Author Topic: Buffered Performic write-up/pictorial for newbees  (Read 7060 times)

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OcoteaCymbarum

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Buffered Performic write-up/pictorial for newbees
« on: August 31, 2004, 03:56:00 AM »
I decided to take pictures of my last buffered performic. Ever since i’ve starting using this route, I’ve never looked back on a wacker.

Step 1  Safrole isomerisation at atmospheric pressure

I cant be running a vacuum pump all night so this is my way to go:
Set-up for a regular distillation. Place the safrole(purified by simple distillation under vacuum) along with 2-5% KOH under good stirring.  I use about 2.5% and it works like a charm. The temp is brought up to around 180 to get rid of all water. 1 hour at that temp is usually fine, I dont really keep track so much. Then the solution is left to stir at around 140-150 overnight. You dont loose any safrole even without a refluxing column at that temperature . The next morning, vacuum is connected to the system and isosafrole distilled. Yields are always 95-98%.  The easy part about this isomerisation is that you only have to rig one setup for the whole process.  For those who have never prepared  isosafrole, there are 2 distinct properties I use to discriminate. First isosafrole has a different smell then safrole, a lot weaker. Take sniff  of safrole. Take a sniff of coffee beans. Smell iso. Its different isnt it? Then look at iso under light. It doesnt refract light as much as pure safrole. I even can see it in the receiver flask as it is distilled. Maybe you will end-up with 1% safrole, but it doesnt change a thing for later stages.

Step 2  Forming the glycol

Using a 2L flask, this is the most iso you can convert to keep control of the reaction IMHO.

300 grams iso
91 grams Sodium Bicarbonate(Arm n hammer )
800 ml DCM
279 grams H2O2 35%
461 grams Formic acid 88%

1.   Forming the peracid
I suggest making 2 half batches of peracid for this reaction. So 140 grams peroxyde with 230 formic. To a stirring solution of peroxyde on a cool water bath is added the formic all at once. This is left to stir 30-45 minutes. The reaction isnt really exothermic.

2.The 2L flask
While the peracid is forming, place the iso, bicarb and dcm in this order in th 2L flask and leave to stir. Set-up a refluxing column along with an addition funnel on those 2 necks.  The solution will look like that:


3.   Adding the peracid
Place your freshly formed peracid in the addition funnel and start adding the peracid over the course of about 90 minutes. The solution will slowly start to turn yellow, it will reflux, and a lot of foam is usually produced in the early stages. Just adjust your drip rate a little slower and it will calm down. About 15 minutes in it looks like that:

The foam will subside and 1 hour into peracid addition it looks like that


4.   Forming the peracid(part 2)
When about 45 minutes into addition, start preparing your second batch of peracid. That way it will be fresh when you finish dripping in the first half.

I believe doing so cuts down on the amount of peracid that decomposes. Performic acid is not so stable so even after 2 hours, you see it starting to bubble, meaning its decomposing. At least thats always been my experience using ACS grade Formic and hydroponics store peroxyde( I wouldnt want to order formic and peroxyde from the same company)

5. Then leave to stir for an extra 24 hours. The solution progresses from white to yellow to orange, much like orange juice. This is what the solution looks like in the end. You can see that there is still enough breathing room in the flask. At least I’ve never add a problem.

6.   Place in a sep funnel, sep off the dcm, extract with a little more dcm. In the sep, the layers look like that:


7.   Distill off the dcm using a water bath. I like to do that overnight. Its a lot of dcm to be distilled out, so you can save-up some time there. Weight your glycol. From this one I got about 435 grams of glycol, its always been nearly quantitative. The glycol is red/dark orange and looks like:


Step 3 HCl hydrolysis

Thanks to Chromic I have never needed to do a sulfuric acid hydrolysis. HCl is really golden. In a 2L flask, you will have to do 2 hydrolysis by splitting the glycol in 2.

You need
435 grams glycol
540 ml MeOH
900 ml water
900 ml muriatic acid


So 270 ml MeOH and 450 ml water are combined and warmed to about 60 degrees. The glycol is added(217.5 grams) followed by 450 ml muriatic acid. Upon acid addition the solution will turn a little pink/orange.
The solution is refluxed for 2.5 hours at about 80 degrees celcius. It will start to change color maybe 15 minutes after acid addition. You will see oil starting to stream on the top as it is stirring. One hour in, you will definitely see globules of oil floating around and the solution is more brown by now. Like that:

After 2.5 hours, cool down to room temp using a water bath to speed things up a bit. Place in sep funnel and sep off bottom layer. This is your oil, its dark red/black. The top layer is orange. Add a litle and extract the top layer again. 2 times 100 ml dcm is more then plenty I believe.

