Author Topic: Can A/B rxns be "undone" w/out the acid?  (Read 2920 times)

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halfkast

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Can A/B rxns be "undone" w/out the acid?
« on: February 11, 2003, 06:56:00 AM »
What I want to know is, if you now have the product of your A/B, an aqueous salt for example. Is it possible to undo it, without the corresponding acid available, the one used in the A/B?

By removal of the basing agent somehow perhaps? Or is this out of the question?

Thanks

odin

  • Guest
I would like to help but I REALY dont ...
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2003, 01:59:00 PM »
I would like to help but I REALY dont understan the question


Psi_Locybe

  • Guest
Hi, newbee...
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2003, 02:14:00 PM »
What I want to know is, if you now have the product of your A/B, an aqueous salt for example. Is it possible to undo it, without the corresponding acid available, the one used in the A/B?

By removal of the basing agent somehow perhaps? Or is this out of the question?


  Just for the sake of argument, let's say that the aqueous salt product is psilocybine HCl

  The 'basing agent' for the HCl is psilocybine; don't wanna dump that down the drain.  ;)

  Here... A/B walkthrough.  The important thing to remember are 'alkaloids are bases.'  I'll use 'Sp' for 'whatever organic acid' - it's short for 'spooge.'

...and, in case you don't know, Na is sodium, NaOH is lye, HCl is hydrochloric acid, NaCl is table salt.

Acid phase, aqueous extract -
PsilocybinSp + HCl -> PsilocybinHCl + Sp
(both forms of psilocybin are aqueous salts at this point)

Base phase, transfer to NP)
PsiloHCl + NaOH -> Psilo freebase +NaCl
(salt stays in the water, freebase drops out of your water, into either NP or filter, depending on how wasteful you like to be)

Gassing out -
Psilo freebase + HCl gas -> PsiloHCl
(since the aqueous salt isn't soluable in your non-polar, crystals form).

  This leaves us where your question is - i.e. 'how to make crack.'

...as you've probably guessed by now, all you have to do is add a stronger base than your alkaloid (NaOH again!), and the acid will go where it's more wanted.

PsiloHCl + NaOH -> Psilo freebase + NaCl

...a jar of salt water, with psilocybin dust on the bottom.

  Any questions?


halfkast

  • Guest
That was absolutely beautiful P_L - thank you!
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2003, 06:12:00 AM »
That was absolutely beautiful P_L - thank you! No no questions

My question has been answered fully. I was very general in my question for the protection of certain members sources. Sign of the times...

The general answer to my general question was that: Yes, you can use a DIFFERENT, more common acid (than was used in the A/B by another party) to titrate the aqueous saline solution, to steal back the basing agent (NaOH, KOH...), leaving the acid all on it's own!  8)
I mean you can steal away the Na or K, the O and H run away somewhere permanently I think!
Do you know where the O and H run away to during basification? that can be my question Psi_Locybe  ;D
 

The origional question was in the case that you only had available to you the salt, and you wanted to remove an atom from it to get back to the acid that helped create it.

Psi_Locybe

  • Guest
Psi blushes...
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2003, 09:49:00 PM »
That was absolutely beautiful P_L - thank you!

  You've gotten me a-blushing... :)  Glad I could be of some help...

Sign of the times...

  Speaking of 'signs of the times' - pardon me whilst I preach at you - how do ya think *anyone* who follows, say, 1 Tim 4:4-5 or Matt 7:17 will fare afore the DEA's gun?

"For *everything* created by God is good, and *nothing* is to be rejected, for it has been sanctified by the word of God and by prayer..."

  ::sigh::  Sorrowful world... smoke a bowl and mourn their souls...

I mean you can steal away the Na or K, the O and H run away somewhere permanently I think!
Do you know where the O and H run away to during basification? that can be my question...


  You'll go places.  :)  Curiosity's 99% of science, and you're pretty observant to boot - yup, I left a little something out of the equations above.

NaOH + HCl -> NaCl + H2O

...and now it's balanced.  :)  Water is a byproduct of many a salt.

The origional question was in the case that you only had available to you the salt, and you wanted to remove an atom from it to get back to the acid that helped create it.

  Yup.  :)  Quite possible, though isolating the acid can be tricky.  Salting out of a non-polar solvent can help...

...it's used to obtain a lot of acids, as well - if one finds, say, a rock known to be cupric sulfate, and hits it up with vinegar, one will have sulfuric acid (which could probably stand a bit of cleaning, but...)

...or the use of salt and vinegar to polish pennies via HCl liberation.  :)

  Just be careful.  ;)  One or two of the more... cared for... acids have been known to isomerize under extremes of pH; lysergic acid is one hypothetical example.  :)

  Take care...