Author Topic: Making myself sick  (Read 15641 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

geezmeister

  • Guest
Making myself sick
« on: May 13, 2004, 05:25:00 PM »
A recent extraction of pseudo HCl from 120's was reacted with hypo acid made from sodium hypophosphite and worked up in my usual fashion. Gassing the collected nonpolar solvent prodced a less than spectacular yield of what appeared to be good product, which had most of its usual effect when first ingested. I was quite fresh when my lady and I first did a sample. I did note at the time that it did not have the euphoric effects I look for, but it seemed to have the other aspects of my favorite drug.  I set about to recyrstallize the product the next day and from that process wound up with only a gram of diamonds, about two grams that had the texture and appearance of refined sugar, and another gram or so of white flakes, almost like powder. I had almost a twenty percent loss of weight in the process--very unusual in my book.  The powder was trashy, and had little if any effect. It was, in fact, worse than the gassed and acetone rinsed product I sampled before. The sugar-like crystals not only did not smoke cleanly, they tasted horrible and gave only a  minor effect that lasted only a short while. It also did not burn as cleanly as the inital gassed product and had none of the potency of the original product.  The diamonds, which I had reserved for a deserving friend to sample, were invaded last to determine whether these were the real deal at all.

Ahhh the diamonds! They burned cleanly in the pipe and on foil, they rerocked immediately, the smoked without any taste at all. And did nothing to me. Period. Of everything obtained after the crystallizing process, this was the purest and the weakest. After recrystallizing, I could not get a good buzz from any of the dope I had made, despite having been able to get a decent buzz from the orginal pile of meth.

Unbelieving, my lady and I began to chase the high we so much prefer to experience, and wound up consuming all the remaining goods over the period of probably thirty six hours.

It has taken me four days to recover from the experience. My mind became unfocused, I could not think clearly, could not concentrate, could not link attention spans without struggling, and was completely unproductive. I was edgy, a little agitated, my mood was depressed to the extreme (well, DUH!), I battled nervousness, nausea, and tiredness, wound up sleeping about sixteen or more hours a day, and generally felt lousy. I had gastrointestinal distress, nausea, extreme flatulence, and indigestion.

I read Dwarfer's post on (-)(-) pseudo HCl and its effects and I'll be damned if it doesn't match what I felt to a "T."

I've noted very few reports in the stim forum proclaiming the quality of product produced of late. I'm curious if other bees have had any recent batches that were as miserable as the Geezmeister's last one.

Its one thing to have a failed or low quality batch. Its another one to make something that makes you ill, leaves you dazed and confused for a few days after ingesting it, and generally makes you not to want to do any more meth at all. I've been making meth from pseudo long enough, well enough, to know how to do it, and to know the difference between good dope and the shit I made this last time.

Is anyone else having similar experiences?

Should we suddenly be concerned that the gakks in the pills, or the pseudo in the pills, can leave you with something that isn't what you think it is, and does something to you you don't want to have happen?

If a new batch doesn't do to you what you expect and want it to do, be very wary of doing more of it chasing a buzz. That favorite buzz may not be there at all, and there may be some effects to ingesting the stuff you really don't care to experience.

I can't tie the phenomenon I experienced to anything other than the product of that reaction. My lady friend experienced similar physical sensations and effects, although not as pronounced, perhaps-- although it could be that her daily experiences and tasks do not highlight the lack of focus and the confusion the way my job does.

It is as if I made myself ill by ingesting my own product. Has anyone else found less than potent product from routine techniques lately? Anyone find themselves at a loss for the euphoric buzz? Anyone making themselves dazed and confused rather than focused and energized?

Or is it just me?

Something suggests to me it isn't just me. I think this is more common that we've been wanting to admit, and no one has wanted to talk about it. Whatever. It hit me broadside last week, and I, for one, am not afraid to bring the subject up.

And I didn't have a failed batch. I know what it is like to have failed batches, as I have enough that have failed. I had no pseudo left in the pile, and it did not have the taste, smell, or side effects I normally note with incomplete batches. Everything about this batch said it was done. It also says this isn't the meth I am used to making. Period.

Comments?

Similar experiences?


fierceness

  • Guest
Something similar has happened to SWIF.
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2004, 06:38:00 PM »
Something similar has happened to SWIF.  He got beautiful diamond shards as you describe after recrystalization, but after smoking a small bit and not getting a buzz, he didn't ingest any more.  He also didnt get any of the tell-tale signs of a failed reaction.

