Amphetamine or Methamphetamine

[raffike]

Ok,let's say raf has some unknown stuff said to be speed and he wants to know what it might be.Probably racemic amphetamine or methamphetamine and lots of inert stuff.
How would one make sure substances and amounts?Meth and amph are both amines so A/B is no-go but it could be used to get rid of non-nitrogen containing molecules.A friend who could to GC analysis is in jail for meth manu and will be there few  years more.Is there possible to separate different amphs with TLC and is it possible to determine quantities too.Raf trust his meth but decided to see what speed is flowing currently on the streets.GC apparatous is very expensive and raf doesn't feel like sending a sample to some official analytical lab and he doesn't have any friends learning analytical chemistry(he's dad was but 23 years ago).
For those about to synth,we salute you

[java]

meth doesn't go in ether and amph does so wash in ether dry filtrant and weight and find out how much amph you have and then remove ether and weight the meth , this will give ou some idea of what you have there may be inmpurities that go in ether and some that do so for that must do destillation to remove only product and remaining are impurities  ,this will give ou and idea of what's in there.

[Osmium]

Meth freebase will dissolve in ether, just like amphetamine freebase. And meth hydrochloride will be insoluble, just like amphetamine hydrochloride. You can't´tell them apart by solubility.

> Is there possible to separate different amphs with TLC

Yes of course. You definitely can identify them with TLC. But you cannot separate any usable quantities with TLC. You could use preparatory column chromatography to separate them in gram quantities, but you will need lots of solvents and absorbent.

> and is it possible to determine quantities too.

Not with TLC.

First you have to remove the bulk of the cuts, e.g. by using solubility differences. That's also pretty much the only way to determine purity, by dissolving the drug and leaving the cut behind, separating them and comparing the weights.

Do you have pure meth.HCl to compare it to the substance in question? To identify the drug you bought, look at the crystals under a microscope and compare them to authentic meth (best crystallized from the same solvent as the unknown drug). If one of the drugs is a hydrochloride and the other one a sulfate or other salt this will not work!

Next step is marquis reagent, as far as I remember meth and plain amphetamine produce different colours.

A nice but unfortunately seldom used method is melting point. Measure the melting points of your unknown drug, that of meth and that of an intimate mixture of the two. You can measure them all at once by placing milligram quantities in glass capillaries or small test tubes and heating them in an oil bath while observing the temperature. If the mixed melting point is depressed then the compounds are different, if it is close to the melting point of the pure compounds then they are most likely identical. Again, this only works when both drugs have the same anion (chloride OR sulfate, won't work with chloride AND sulfate!) You also can be sure that your drug is pretty pure if your melting point matches that of a literature reference.

And then there's TLC. This will tell you exactly what drug it is, by directly comparing it with an authentic sample, or using a solvent system that produces known Rf values for different drugs.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

[raffike]

A sample will probably contain either amph or methamph,and very rarely may contain both in significant amounts(for example in 50/50 ratio,like sometimes MDMA is mixed with meth).Now he must get some street shit.They ask so much for it that it makes raf sick(he could make pure racemic meth 10 times cheaper the dealer asks for his shit).1 g of sample should be enough for ghetto analytical experiment.An careful A/B should get amines out nicely.Ooops but raf has never bought any speed from streets ,maybe a friend could buy raf some.
For those about to synth,we salute you

[MK_801]

I've never heard of amphetamine and methamphetamine being mixed and sold together. I've only ever come across meth in the US, and amphetamine in Europe. How common of a practice (mixing the two) is this?

[dwarfer]

Extract ephedra, and you get it all..":<)
dwarfer

[phase_dancer]

Next step is marquis reagent, as far as I remember meth and plain amphetamine produce different colours.


