Author Topic: the tried and true method  (Read 2968 times)

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majic22

  • Guest
the tried and true method
« on: October 02, 2003, 08:36:00 PM »
youre doing it the hard way, take my advice and just distill it right out of the can.  heres how to do it. 

materials you will need:
1. metal ash bucket (the kind you have next to your fireplace)  this needs to be big enough to fit the can of adhesive remover in. 

2. container of Paint varnish remover (the stuff you listed sounded fine)  the fewer the ingredients, the better.   just make sure the container it comes in is metal so it wont melt, otherwise you will be an unhappy bee.

3.  a rubber stopper (cork) from any hardware store. theyre usually black.  just  make sure it will fit snugly in the spout of the paint/varnish remover can.  but dont let them see you fitting it for size right there in the store because that just wont look right.  buy a couple different sizes cause they are cheap anyway and thats better than having them get suspicious.

4.  about 4 feet of polyethylene tubing (it is the same material used in  the water line on your ice maker.)  its white. It is important that you get only this type of tubing.....(why, you ask?  because DCM will eat through the other kind dum dum.  thats its purpose.)  this can be picked up at most any hardware store.  Get the size that has an INNER diameter of about 1/4 inch.  but if you cant get that exact size, dont panic, just get the next size bigger.

5.  mop bucket  (big enough to at least fit a milk jug in.)

6.  2-3 gallon jugs of distilled water.  

7.  Ice (several bags) 3-4

8 cheap baking thermometer from wally world

Now after you have all that, heres how it works.

1.  Set your ash bucket on your stove top, then put the container of paint/varnish remover inside the ash bucket. 

2.  take your rubber stopper, and drill a hole in the middle of it.  Use a drill bit about the same size as your polyethylene tubing because this is what will be going in the hole.  dont make the hole too big though because it needs to be semi air tight.

3.  once you have a hole in the stopper, take your polyethylene tubing, and stick one end of it through the hole and make it stick about an inch out the bottom side of the stopper.

4  Stick the rubber stopper (with tubing) in the top of the can of varnish remover. 

5.  Grab your mop bucket and set it on the floor right in front of your stove. Then place one of the jugs of distilled water in it (dont pour out the distilled water trust me, you need this to weigh it down in the bucket.)  then fill the bucket around the jug of distilled water with a mixture of ice water (fawcet water is fine.)  and you must remember to keep ice in the bucket the entire time because the ice is acting as your condensor.

6. Now take the dangling end of your tubing and stick it into the jug of distilled water which is sitting in your bucket of ice water.

7.   Now fill up your ash bucket with water (fawcet water is fine)  There are two ways you can do this.  you could either just turn on the stove top which would heat up the water in the ash bucket which would heat up the paint varnish remover and successfully perform the reaction.  Or since DCM has such a low boiling point (39C), you could heat up water in a separate pot and keep adding it to the ash bucket. 

I prefer heating it directly with the stove since its less work but if you feel safer doing it the other way then by all means do that way.  But whichever way you do it, just remember to keep the temperature of the water in the ash bucket up to around 55-60 C.  this is where your thermometer will come in handy.  one more pointer, the longer the reaction goes on, the thicker the paint/varnish remover will become, so it might help if you add some distilled water to the paint and varnish remover and shake it up to make it more liquidy. 

this is a tried and true method and so easy to do.  go read a book, watch a movie, whatever, but dont get too far away to where you cant check on it periodically. 
good luck  :)


yellium

  • Guest
IIRC, methanol is soluble in DCM.
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2003, 04:26:00 PM »
IIRC, methanol is soluble in DCM. A simple extraction with water won't work, and will probably only result in emulsions from hell.