He thought it was just unreacted pseudo, so he re-reacted it and got beautifully pure REAL meth.  He attributed it to the heat not being on high enough during the 12hr process.  Could that be what you have done?

Osmium

  • Guest
Why don't you people learn to do TLC and ...
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2004, 08:00:00 PM »
Why don't you people learn to do TLC and melting point tests and be done with this kind of shit?


geezmeister

  • Guest
If I'd had this happen before
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2004, 08:11:00 PM »
If I had previously had an experience of this nature, I likely would have learned, Os.

This is the first time I recall having had this sort of thing happen in the last seven years-- or for that matter much longer. Its been a long time since I felt poisoned by illicit drugs. I have to go back to college days to remember the last time, and they were a long time ago.

I sure as hell didn't expect it this time. Nothing about the product initially suggested this might happen, and nothing about it suggested that it was anything other than a mediocre batch.  But it was.

So, TLC experiences or not, I thought I share it with the rest of the crew here, who might have the same experience, with or without TLC. Your point is noted, without offense.


dwarfer

  • Guest
Osmoid's good advice: given as usual
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2004, 12:04:00 AM »
The Fischer Johns melting point apparatus has just been
equipped with a replacement thermometer, and I hope to
get it actively pursuing this point soon.

=============

I do not think I've seen as complete a listing of the various melting points for the laevo material.  If it is already assembled, please point me at it.

============

In the reference Rhodium gave to the possible answer to
the conundrum, which was (if I recall) 60 g of pre-go in 20 ML methanol and 2 grams of sodium....

should the precursor be dissolved in the alcohol and tne sodium added?

How nasty is the reaction arising from plunging sodium into methanol??  How basic is it? like pH 25 or something??

=================


amalgum

  • Guest
Sounds like aziridine to me from ...
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2004, 12:27:00 AM »
Sounds like aziridine to me from undereduction.  SWIM has gotten back product that had the effects that you describe to a tee before, usually when he pulled the rxn to early.  Do you steam distill?  If so, it's almost certainly aziridine from undereduction.  That iodoephedrine will all cyclize to form that aziridine as soon as exposed to a hot lye solution. Also, someone above mad mentioned the fact that they got the same type of product back, then re-reacted it to get back beautiful product.  This also points toward aziridine, which would be reduced to meth also by HI.  The aziridine also seems to form in the reaction without base addition, and if pulled to early your product will contain large amounts of it.  Recrystallize some of it from 90% IPA.  Does it look kinda feathery? If so, aziridine baby!
If it happens again, re-react the crystals.  SWIM garuntess you'll get back good product.

ADDkid

  • Guest
Swig noticed that same effect too.
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2004, 12:34:00 AM »
Swig noticed that same effect too.  It started about 6 months ago.  Swig then realized that p-fed, solvents, and time did not prove worthwhile to ever try again.  Swig then made a promise to himself that he would never go that route again.  Even though Swig has not completed his alternative route due to lack of time and money, but he is close. In the long run swig believes this way will save time and money, and should produce a better quality of product(except for that fact that enantiomers will exist).  Swig hates the idea of not knowing what he is starting with, and starting from scratch seems to be more satisfying, and does not agitated his OCD problem.  It also seems a lot less risky.  Swig can do about a million things with benzyl bromide, but how many things can one do with a stockpile of p-fed? ADDkid

Red_Crown

  • Guest
Organic cascade
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2004, 01:07:00 AM »
I'm no doctor, but the variety and magnitude of symptoms seem to indicate things like mineral depletion, powerful urine acidification, etc.. - all intrinsic to a certain extent.   Many many things are possible..

Actually.. It does look a lot like.. No, almost absolutely: Metabolic Acidosis

(will research more..)

What are some by-products of the hypo reaction? Perhaps there's a new side rxn with a new gakk, (a RP/I rxn with the same precursor would resolve that possibility).
Or, might you have been food poisoned beforehand? (Eat any potnentially 'bad' food before you two set uP?).. Independant causes often complicate these situations, mainly because there's a tendency to make false attributions to 'unusual' aspects of the crystal.
(.. Ahh, the many times SWIR actually had a cold but was oblivious since all his symptoms were muted by the meth. So he felt 'normal', thus becoming angry that the crystal was weak-- and even 'contaminated' if he did have any symptoms of the illness left remaining. "Damn dirty dope!")