I've always found it impossible to distinguish between amphetamine and meth with Marquius. I would suggest identifying both as amines with marquius, followed by simons reagent to pick the secondary (meth)

[12345x]

the easest way to seporate
amped from meth is to exploit
the difernces in the freebases ph
ie amped is a stronger base "by 10 times "
then meth is
just like dimethylampedamine is weaker then meth
"has to do with carbons sheilding the amino atoms
pair of unboned electrons "
   and when basing out using  limiting amounts
of a strong base "lye, Koh,etc"
 the meth will being the weakest base
come out first.
"within limits of your the ratios of the two of course"

if you want compleat seporation...
 find a base
thats a stronger base then base meth is
but is a weaker base  then base amped is

then you can with that compound
base out all your meth without
basing out as much as a microgram of the amped.

this works just like if you base a mixture of meth
and eped with bakeing soda.
the baking soda being stronger then the ephed
but weaker then the meth "as a base"
 will only base the eped
no matter how much you use,the meth will stay water
soluble.

you just need to find a compound with a Ka bettween
meth and amped.
that is water soluble
 and then use that to pull all the meth
leaving all the amped in the water.

then use lye to the remaining water to pull out all the amped

and there is....
 a big deference "the ph"
 between freebase meth
and freebase amphed."

but hell back in the days we would add 1 part phenylpropanol amine "preban dexatrims"

to 2 parts of those contact type looking 120 mg time relese sudafeds

as the 33/66 amped to meth mixture when finised was the bomb!

even if it never did cristalize in the pan.
the meth got you high

and the smaller amount of amped in it would add
a nice wire kick to keep you up.
so you could enjoy it.


   groovy man
outa site

[Osmium]

> the easest way to seporate amped from meth is to exploit
> the difernces in the freebases ph ie amped is a stronger
> base "by 10 times" then meth is just like dimethylampedamine
> is weaker then meth

If there is a big difference at all it should be the other way round. Meth is the stronger base.
And "stronger by 10 times" is definitely not enough for easy separation, the difference will by just 1 pKa unit (which is logarythmical).

> if you want compleat seporation... find a base thats a
> stronger base then base meth is but is a weaker base
> then base amped is then you can with that compound
> base out all your meth without basing out as much as a
> microgram of the amped.

I wish it was that easy.  

> this works just like if you base a mixture of meth and
> eped with bakeing soda. the baking soda being stronger
> then the ephed but weaker then the meth "as a base" will
> only base the eped no matter how much you use,the meth
> will stay water soluble.

Bullshit.


I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

[Bandil]

Just found this old thread by accident, and had an easy test up my sleave. The Hinsberg test can distinguish primary and secondary amines easily.

The test uses benzenesulfonyl chloride in an alkaline aqeous environment. Make a slurry of the benzenesulfonyl chloride in the aquous base (it's insoluble). Add the amine(amphetamine / methamphetamine) and stirr. The salt of the amine is ok to use, if enough base is present to deprotonate it. Because of the insoluble nature of benzenesulfonyl chloride, the reaction will proceed slowly.

If a primary amine is added, everything will dissolve, because an acidic hydrogen is present on the nitrogen (which has reacted with the benzenesulfonyl chloride). The acidic hydrogen makes everything soluble in the alkaline environment. A secondary amine will give a precipitate, as no acidic hydrogen is present.

Thus it's possible to distinguish primary and secondary amines quite easily.

Read more

here

(http://www.cem.msu.edu/~reusch/VirtualText/amine1.htm)

Regards
Bandil

[Chimitant]

If you don´t have a mixture it is quite easy to differentitae between those two. Marquis will only tell you that you have amphetamine/methamphetamine when the color changes from orange/red to brown. A second test known as the nitroprusside test will give an indication that you´re dealing with a secondary amine when it becomes dark blue. This will also be the case when testing MDMA! Together with the previously mentioned marquis test (will give dark blue to black for MDMA) you have you´re answer. BTW plain amphetamine will give a salmon color with nitroprusside. If I recall well the test contains a aqueous solution of sodium nitroprusside with a sodium carbonate solution. I´m not sure what the concentrations have to be be, but you will be able to find it out yourself with the information I have given...

Edit: The test is also known as Fiegel´s reagent (sodium nitroferricyanide)