  As an added bonus, she said that the light illuminated the flask and they could watch the reaction easily, even from across the room.  Digging out my worklight is next on my to do list...this I gotta see

[WizardX]

Alces_Alces, buz, ampdup: because of the H3PO3, or H3PO2, or RP that recycles the I2 from the dissociation.

[ampdup]

[Jacked]

There use to be a bee around here that used lava lamps..
 What is wrong with a simple hot plate? Or even an oil bath for the higher temp reactions? Seems like a lot less work with documented results over and over again to the positive..
 Unless your goal is in the experimenting with the effects of light on reactions and not just what the reaction is producing itself. Then I could see it but if you are "depending" on positive result each time and that is your main goal, go with what is known to be by majority, as sound methods, especially if your employing geto equipment and reagents derived from OTC products.

 Just my opinion for any newbee that might stumble upon this thread..

[LoW_JacK]

There use to be a bee around here that used lava lamps..

God damn it's good to see that there are others as ghetto as I have been in days past.  When I say ghetto, I mean ghetto too.
I'm talking about running 15 or so, grams of feed in a corona bottle with a garden hose attached to a bucket of dirt, taped up with scotch tape and clingwrap, on a mo'fuggin' lava lamp. 

I believe said rxn to be the lowest point in my all too short chemical enginneering phase. But the shit was screamin' and I must admit, I impressed myself with how easily I adapted and made due with whatever I had at hand.

Once one learns this rxn, it seems as though failure isnt even an option. Weak gear can result from overlooked steps , but failure is for fucking rooks.

[ampdup]

I'll tell you why this method interests me more than a burner or hotplate.  Safety. 

SWIM can't, nor does he want, to sit with a bubblin' flask for 12-14 hours or more. And I'll be damned if SWIM leaves a hot plate running unattended.  Swim can stick a lamp in a closet and close the door without worrying about a fire.  Maybe it is just as safe (we are talking about a potentually explosive situation here) but its something about that exposed burner.  At least a worklight is in a case with a thick glass cover.  If the light shorts out, the bulb just goes out.  But if a electric burner shorts out or the temp. adjuster fails, what if it kicked itsaelf on high temp or...........you get it.

This appeals to me for more piece of mind, I guess.

[geezmeister]

the other solution is to use a thermally limited deep fat fryer as a heat source. These are designed to be cool to the touch, and are not fire hazards. I have run many LWR's in closets or back rooms for 48 hours with only occasional checks. I have done some 48 hour refluxes with no checks, although I cannot in good conscience recommend anyone do that. More planning and more safety considerations go into that operation than I care to discuss in this thread, and I do not want to give the impression that setting up a 48 hour LWR to run without supervision is a piece of cake and safe to do. It can be done, I have done it, others have done it. Do not try it until you have a good deal of experience with this reaction and its variables.

[LoW_JacK]

a thermally limited deep fat fryer

I love it when he talks like that....


a thermally limited deep fat fryer roughly translates to:::  A wok.