Unfortunately, it's in the nature of the drug to make you "super person" but not really..  Consequently, we tend not to know what it's feels like when some of the body's grumblings make it through that wall of omnipotence, and instead usually blame everything on the dope.    (In my opinion, anyways..)

Did you take any of the product orally at any point?
Did you ever recombine and take all 3 types of crystal at the same time?


unionpacific

  • Guest
geez whiz
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2004, 01:16:00 AM »
Have you used the same hypo with the same source of pseudo (120's) previously with success? when you vaporized it did it taste like anything remotely related to meth?

I like your "shulgin" like approach on a questionable batch, and your not just labeling it a failed batch but trying to solve the problem.


ADDkid

  • Guest
I'am no doctor either, but I believe that stim
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2004, 01:31:00 AM »
I'am no doctor either, but I believe that stim including MDMA help a lot with colds.  This result could be due to the more constant blood flow and maybe a higher production of white blood cells, I have been on stim. for most of my life and I only get sick when I take a break from the stim. for long periods of time. This is only my personal experience. I still wonder if stim. could replace some or most of the benfits of excerise.

Red_Crown

  • Guest
Makes sense
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2004, 01:58:00 AM »
If there was a toxin that induced serious acidosis, after the first sampling of your stuff, your blood and urine would be so acidic that any subsequent intake would  scarcely be absorbed before it was removed by the kidneys.

So you probably had the difficult symptoms of a real-deal case of acidosis + the bizarro psychological experience of taking meth and being sleepy 10 minutes later.  (This has happened to SWIR..)


Metabolic Acidosis
 

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic312.htm

)
"Ingestions - Salicylates, methanol, ethylene glycol, isoniazid, iron, paraldehyde, sulfur, toluene, ammonium chloride, phenformin/metformin, and hyperalimentation fluids. Acetazolamide, Cholestyramine."

Lactic Acidosis
 

http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic291.htm


"The most frequent cause of lactic acidosis is poor perfusion, which is induced by various shock states, overwhelming infection, or other causes of hypoxia. Medicinal and toxic causes of lactic acidosis are quite numerous, including acetaminophen, alcohols and glycols (ethanol, ethylene glycol, methanol, propylene glycol), almitrine, antiretroviral nucleoside analogs (zidovudine, delavirdine, didanosine, lamivudine, stavudine, zalcitabine), beta-adrenergic agents (eg, epinephrine, ritodrine, terbutaline), biguanides (phenformin, metformin), cocaine, cyanogenic compounds (eg, cyanide, aliphatic nitriles, nitroprusside), diethyl ether, 5-fluorouracil, halothane, iron, isoniazid, nalidixic acid, propofol, sugars and sugar alcohols (fructose, sorbitol, and xylitol), salicylates (eg, Reye syndrome), strychnine, sulfasalazine, and valproic acid."

- I would think aziridines qualify.
- PEG decomposition to ethylene glycol with heat when vaporizing product.  (*Not 100% sure)
- The solvents

...at least.


SHORTY

  • Guest
Same experience
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2004, 03:59:00 AM »
Geez, i have had the same experience at various degrees to what you described.  This has happened several times and i have yet to figure out why.  As you know i use sodium hypophosphite as well.  My best guess is that when making hypo this way the actual amount of pure hypo is lower than that of labgrade hypo.  I beleive alot of it gets oxidized to the "ics" during the process.  I beleive this to bee true because for the last several rxns i have been adding a little rp to the rxn and allowing it to reflux for 24 hours and haven't experienced this problem since. 

Before it was like each batch was a coin toss and if it wasn't good it was rereacted and normally would turn out good on the second time around.  Adding more hypo doesn't seem to bee the answer either.


Red_Crown

  • Guest
An obnoxious team, that is for sure.
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2004, 04:48:00 AM »
Perhaps the following are to blame:

Post 500905

(Prepuce: "Know the enemy: More data on polysorbate 80.", Stimulants)

 - The charming "toxic preservative"

Post 502710

(Rhodium: "PEG/Polysorbate HI depletion", Stimulants)

 - Then, HI in reaction cleaves the P80 to ethylene glycol and again to ethene & by-products, depleting 2 equiv HI.