Chromic

  • Guest
Water in DCM
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2003, 12:12:00 AM »
DCM will hold water! If you're using for a liquid-liquid extraction, there is no need to dry the DCM before you use it though... even when distilling off wet DCM, there is no reason to dry it. If I remember, DCM forms an azeotrope with water...

halfkast

  • Guest
condensation and heat conduction
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2003, 05:02:00 PM »
Insert an unwound coathanger half way up your PE tube to your ice jug, it increases the area of condensation.

polyethylene, certainly isn't resistant to DCM.

Some types of PE might bee resistant to DCM and composites, but Ill bet you a fucken rubber O-ring that the soft black stopper you describe will dissolve in DCM or DCM vapour given enough time.  >:(   ;D

Copper is best, the cork won't know the difference. It'll condense far better and it's just as easy to assemble, and the DCM will bee purer as it won't have any dissolved LDPE in it.  :)


I posted a book about copper tubing but for this type of work all you need to use is engineering silicone...I'm not 100% on that, DCM could bee one of the few chemicals it isn't resistant against. Ill have to check.

Could someone with clean, clear DCM or methylene chloride place a piece of LDPE in a few mls of it and tell me if it turns yellow as it dissolves?


abolt

  • Guest
If I remember, DCM forms an azeotrope with...
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2003, 11:32:00 PM »
If I remember, DCM forms an azeotrope with water...

1.32% @ 20 Celcius


https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/equipment/pictures/solvent.miscibility.gif




notta234

  • Guest
DCM distillation from adhesive remover question
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2004, 06:46:00 PM »
SWIM tried mixing his adhesive remover with dH2O and it created a nice little white, non-layered mix. SWIM imagines this is what somebody was talking about above. SWIM then decided that he'd just try to distill this nice little white mix with a 200mm vigreux column inplace. The water bath temp got much higher than SWIM would have expected for a BP near 40C. The internal temp when the first distillate came over at was near 50C, and continued up to 60C. SWIM thought that 2 of the other 3 chems in this mix had BP's of 65c or so, and the third was over 100C. SWIM also had to do this distillation on his stove as his hotplace was a little busy. He didn't add any boiling stones or have a stir bar going.

The clear liquid in the receiving flask is obviously a mix of two different liquids because it forms two layers, with much the same look at water and oil.

Anybody have a clue what this stuff that SWIM made was? He's pretty sure he's just going to order this damn DCM and not screw with this crap because he's too much of a Newbee to be able to do anything too well.

Thanks!

Organikum

  • Guest
This DCM from paint remover is a mess.
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2004, 09:36:00 AM »
This DCM from paint remover is a mess. First to consider is what is everthing in the remover. The problem is that DCM usually is heavier than water but not if mixed with enough toluene for example. After your description you produced first a nice emulsion and then tried to distill this. Now you probably have done a steamdistillation of the DCM and toluene I guess.

Separate the two layers of your product.
Distill both again.
At one of the ditillations you should have coming over something at about 40°C - this will be your DCM.

Without knowledge of the exact content of the paint remover it is hard to tell more.
It should be not forgotten that most Paint-removers are especially composed in a way to hinder the DCM to evaporate easily - it is meant to remove paint not to refresh your lungs.
I made bad experiences with adding water at start - this fucked up everything. It was easy when I added lots of toluene or xylene. It depends on the composition I would like to say and cannot be generalized.
But if your paint-remover is gelantine like I would try adding toluene/xylene first and then to distill.

DCM doesnt dissolve PE, it attacks it over time. DCM attacks rubber very fast and dissolves PVC - for this reason I was astonished to read about the use of an unprotected rubberstopper in DCM distillation above. Must be another rubber than I have.  ;)

ORG


Shane_Warne

  • Guest
Distilling from the can proved to be a ...
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2004, 11:10:00 PM »
Distilling from the can proved to be a disaster when it was tried, because of suck-back. Poor heat regulation doesnt help either.

It works much better in a stoneware vase, but you should still watch it.

the distillate seems to always turn out slightly cloudy (but clear) compared to the water layer.

If you ramp up the heat too much the gel comes over decomposed and brown DCM results.

