Holy Shit! I Got's an Ider! Pleeze Help Me With ?s

[PrimoPyro]

Hello.  

I got an idea that uses phenylalanine, and now wish to have more knowledge regarding its purchase. I have UTFSE of course and didn't find anything, which is wonderful, as I was searching for text regarding claims of it being suspicious or watched.

Would it be suspicious if someone purchased a kilogram or two of pure phenylalanine powder or flakes, for non-consumption purposes of course, inside the United States? No pills. Pure media. No adulterants. You get the idea.

Also, I have noticed while searching on google, that most citations are for either l-phenylalanine or DL-phenylalanine. I know these are the optical isomers. I assume DL-phenylalanine is a racemic mix? I see one can buy pure L, but I haven't searched in depth yet. Can you also buy pure D-phenylalanine? Is it suspicious?

I assume for a hypothetical reduction of phenylalanine to amphetamine, the isomers of the amino acid you start with are the isomers you end up with when amphetamine is produced, correct? I know there are synths on Rhodium's page, specifically the reduction using BOC and all that other stuff    and that is enantioprotective.

This is NOT a reduction to amphetamine by the way. It's different. But the isomer thing is the same. So to get D-amphetamine you need D-phenylalanine? Fuck me, that sucks.

So like I asked, would buying a kilo or two of pure d-phenylalanine be suspicious? What about a smaller amount?

Thanks for your help, and I welcome any answers and/or flames for being so jumpy, right now I couldn't care less, as long as I get my answer. Well Im off to search more. Thanks!  

EDIT: Ok, now Im slightly confused. The document on Rhodium's page

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/amphetamine.phenylalanine.html

claims in it's title, reduction of L-phenylalanine to dextroamphetamine, but in the first paragraph, it states the use of d-phenylalanine.

Which is correct/where is the error? With the page, or with my understanding of it?

                                                   PrimoPyro
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[aragorn]

hi pyro,

it´s definitely no problem to buy large quantities of phenylalanine SWIM has some good connections to supplement suppliers and bought pure phenylalanine a few months ago as supplement).
D-phenylalanine is probably a bigger problem cause it´s not used by the most supplement companys. Where SWIM live it´s only available in DLPA pain killers.

aragorn

[PrimoPyro]

Ok, I found the answer to my isomer question. As I thought, and as seems logical to me, the isomers correspond directly: D-phenylalanine to D-amphetamine, and L-phenylalanine to L-amphetamine.

It is therefore more advantageous to acquire the racemic mixture DL-phenylalanine than pure L-phenylalanine, for clandestine purposes.

So, let me rephrase my question: Would the purchase of pure D-phenylalanine be suspicious of drug manufacture? Let's make it a little more down to earth: SWIPP has hypothetically contacted a chemical company in the United States, and has inquired about purchasing phenylalanine, in "any" of its optical isomers.

The chemical company theoretically states that they carry such an animal, and ask if SWIPP has a preference regarding the isomer. They currently theoretically await SWIPP's reply. Would it be risky for SWIPP to inquire of purchase of D-phenylalanine as opposed to the other isomer, or a mixture?

Can't get any more specific than that!    You guys said I was too vague, so I've been working on fixing that.  

Thanks for the help guys! If this works, you will all benefit from it.  

                                                     PrimoPyro
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[halfapint]

Risky, no. Costly, yes. (l-phenylalanine is of biogenic origin, or by cost-competitive synthesis. Synthetic techniques of lowest cost will produce the racemic mix. So the d-isomer will cost most, by requiring a stereoselective synthesis.)
turning science fact into <<science fiction>>

[Elementary]

The conversion detailed on rhodiums page uses reagents that are not exactly bee friendly.

Converting the phenylalanine to phenylacetaldehyde, phenylethanol or phenylacetic acid for use in p2p manufacture may be a better route to these old amphet's                         
One day I'll understand everything !

[PrimoPyro]

This has nothing to do with the synthesis on Rhodium's page. I merely was using that as a chirality reference.

This synthesis is completely novel.

                                                    PrimoPyro
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[Elementary]

Well without giving us details on this secret novel idear, this discussion can only be useful on the amphetamine, etc front.

Please grace us bees on this novel thought train you are having, then we maybe able to contribute as you see fit !
One day I'll understand everything !

[PrimoPyro]

I greatly appreciate your offers for help, and yes I know I am declining the very thing I have asked for, but I am sorry to say that at this time I do not wish to disclose this information in public.

If it works, it is surely to be one of the most revolutionary syntheses of amphetamine (and now methamphetamine also, by the way) that has ever been thought up. If however it does not function, then it will be another failed idea cast upon the pile of others like it, and it's back to the drawing board again. If it fails, I will post the idea. If it succeeds, I will post the writeup.

But I want to be the pioneer of this. I'm sorry.

My questions have almost all been answered, and I think I can calculate the rest on my own. All that really need be done is acquire the materials and test test test the idea.

Thank you all.

                                                    PrimoPyro
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[PolytheneSam]

Are you thinking about the Kolbe reaction by any chance?
http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html

[PrimoPyro]

You bastard!    Erase that NOW!  

To say the least: Sort of. Not a general Kolbe reaction. As a matter of fact, thank you! I didn't know what this was called, I only remembered the entry from my chemical dictionary, and SWIM making ethane from acetic acid once with this method.

Yes, the idea is based on this reaction, but is not limited to it.

Because I did not want to reply, "What is the Kolbe reaction?", I searched for it and saw that it is what it is. I know know what to search for for data, and have already found some. Thank you!  

I assume you can shoot a hole through this now? If so, be my guest. I need input.

                                                   PrimoPyro
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[PrimoPyro]

If I can make that reaction work here, jesus do I have a methamphetamine-machine apparatus for you....
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[PolytheneSam]

I tried it about 17 years ago.  I ended up with a solution which had a lot of orange iron oxide floating (beause of the iron nails I was using as electrodes) around in it and it didn't have any fishy smell so I threw it away.  CHEM_GUY posted a lot of stuff about it.  We all know about it already. 
http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html

[PrimoPyro]

How did iron oxide get into it? I don't understand. I searched for this sort of thing.

I'm talking about electrolysis of acetic acid with phenylalanine of course. I assume you are as well, but I fail to see how iron oxide gets into the mix?

Please, indulge the ignorant this once, and enlighten me about this information that has so eluded me, and deluded me into thinking it was a novel idea.

                                                 PrimoPyro
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[PolytheneSam]

The electrodes were 10 penny nails.
http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html

[PrimoPyro]

Well, if that was the only attempt, I think the idea deserves another trial, with graphite or platinum electrodes.

SWIPP plans to start using the simpler experiment with glycine, of which the decarboxylated dimer is: ethylenediamine. This should be easy to determine if the zwitterion undergoes the reaction successfully.

I stress however, that my idea is not so limited to just this basic 2RCOOH --> RR reaction.

I may perhaps give a detailed summary before trial of the entire scheme once I have actual numbers to present, and not just x amount and y amount etc.

                                                  PrimoPyro
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[PolytheneSam]

Have you UedTFSE and read all the posts about it?
http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html

[PrimoPyro]

I had searched the best I could, but keep in mind I had no idea what this was called. I will search again.
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[PolytheneSam]

I got a lot of hits using Kolbe as the keyword.  WizardX explains a lot about the mechanisms.  I found one post of CHEM_GUY's where he says he was the first to post something about it.  I probably knew about it before him since I tried it almost 2 decades ago.
http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html

[PolytheneSam]

BTW, I found and xeroxed a good reference recently about the Kolbe reaction.  It came out of a book about carboxylic acids.
http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html

[PrimoPyro]

Well I am about to search for it, so once again I thank you for giving me the name. Unless specifically told WHY it will not work, I am oging to continue to believe that it will in the proper conditions, and am going to investigate much much further. And also, I am very proud of myself for thinking up this idea all by my lonesome.    Toot goes my own horn, yes, but so what? I'm happy, I have something new to learn about. I get bored easy, and times like this are truly exciting.  

I appreciate your help, Sam.

                                                 PrimoPyro
Vivent Longtemps la Ruche!

[PolytheneSam]

Here's a US patent class/subclass which includes Kolbe reactions.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=205%2F462&FIELD1=ORCL&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=pall

http://www.geocities.com/dritte123/PSPF.html