SWIR is ignorant to the hypo mechanism exactly, but it seems as though the breakdown of P80 and ethylene glycol used up your HI before the rxn was complete, with a good portion of your meth stuck as the aziridine intermediate. .. Add to that the intrinsic toxicities of the P80 and ethylene glycol not completely broken-down by HI (mainly when smoked) + some assorted garbage from the ethene-producing step.

I'd guess you'd have been fine / a lot better had the diamonds been your first taste, and noticed the effect too.


..TLC is easy and sweet- for the peace of mind in knowing your reagents are pure, the ability to deduce which impurities are present and address them directly, and much much more.. It would all amount to a lot less time fucking around.    (Those were the days of yore for SWIR..)

wareami

  • Guest
Drawing on similarities....
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2004, 05:00:00 AM »
Testing never stops at UP-AWE-NITE® and with this testing comes varied results from attempts to arrive at uniform consistancies.
When I see things like this, it makes it easier to narrow down some causes that Ibee experiences first hand from a list of less than desirable results.
I'm more inclined to narrow this down to Geez's initial suspicion concerning additives to the OTC product itself and not the causes suggested by some that would indicate inconsistancies in Rxn Skill, cook timing, or technique.
Now it's possible they have manipulated the pfed molecule somewhat that would produce unreacted if the conditions weren't just right....But the nature of the HI/RP LWR has always countered this in the past when it was suspected originally.
I thought it was evident that the excess aziridines are cooked off given ample time @ proper temps.
This should rule out the aziridine factor I would think.
Ibee exerienced these undesired effects on a few occassions via the product obtained from the HI/RP LWR about two months ago. All signs of excess impurities were non-existant in the xtal or the work-up process.
Some titrated...some steam distilled.
In one batch, however, eudragit permeated the end result forcing a steam distill in order to obtain usable product.
The unpleasant bio-assay sides did not exist in that batch.
Since that time he experienced this "CRAP" dope.
He too blamed the feedstock and since the eudragit was ruled out he set out to stay away that source to avoid the unpleasant effects from what should have been "Good as It Ghets" and turned out to be pure crap in comparison.
How they are including this denaturant/adulterant is a mystery and it's well known that Geez and Ibee utilize different methods to extract and wouldn't run anything that a mere "thought" would indicate less than cleanfeed.
Now we have reports from two rxn types and two different extraction methods reporting the end result being something that we'd rather steer clear of.
If the Big D chimes in with a positive failure that utilizes Marvins birch....then I think we can safely conclude that it may just be the pfed itself as I'm sure Marvin extracts differently than Geez or Ibee!
A month ago some of the same stock was shelved that produced the CrapBatch and has since been revisited in an attempt to circumvent this Crap.
Various solvent assaults have been applied and several specimens are awaiting a final jacuzzi run to determine what's what.
This may be bigger than all of Us bees.

Now...since I'm relatively certain that Osmium skipped past all the Excessive Wanker Verbiage, I hope to get his attention down here with my Boldness ;)

Os: Could you please outline the bare minimum chems(easiest aquirable OTC) for one to start conducting TLC on these specimens.
I've read alot on the subject and always been stopped dead in my tracks with indecision about what it is exactly Ibee needs to go out and purchase.
You also mentioned in the past that column separation is in order here as a method of extraction.
I'm at a loss here in trying to convert this technique into a bulk type extraction method.
Ibee's game.
It's not that you're insight in the past has been completely discarded or intentionally ignored, but some of us beeslack the edgumacation in these more sophisticated areas....
In other words...when the pain gets great enough, we'll buckle down and listen to reason. :)
Thanx for your insight into pointing out our shortcomings and Thanks in advance for your guidance and suggestions in steering us from our ignorance to advanced technique and application :P
I'm beeing sincere!


Red_Crown...interesting stuff! I'm hoping we can factor all these things into arriving at a work-around cause the shit just aint worth making us all sick!

Thanx Geez for braking the Ice on this.
The greatest enemy we all face is the stemming of the flow of information and I really feel the opposition know this and are striving hard to achieve it.


Newton

  • Guest
Geez, sorry about to hear about your ...
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2004, 08:00:00 AM »
Geez, sorry about to hear about your dissatisfying results. If a bee with your experience has the described outcome of that reaction, it is time to be worried. From what SWIN assumes about that reaction, it was most likely some reduction inhibiting agent in the pseudo, which led to the formation of something else than meth, without leaving unchanged pseudo.