Th tins that distill best are the thin smooth pouring liquid gels. The thick sludges suck.

notta234

  • Guest
content of different adhesive removers
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2004, 01:54:00 PM »
SWIM saw four different types of the adhesive remover. Any idea which contains the most DCM? SWIM looked on the companies website, and the MSDS for that product (not totally specific) stated a content of anywhere from like 30% to 60%. The MSDS is located at

http://www.bixmfg.com/tjmsds.htm

. All 4 kinds SWIM saw were a type of the "Tuff Job" catagory. I hope I am allowed to post these names and the link... if not... I'm sure somebody will tell me.

SQUIDIPPY

  • Guest
Notes on DCM; Any stripper with DCM (Methylene
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2004, 12:00:00 PM »
Notes on DCM;
Any stripper with DCM (Methylene Chloride), will work. The best brand to use is by far the most common brand.  Something to do with music,…”Jazz company” or something like that.
The thicker “paste”, types need to be mixed with equal volume of H20. And they are frankly kind of a pain in the ass. There is a new type that is a liquid stripper. It is the most desirable and contains in excess of 50% DCM.
See below for procedures. First we need to know some things;





1.1   1.1 What is Dichloromethane
 
   Dichloromethane (DCM) is a colorless non-flammable liquid. It does not occur naturally and is produced in high amounts by chemical companies. DCM was introduced as a solvent over 60 years ago to replace more flammable alternatives. Due to its high toxicity, recommendations have been issued by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to reduce its production. Luckily most producers of this chemical have complied and the production of this chemical has been continuously reduced in the past years.

   Though it is biodegradable in soil, it is not readily absorbed in soil, and either volatilizes into the air or sinks through the soil, into the ground water table. Exposure to this substance has been shown to result in ill health. As a result it is a dangerous substance to be dealt with and should be slowly moved out of the industry.
 
   DCM is chiefly used an active ingredient in paint removers (30%), both for consumers and the industry, where it can be present in concentrations of up to 80% [US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)]. Other common uses today are: adhesives (16%), aerosol and coating (11%), foam manufacture (10%), chemical processing (9%) and metal cleaning (8%) [Halogenated Solvent Alliance, Inc.].  It is also used in chemical processing, where, among other uses, it is used to extract unwanted substances from foodstuff. It is very efficient, organic, liquid and inflammable. These qualities and applications have made this substance a favourite among chemical companies. It can be produced in large quantities, and once acquired it can be applied to various needs.
 
 
1.2 Facts and Figures
 
[   The following information is from the EPA   ]
 
CAS No.                       75-09-2
 
Common Synonyms      MC, dichloromethane,
                                 DCM, methylene bichloride,
                             methylene dichloride  
 
Molecular Formula                CH2Cl2               
 
Chemical Structure                   
                          
                                        
                                      
 
Physical State                   colorless liquid    
 
Molecular Weight                 84.94g               
Melting Point                        -958C    at 101.3 Pa           
Boiling Point                     39.758C at 101.3 Pa (that’s  103.5 in F
Water Solubility                 1.32 x 104 mg/L at 208C 
Density                             1.3255 g/mL  
Vapor Density (air = 1)      2.93                    
 
Flash Point                         Nonflammable            
 
Odor Threshold                   214 ppm (in air)        
Conversion Factors               1 ppm = 3.48 mg/m3;
                                1 mg/m3 = 0.288 ppm     
 
 
2. Industrial Processes                                           
 
 
DCM does not occur naturally and is produced in large amounts by two main chemical companies in North America: Dow Chemicals, Occidental Chemicals and Vulcan chemical.
 
DCM and tri-chloromethane (TCM) are simultaneously produced at the same facilities, since the production of DCM produces TCM in reasonable large amounts. When producing DCM it is important to maintain a high percent of excess methane in proportion to the chlorine to achieve optimal yield and to avoid unwanted temperature fluctuations. The high excess of methane (CH4) also minimizes the concentration of un-reacted chlorine in the finished process. In addition a very high level of purity with respect to CH4 has to be observed. Much CH4 is acquired from secondary processes in other chemical facilities as well distillation of natural gas using the Linde process.
 
