The Vespiary

The Hive => Methods Discourse => Topic started by: Glacial_Refluxer on May 22, 2003, 05:37:00 PM

Title: Myristicin > MMDA advice needed
Post by: Glacial_Refluxer on May 22, 2003, 05:37:00 PM

Swim is vary interested in trying this synth

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/mmda.html (https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/mmda.html)

Can swim use 30% ammonium hydroxide with extended time to
aminate or is anhydrous ammonia required?

Title: You need to study chemistry.
Post by: moo on May 22, 2003, 06:13:00 PM

You need to study chemistry. Don't forget to read PIHKAL either. Screw-ups can cost you a lot more than money and you are going to screw up if you don't know the basics. No offense, because that's the way it is.

Title: Thanks but.....
Post by: Glacial_Refluxer on May 22, 2003, 06:35:00 PM

Your post did not help at all. PIHKAL synths are a bit more
than swim wants to deal with, to many chems involved.

So can this amination take place with h2o present?

Title: Bubble thru 35mL anhydr.
Post by: Antibody2 on May 22, 2003, 07:09:00 PM

Bubble thru 35mL anhydr. MeOH in an ice/salt bath

anhydr.=anhydrous=no water
you don't want water

Title: My advice: Use another method
Post by: Rhodium on May 22, 2003, 08:07:00 PM

I thought I had removed that document already, due to the procedure very likely being at least partly bull. I haven't heard of anyone ever successfully repeating that experiment by IudexK, while I get tons of PM's from people asking me to tell them what they did wrong when trying to get any product from it.

Title: which stepd doesn't work?
Post by: hypo on May 23, 2003, 12:26:00 AM

a friend of a friend ended up with nearly only polimerised crap
after doing an performic on iso-myristicin (pump probably too
weak), so he is quite interested in this method.

do you know which step is bogus?

what i'm thinking about is reacting the (fractionated) myristicin
with HI in an organic solvent (for example AcOH or DCM?), then
recrystallise it.

the amination would be done pretty much IudexK style (with
magnetic stirring). i figure the big problem here is the
production of secondary and higher amines. but phtalimide and
hydrazine are not available.  :(

is that sound, or should my foaf not waste precursors?

Title: Hypo-i expect if there were problems it wasn't
Post by: Antibody2 on May 23, 2003, 05:39:00 AM

Hypo-i expect if there were problems it wasn't that reaction(modifiied performic), much more likely too hot a distillation, IMHO.

ended up with nearly only polimerised crap
after doing an performic on iso-myristicin my sister has seen sucessful performic oxidations of both iso-myristicin and iso-apiole(dill and parsley). In yields that are comparable to what is acheived using safrole.

She said if she had it to do again she would do it the same :)

Title: yes,
Post by: hypo on May 23, 2003, 06:18:00 AM

i know. that's why i said i think the pump is too weak. the non polimerised
fraction came at about 180°C.  :(  an oil change is in order...

Title: Amination
Post by: Rhodium on May 23, 2003, 04:34:00 PM

The most bogus step is very likely the (Delepine) amination... Hexamine amination of a secondary halide is unprecedented in the literature.

Title: hmm...
Post by: hypo on May 24, 2003, 12:58:00 AM

but note that IudexK is using NH3 in a bomb (sort of).
egotrip is using the delepine:

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/dmmda-2.html (https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/dmmda-2.html)

in the book named after our friend orgy, i read something interesting:
"the yield of primary amine can be increased by using an excess of
ammonia (obviously) or by adding ammonium carbonate or ammonium chloride"
i figure the primary amine being a stronger base will liberate an NH3
molecule and be transformed in the unreactive ammonium ion. the HBr/HI
produced in this reaction should already do this to some extent, but having
an excess of ammonium can't hurt. nice.  :)

Title: Swim shall give it a try
Post by: Glacial_Refluxer on May 24, 2003, 05:38:00 AM

That DMMDA-2 synth looks pretty simple, but swim got kind
of discoureged when Rhodium made the comment on the
hexamine amination.

2 questions:

Swim does not have fractional distill equipment, would
useing  straight parsley oil yeild anything if the synth is
not bogus?

Could i2 crystals be used in place of the sodium iodide?