It is certainly possible to produce large clear shards as the result of a (pseudo-)ephedrine reduction, which are absolutely not meth. This has happened to SWIN on his third run: 36 hour LWR Rp/I/Eph, with 20 grams starting material. Complete workup with A/B, steam distill, recrystallisation, which finally yield the largest shards SWIN has ever produced. Melted clean, rerocked in the pipe- everything - just didn't get you high. :o  Later turned out that the thermostat at the oilbath was screwed, so the whole reaction ran at an oilbath temp of about 100°C, the flask contents presumably at 70-80 °C. D'oh. So SWIN had cooked a nice large batch of iodoephedrine/aziridine/whatnot- in the shape of the cleanest, largest shards he ever had his hands on. This batch however, was saved for later analysis.

Shorty-
Geez, i have had the same experience at various degrees to what you described.

Did you get further in refining the measurement of the melting point? Did you test these batches for the mp?

wareami-
Could you please outline the bare minimum chems(easiest aquirable OTC) for one to start conducting TLC on these specimens

What worked like a charm for meth freebase was the following solvent mix (which is as OTC as it gets):

9 parts methanol
1 part 6N aqueous ammonia
(by volume)
on silica gel sheets. Rf value is around 0.5, so you would have the spot of your favourite amine right in the middle - perfect. This was taken from a paper Rhodium posted some time ago- I think the exact Rf value given was 0.58.

Rhodium

  • Guest
Practical TLC basics
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2004, 08:25:00 AM »

xaja

  • Guest
Ok this could be left-field, but:
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2004, 10:23:00 AM »
How long has it been since you had it?

Because, SWIM has on occassion made stuff that was actually really fucking potent and after using some for about a day I got so out-of-it I became convinced there was something in my goodies. After using another gram or two trying to work out if it was the real deal, I started accusing people of messing with my gear and shit like this. Another few doses later I gave it to a guy I thought had put something in it, to 'get him back'. (Thought he had been jealous and fucked with my shit, so thought giving it to him would have really fucked him off). Anyway, cut a long story short, few days later realised there had been nothing wrong with the gear (this backed up by everyone who had tried it). Ok I was using waaay to much at the time and wasn't really with it, and I'm sure you know exactly what you are doing having been in the scene for a long time, but just thought I'd relay this story just in case...


Osmium

  • Guest
> SWIM has on occassion made stuff that was
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2004, 11:24:00 AM »
> SWIM has on occassion made stuff that was actually really fucking potent
> After using another gram or two trying to work out if it was the real deal

Yeah dude, really fucking potent shit!
Who fucking cares if your 'gear' is 'potent' when you use several grams in only one or two days?! Even if it was only 50% pure then it's still way too much! Period! Quit doing monster lines, it's not about who is man enough to snort a quarter gram at once!

Don't overdo it. Know your limits, and get regular sleep.


amalgum

  • Guest
xaja-SWIM agrees with some of your logic.
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2004, 11:30:00 AM »
xaja-SWIM agrees with some of your logic.  SWIM has been there and done that.  Times staying up so long spun out getting weird affects from made dope and blaming it on weird things.  That just means you need to get some sleep.  SWIM hasn't done anything in a month now (but is planning a new project soon harhar), and can look back with a clear head at all his experiences running the rp/I2 and realize that when you stay up for days on meth, sleep a few days, then stay up some more, things tend to get all mixed up and results from rxn's appear distorted (I hope I worded that right). 

Also sometimes, SWIM has had the experience when his tolerance seems to get to high (usually after long long periods of use), he'll make some shit then do some and it seems worse than the last batch.  You do more and more, but it just doesn't seem to do it.  Being gassy and having odd sleeping patterns are side affects of large meth dosages, and when you have a high tolerance you'll do a lot, certainly enough to bring about those side affects.

Newton-
  What did you use to visualize the plates?

Newton

  • Guest
What did you use to visualize the plates?
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2004, 01:05:00 PM »
What did you use to visualize the plates?

The developed plates were either stained with iodine vapors, or held under a UV-C light source (Merck silica gel sheets with UV indicator @ 254nm were used). Both worked fine.