 
2.1 The Hoechst Process for DCM
 
The Hoechst’s process, introduced in 1923, is still the most common method used today with the mere addition of new technology but without any modifications of the actual process. CH4 gas and monochlormethane (MCM, recycled from the previous reaction) is brought into contact with chlorine (Cl2) gas and both gases are pushed into a reactor in which constant gas circulation is sustained. The reactor temperature is maintained at 350 – 450 8C (by proper choice of Cl2 – CH4 /MCM ratio) and the reaction is conducted adiabatically.  The fully reacted mixture and the resulting hydrogen chloride is then cooled and washed out with dilute hydrochloric acid in the form 31% hydrochloric acid. Finally the last traces of HCl(aq) are washed away by the use sodium hydroxide and the products are largely compressed, dried, cooled, and allowed to condense. Methane and gaseous MCM are recycled. The liquid is distilled by high pressure into its principal components – MCM, DCM, TCM and Tetrachloromethane (TetraCM). This process delivers generally about 70% DCM by weight. Most of the remainder is TCM with some MCM and trace amounts of TetraCM.
 
 
3. Biodegradation Pathway                                       
 
As mentioned above, DCM is very volatile and hence does not stay in surface waters very long. Degradation therefore occurs in the atmosphere. Aerobic and anaerobic methylotrophic bacteria (methylotrophic microorganisms are bacteria and fungi which are growing on carbon compounds which are more reduced than CO2 (i.e. have less oxygen), [Heinrich Klein, Brunel University, Britain]) utilize DCM as an energy and cabon source. This transforms DCM into inorganic chloride and formaldehyde (University of Michigan Biocatalysis/Biodegradation Database). These bacteria use dichloromethane dehalogenase as an enzyme to catalyze DCM. Inorganic chloride is not biodegradable and formaldehyde is a major metabolite in the growth process of methylotrophic bacteria. Below is a graphical depiction of the first process. Methylophilus sp. DM11, Pseudomonas sp. , Hyphomicrobium sp. DM2, and  Methylobacterium sp. DM4 are the organisms that initiate the above described process.
                    
 
4. Envioronmental effects                                                               
 
DCM enters surface water streams from industrial effluents and can reach groundwater through underground injection and through soil. Dichloromethane occurs in soil due to landfills in which dichloromethane containers have been deposited. It occurs in the air through evaporation from surface waters, surface soils and from evaporation during use. Air is inhaled by humans and animals, and surface water is directly used by animals
 
Environmental studies have shown that dichloromethane is highly toxic to humans and animals. In air it has a half life of approximately 130days [EPA], which is a long time when considering the quickness with which DCM works. When inhaled it has harmful effects on the internal systems of animals and humans. It would do harm to the ozone layer, but it usually undergoes reaction with hydroxyl radicals to form a substance less harmful to the ozone layer and then continuous its breakdown into other chemicals.  In soil it could biodegrades slowly, but this sort of biodegradation in soil or subsurface soil only occurs in landfill sides where there are a substantial amount of microbial populations (i.e. methylotrphic). Generally its high volatility forces it to enter the atmosphere. Otherwise it sinks through the soil all the way to the groundwater. It is as volatile in water as it is in soil, but since the groundwater table does not have a layer of air on top, it remains in ground water. In water it hydrolyzes slowly, with a half-life of about 18 months [EPA].
 
4.1 Effects on humans
 
DCM is also very harmful before it is treated as a waste material. As mentioned above it volatilizes readily into the atmosphere. Hence, workers who use dichloromethane will inevitably inhale air contaminated with DCM. Since it usually occurs in high concentrations, and has a high vapour pressure, it poses imminent health risks to all users.
   .
DCM is readily absorbed by the lungs and gastrointestinal tract. Some skin absorption is also existent. DCM, once absorbed, travels to the liver, kidney, lungs, brains and muscles within one hour after inhalation according to animal studies reported by the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry [ATSDR]. The ATSDR further reports that within 48hrs dichloromethane expands its spreading to the testes and the epididymal fat.
 
