Author Topic: Route Dilemma: KI vs NaBr  (Read 2228 times)

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Daphuk_up

  • Guest
Route Dilemma: KI vs NaBr
« on: May 17, 2003, 05:54:00 AM »
SWID's intention is to produce MMDA from myristicin.  The dilmma he has is this:

He has KI and NaBr.  Should he:

A.  Brominate in DMSO, and try the Finkelstein swap even though he has KI instead of NaI, which seems to have a lower solubility in acetone (the KI does), and proceed with the ethanol/hexamine/delepine reflux?

B.  Iodinate in DMSO (which according to SWID's understanding results in lower yields), then proceed to the delepine?

C.  Brominate in DMSO, skip the iodination and hence the delepine, and proceed with amination via ammonia saturated methanol?

D.  Mix the KI, sulfuric, DMSO, and myristicin in a styrafoam cup and chug it before it melts, hoping his magical stomach lab makes a hallucinogen out of it shortly before it kills him?

E.  All of the above.

Any thoughts, opinions, facts, suggestion, etc would be ever so greatly appreciated.  The biggest priority is probably yield in this scenario.  Again, many thanks. ::)


Rhodium

  • Guest
Myristicin -> MMDA
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2003, 10:58:00 PM »
If you do have isolated myristicin from any essential oil (it is hard to separate from other allylbenzenes in the oils, fractional distillation is a must!), then be careful with it, and do not waste it on trying to get the Delepine reaction to work, it is not suitable for secondary halides. See the following thread for example:

Post 389663

(Osmium: "The delepine might be all fine and dandy for ...", Methods Discourse)


I believe that you should process it as in any of the following procedures:

Post 361176

(endo1: "Safrole bromination variation", Methods Discourse)

Post 243297

(foxy2: "Re: Notes on bromination of safrole", Methods Discourse)


The bromomyristicin is then converted to azidomyristicin and finally reduced:

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/mda.azide.html


Daphuk_up

  • Guest
Pardon SWID if he isnt coherent in this post,...
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2003, 12:34:00 AM »
Pardon SWID if he isnt coherent in this post, he has been up an unusually long peroid of time.  Thanks again Rhodium for your clear advice.  The first two threads you linked to are in fact the two main ones SWID has been studying from, after reading the entire "chloro/bromo/iodination of safrole" compilation.  Indeed, the route he has decided upon is the bromination with NaBr in DMSO, and after twelve hours the solution has gone from clear to yellow to greenish-yellow to a sort of puke yellow-red-slightly green color.  Since SWID does not have mechanical stirring, and has to make do with occasional swishing or stirring with a glass rod, it is his intention to let the contents of the vessel react for a full 24 hours before clean up and extraction.

As for the amination, that method looks excellent, however most of those chemicals are completely beyond SWID's means.  He has no chemical supplier of any sort, has not invested his full time, attention, and money to the NaBH4 synth, (intends to look up sodium azide synth methods, it is probably doable), and certainly does not have access to hexadecyltributylphosphonium bromide.

SWID also guitily admits that his myristicin is likely not 100% pure.  Although he did a vacuum fractional distillation of the oil (everything came over between 70 and 120), the fraction he is using is most everything above 105.  This probably includes apiole, eugenol, and myristicin, along with other trace oils.  SWID figures since he intends to vaccum fractional distill the bromomyristicin after bromination, this is acceptable, and hopefully a fraction can be captured which also contains bromoapiole.  Obviously this is not properly sceintific or concise in method.

Again, SWID greatly appreciates your help.  With all the above having been said, what route of amination would you suggest now?

Edit: An addendum, the reason (excuse) for the use of impure precursor is the small amount of oil available for fractional distillation (less than 100mL).


Rhodium

  • Guest
Don't let long chemical names hinder you
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2003, 09:35:00 PM »
certainly does not have access to hexadecyltributylphosphonium bromide.

You probably don't need to, as any reasonably good PTC should work just fine. Polyethyleneglycol (PEG) is a perfectly good substitute, and many claims that fabric softener is too, see

Post 427515

(moo: "OTC fabric softener phase transfer catalysts", Novel Discourse)
.

Daphuk_up

  • Guest
ahh, SWID sees
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2003, 10:01:00 PM »
SWID was under the impression that PTC were hard to come by reagents.  Thanks for the info, SWID is off to do some more research.  :)