This step is repeated twice if you dont have anything bigger then a 2L flask

Take your dcm/oil( combine both hydrolysis then wash) layer and wash it a couple of times with 5%NaOH. Be patient and make sure all the dcm is out. This can take multiple sepp off/wait cycles. But if you want to increase your yield do so. Then wash with fresh water, followed by brine. You can then dry it even more with epsom salts if you want.
Distill dcm. Start vacuum and distill off your ketone.

I will look like that:



This run afforded 244 grams of ketone. 100 grams were used a la RoundBottom, final yield of recrystalized amine 85 grams.
So 900 grams of iso could end as about 600-650 grams of salt

I welcome any inputs, experiences from other bees that have experience with this synth as there is always room for improvement.

abolt

  • Guest
Nice writeup. ;-) The temp is brought up to...
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2004, 04:55:00 AM »
Nice writeup. ;)

The temp is brought up to around 180 to get rid of all water. 1 hour at that temp is usually fine, I dont really keep track so much. Then the solution is left to stir at around 140-150 overnight.

No need to go to 180. Just bring it to 140-150 and hit it with weak vacuum for 1 hour, then leave it to stir overnight. Or better yet, Turn on your vacuum and raise the temp until the Safrole starts to bubble, but not distill. Hold it at this temp. with the vac on until bubbling ceases, telling you your isomerisation is complete. Then simply turn up the heat and distill. The higher the temp, the quicker isomerisation will be completed.

This is left to stir 30-45 minutes.

You don't have to stir it for any longer than 3-4 minutes.

Just adjust your drip rate a little slower and it will calm down.

Exothermia subsides greatly after the first half of the peracid has been added. As a general rule, the second portion can be dripped in roughly half the time it took for the first portion.

Performic acid is not so stable so even after 2 hours, you see it starting to bubble, meaning its decomposing.

Impurities will also cause it to break down, always use SCRUPULOUSLY CLEAN GLASSWARE, for Peracids, or, if you are able to, have a specific set of glassware for peracids, and use it for nothing else.

Distill off the dcm using a water bath. I like to do that overnight. Its a lot of dcm to be distilled out, so you can save-up some time there. Weight your glycol. From this one I got about 435 grams of glycol, its always been nearly quantitative.

300 grams of Isosafrole is ~1.85 moles, therefore 1.85 mloes Isosafrole Glycol is ~ 363 grams. I would figure your yield of 435 grams has residual DCM in it. After you have distilled and emptied your DCM to it's container, apply weak vacuum to remove the rest.

Take your dcm/oil( combine both hydrolysis then wash) layer and wash it a couple of times with 5%NaOH. Be patient and make sure all the dcm is out.

An old post with some good advice from chromic and goiterjoe suggest doing a water wash before the NaOH washes. Try it and I am sure you will find your seperations are nicer and cleaner. ;)


ApprenticeCook

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i like it i like it alot.....
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2004, 03:20:00 PM »
i like it i like it alot.....
Thanks heaps, saves me from doing one (i promise i was getting to it, just to fucking lazy... haha)

-AC


Xicori

  • Guest
Thank you for this writeup! - really nice!
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2004, 04:02:00 PM »
Thank you for this writeup! - really nice!  ;D

- I have nothing to add here, this should get definitely backed up in the Multimedia-section of rhodium´s page!

best wishes,
xicori

OcoteaCymbarum

  • Guest
Thanks for the input abolt
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2004, 11:36:00 PM »
I'm always opened to suggestions.

First about isomerisation. How long does it take under vacuum? Where I read, people say to reflux under vacuum overnight. Thats why I do the overnight thing. I have no experience doing it under vacuum, so I cant add more to that.

The second point about what you said I want to discuss is the glycol thing.

I agree totally with you looking at the structure of the glycol on rhodium's page. But the problem is that I did get 434 grams of "glycol" distilling the dcm out then rising the water bath temp to 90 for another hour or 2 to get all the dcm out.
When reading posts about this synth(before trying it), I read a post by Ritter a couple years ago where he states that the glycol formation was always quantitative, yielding 238 grams of glycol for every mol of iso.
Now if you look at the structure it doesnt make sense I agree.
So i was left with these two conflicting. Since with 300 grams iso I always get around 435 glycol, which goes along the lines of Ritter, i figured the later was right.
The second fact is that if there was dcm in there, I would not always end-up with the same end yield of glycol.


Now I'm at loss with this one. But I stopped thinkning about it when the end product was aminated, since results were always reproducible. Any inputs would greatly be appreciated since I wasnt able to find a post that argued that subject. Thanks again abolt.

I have to try the 5 minute peracid thingy to see how it works. Again, these assumptions were made based on posts read, one where Rhodium states that the peracid reaches a peak at 1 hour.

abolt

  • Guest
First about isomerisation.
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2004, 07:55:00 AM »
First about isomerisation. How long does it take under vacuum?

There is no definite answer, it is relative to heat.


dave1234

  • Guest
Thanks OC ...
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2004, 10:02:00 AM »
Thanks OC
Swim has had nothing but joy with this method.
Can't believe swim performed the traditional buffered performic method..
Swim now feels glee 8) .

Bond_DoubleBond

  • Guest
does anyone have any remarks as to whether the
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2004, 11:39:00 AM »
does anyone have any remarks as to whether the acid from the hydrolysis can be reused in sucessive rearrangements?  also, is rearrangement time independent of the scale of reaction? 

swim just ran a 450g scale performic and got about 15g of 2-alkene forerun, 360g ketone, and a LOT of remaining crap.  swim also let the hcl acid rearrangement run for 2.5 hours instead of 2.  is this extra time to blame for the large amount of non-ketone left in the distilling flask, or is 2.5 hours neccessary?

comments appreciated.

placebo

  • Guest
How much HcL did you use?
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2004, 11:15:00 AM »
How much HcL did you use?
SWIM did 1kg performic, and used 3L 30% HcL so that it would fit into 5L flask (no MeOH). That amount of HcL was approx half what there should have been (IIRC), so SWIM ran it 5 hours (was going to run 4 hours but fell asleep) and got 72%/mol or 80% by weight, which is what you got.

What's wrong with that yeild?


abolt

  • Guest
BDB, Those yields seem to be around the same...
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2004, 09:13:00 AM »
BDB, Those yields seem to be around the same as other bees have mentioned. The only further advice I would give is to run the HCl hydrolysis for 3 hours, otherwise a better vacuum, or maybe even using Peracetic, may improve things.


LaBTop

  • Guest
The only further improvement possible
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2004, 05:19:00 PM »
in this particular reaction is the use of a wiping film apparatus, as Ritter and me discussed in the past.
But the 600 to 800 dollars spend on it will need a lot of finetuning of that thingy, and will bring about 8 to 10 % increase of yield.
Is it worth that to you, and are you the investigating kind, than I strongly advice you to buy such a thing, it's a beautifull little toy. You got them very big, but the smallests glass ones are good for 1 gmol reactions enhancements. LT/


amine

  • Guest
Hey BDB
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2004, 05:48:00 AM »
Swim ran into the same problems back in the day polymerized crap, apparently my vacuum pump was dying and Swim didn't know it. The biggest thing Swim learned though is finding the bp of your ketone undervacuum and try to keep it always around that mark.

Swim'ssafrole comes over at around 100-110C which mean the ketone should be there around 125-135C (old pump brought it over at 150C). Make sure you watch that oil batch, Swim tries to make sure mine never exceeds 180C otherwise you get polymerized black tar.


DoctorFeelgood

  • Guest
Numbers are ok.
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2004, 09:12:00 PM »
I get the nearly the same numbers as OC:

150g Isosafrole
45g bicarb
400ml DCM

140g H2O2 (35%)
230g formic acid (86%) [both cooled]

yield: 222g isoglycol.

hydrolized with:

270g ethanole (96%)
450g tapwater
450g muriatic acid (31%)

yield of raw mdp2p: 136g
distilled (fraction 150-155C) with aspirator vacuum yield: 118g golden MDP2P (looked exactly as OC's)

DF