In all known cases, exposure to DCM has been shown to affect the nervous system and internal organs in a negative way. It has been reported that direct contact has led to burns, and over exposure has led to worker death [EPA]. The Registry of Toxic effect of Chemical Substances [RTECS] reports that the lowest lethal dose for direct exposure is 357mg/kg, which translates roughly to 720ppm.
 
DCM metabolizes to carbon monoxide in humans, which in turn results in the formation of carboxylhemoglobin (COHb). COHb deprives the body of oxygen. Dichloromethane, while permanently damaging the human body by oxygen deprivation, leaves the subject initially in a state of euphoria, like a drug. Once the concentration of COHb increases, the subject experiences “psychomotor effects” (e.g. time – interval discrimination) and cardiovascular changes.
 
4.2 Effects on animals
 
Like most chemicals this substance was tested on animals to verify human reactions. Wild animals are not as exposed to this chemical as much as humans, as there are not many uses outside the urban setting. Nonetheless, groundwater and river water can lead to harmful digestion. Luckily most animals have a keener sense of smell and avoid liquid containing DCM. Animal studies in rats have resulted in liver damage and kidney damage after acute exposure (5-6hrs). After chronic exposure the same organs become the target (2yrs) [RTECS]. It also metabolizes to CO, resulting again COHb.
 
 
5. Conclusion                                                                                           
 
All studies have shown that dichloromethane is a dangerous substance to the environment not only as a waste product, but also during usage. Every worker who handles DCM endangers his health permanently. It is therefore necessary that strict laws be set in place. DCM should be moved out of the industry and replaced by less hazardous materials even at the loss of efficiency and profit. The extreme toxicity of DCM does not allow a truly save maximum contamination limit. Any maximum contamination limit can be broken by careless storage or accidents. DCM works fast. Before anyone knows what exactly had been spilled, workers can be exposed to lethal amounts of DCM. Deaths and illnesses are hardly worth profit and efficiency, especially in a legal system that allows workers’ families to sue anybody that can be held responsible. DCM should therefore be discontinued for both, hidden economical reason and apparent environmental reasons.



Doing a bit more research we will find the BP’S of some other potential chemicals;

DCM            39.75 degrees C  (103.5 in F)
Methanol       64.7 degrees C (148.46 degrees F.)
Toulene         111 degrees C (231 degrees F).

Notice the unusually low BP of DCM. The key to a good distillation is keeping a very low temp. It can be distilled out of the can quite easily. A rubber stopper can be used. (DCM attacks polys and synthetics) Rubber stoppers are partly synthetic, but mostly organic. They will soften and degrade but only very slightly. A #6 stopper is what you’re after. Copper tube, works, as well as any other metal. S/D, then goes into his condenser with another rubber stopper. Any ghetto setup will work as well, as long as one doesn't use any poly or synthetic materials. If you can’t locate the correct rubber stopper then, use rubber tape, found in the electrical dept. of your local hardware store.
DCM , is very slightly soluble in H20, upon distillation it will have a cloudy appearance. Let it stand and it will clear in a few hours. To make sure it’s moisture free, pour it through a thick layer of absorbent material, filters or paper towel, works well.
Store in airtight container.
Other notes; make sure that you add a bit of H20 to your receiving flask to keep your evaporation rate, down.
S/D has been using this method for several months and will tell you that it’s tried and true to produce reasonably pure, anhydrous DCM.For handling chemical resitant gloves, or Nitril disposable are needed.
S/D from a Gallon of liquid stripper is yielding a half gal DCM



http://chem200e.tripod.com/dcm.html


http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm