Author Topic: OTC Formic Acid Synth  (Read 4527 times)

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hellman

  • Guest
sorry,
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2002, 06:45:00 AM »
Results are in.

Reality can be a bitch sometimes,

I had a choice smoke of S.A bud today, so things
shouldn;t get so crayyyy-zzeeeeee,.

ok, here it is for you boys and girls,
Are there really girls here?-imagine that,.....

For Placeebo, and the Hive Collective,.

Thankyou Lugh for your post, It is a key in the production
and suucess of clandestine manufacter of formic acid,.

Here is how I First ran the reaction,.

200 grams of Oxalic Acid (hardware store) is funneled
into a standard Fruit juice bottle, 3cm diameter neck, volume 1 litre,(preferably clear here please),
Then 350ml of unheated glycerol is poured in,
A large 5 litre pot was filled with oil,
placed on the stove and is slowly heated.
The fruit Juice bottle is inserted in the middle of the heating pot of oil, (use a little caution here, the bottle will not explode if heated uniformly and foil is used around the upper top neck area,.)- and the exploding point is usually the lower bottom floor of the bottle. where the chance of thermal expansion is the greatest,.
Keep this covered by all means,.

A length of 1 metre of borosilicate tubing 1cm diameter, 1.5mm wall thickness,(You could use copper here I think*!)
I base this on Cuso4 as a good dehydrater,.

I made a bend in it with one of those micro oxy/propane burners that cost about $60.AUS from hardware stores,. they're so cool!
The secret to making a good bend is tho stopper one of the ends, and blow and even pressure on the other, as you are making the bend, and you fuck it up or are about to, you can reheat the area , and blow it out,.
Use constant rotation, of the tube or the burner, to give uniform heat. Glass can be bought from local suppliers in every state,. About $12.00 for a metre of this stuff,
When you get the hang of this, you can make whatever glass you want,- it's a passion all to itself,.

All scientific glassblowing in essence is the performing  of a few simple techniques, to achieve many different joints, bends and bulbs, I recommed this to anyone, there are some good book, and online sites, the theorty is very simple, and if you aer prepared to make a few mistakes,
your laughing,.


Ingredients were thouroughly swirled to mix ingredients into a honey like mixture,.
Heated bath slowly, until you could see the
efferefence begin, around 110-114, like it says,.
Cool,- increased the heating to the point  where
the condesation formed just over the lip of the glass bend of the air condensor and held tempereature there, and carefuilly watch for the end of the efference,.Slowly a putrid smelling clear liquid came over at about one to two drop per second,.(The tube ran down to the floor into an ordinary jar,.)
Where ~120ml of apparently formic acid remained in the flarsk(correct spelling) ;)

The pot was taken of the heat, the level marked on the fruit bottle with a texture.
Another 200 gms oxalic was added to the flask,
and the pot brought to temperature again, where effernece
again commenced, a further 125ml of returned,.

A total of ~245 ml were obtained in less than 3 hours,
So to answer your question, why not,.

I also did this rection in a petrol can with a copper tube, outside with a mini gas burner,.

I contemplated doing this in a plastic thick walled vessel, in a warm water bath, with a household vacuum cleaner,.
The vacuum cleaer would have had two inline air filters, one a Sodium Hydroxide bong,  the other a water bong.

The reation is pretty much tame, but i don't recommend doing like me unless you have to,
Have it niocerly set up so you can add more oxalic easily
and have it completely seled because the reaction really stinks,.

Chromic- peroxlaic, start a new thread for that please, straight away, ;)

I hope this is enough for you all
Goodluck





IQ is the rate of logic, as Wisdom increases logic, fear & compromise decrease to reveal objectivity

goiterjoe

  • Guest
oxalic acid
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2002, 08:02:00 AM »
did you use the powdered bleach cleaner as a source of oxalic acid or the boat hull cleaner product?

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

foxy2

  • Guest
my local hardware has oxalic acid, says its ...
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2002, 02:10:00 AM »
my local hardware has oxalic acid, says its pretty pure, as deck bleach/cleaner.  Basically looks like the purity you would expect from hardware acetone ect.

Read and Listen!!! 

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/index.cfm


Captain_Mission

  • Guest
somewhat off-topic...
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2002, 12:47:00 AM »
This is from an old (1800's) chemistry book. This synth looks stupidly low yielding, but provides an alternative to the route mentioned above by lugh,and in just one step, so it might be an option if you just want the allyl halogenide(or, for some reason, can´t get oxalic acid).


 In a 800ml flask are placed 400g of glycerol, 36g of red phosporus and 12 g of iodine. A donward condenser and an addition funnel are mounted on the flask. The mixture is warmed until fluid and agitated to render it homogenous. It is then heated to boiling. The reaction starts and a small amount of allyl iodide distills over. 88g of iodine are placed in the addition funnel, and the first portions of distilled product are added to help dissolve iodine. This solution in then slowly added to the reaction mixture. From this moment on the reaction becomes faster. In order to dissolve the rest of the iodine to be introduced, one keeps adding the distilled product to the funnel, until all the iodine passes to the flask. The temperature is kept so as to mantain a calm boiling until no more allyl iodide distils over.
   The product thus obtained is crude allyl iodide,colored red by iodine, wich will have to be purified. It is agitated in a separatory funnel   with 6 times it´s volume of water to wich was added a small amount of strong NaOH solution. This decolorizes the liquid and dissolves the small amount of allyl alcohol formed in the reaction. The dense, now colorless liquid is decanted. It consists of allyl iodide, mixed with a small amount of isopropyl iodide. 
    If one wants to separate the  isopropyl iodide, the product is then dissolved in alcohol, and this solution strongly agitated with mercury, in a closed flask. The allyl idide gives, with mercury, a colorless, crystaline, compund C3H5HgI, wich is recovered and crystalized from boiling alcohol. This compound is treated, in alcoholic solution, with the calculated amount of iodine, to transform te mercury into HgI2. The allyl iodide is then distilled, washed with water and dried.
        The 100g of iodine, used as it was said , yield 125g of dry allyl iodide, still mixed with a very small amount of allyl iodide.

hellman

  • Guest
sorry guys, i been busy,
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2002, 09:25:00 AM »
If any one wonders why I didn't post the formic synth, it is because, some of you sadden me greatly, and i have been busy, I have written it up in a complete precise followable form, i promise you that if anyone here genuinely gives a shit about this formic synth, then you will be extremely happy,
I have rewritten it in itensive detail,.
I spent fucking ages on it, but i got disheartened, and sidetracked,.

I have the file on my brother fucking computer, 20kms away,
You will see it soon,.

my apologies again,

I have included many many superb things in the final write up,
I have passed on glassblowing experience, and everything needed to make the proceedure sa painless as posible,.
Even though i realize i am pissing in the wind, as acetic acid has arrived,
I still feel that this is important to all of us here,
For those who require this info urgently,

just pm me,.

seeya sweethearts,.

Love you rhodium-smlie!!!!!
P.s rhod's, i have kept my promise,the rest will also come,

thankyou, :)

IQ is the rate of logic, as Wisdom increases logic, fear & compromise decrease to reveal objectivity

ballzofsteel

  • Guest
Goiter
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2002, 02:18:00 PM »
I wouldnt know where,
But Ive read somewhere recently about the electrochemical
oxidation of methanol to formaldehyde(various catalysts/conditions) in an electro-cell and then with the introduction of H202/Fe(III) basic(ph13)conditions
the reaction stops at formic acid.

Bit more complex than that,but does seem to be clean and relatively otc way of doing it.Just those membranes to worry about.