Author Topic: BS benzo wacker questions.  (Read 6305 times)

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XrLeap

  • Guest
BS benzo wacker questions.
« on: July 02, 2004, 11:45:00 AM »
Hi,

FOAF of SWIX told SWIX about his dream on BS's Benzo Wacker Oxidation. He had 2 dream(s) on it.

In the 1st dream:
1) At T + 0:00
PdCl2 2g (purchased, lab grade, pink crystal)
p-Benzoquinone 150g (FOC from chem supplier, dunno what grade, darkish black sand with little shed of gold)
DMF 300 ml(purchased, lab grade, clear transperant solvent)
Distilled H2O 50ml (FOC from chem supplier)

Color of the mixture turned dark red(almost black) once p-benzoquinone was added.
These were mixed together(in a 1L RBF) and stirred with overhead stirrer for an hour before porceed to add safrole.

2) T + 1:00
Safrole 160g (obtained thru simple distillation @ 238 /vacuum distillation @ 110 and also crystallization, clear transperant like water with nice smell)
DMF 50ml(same batch)

Color of mixture remained same after addition of safrole. Dark red, almost black.
They were mixed together and dripped into the 1L RBF in 40min time.

3) T + 1:40
Finished addition of safrole.
Temperature was monitored constantly, 30 C at this time.
Color of the mixture remained same.

4) T + 5:00
Temperature was about 40 C. Peak.
Color remained same.

5) T + 6:10
Temperature returned to 30 C.
Color remained same.

6) T + 6:30
Hydrochloric Acid solution 1.5L (by mixing 50ml HCL to 1.5 L distilled H2O)

The hcl solution was placed in a 3 L beaker jar(plastic), the black/red mixture from 1L RBF was thrown into the 3L beaker jar. There were some black oily tar produced after the addition.

2x 100 ml DCM washes performed but no organic layer formed, even with help of torch light. So NaOH wash was not performed and the whole stuff was stored aside.


2nd dream:

All purchased chemicals were lab grade. Safrole was obtained thru crystallization using seed from simple distillation @238 C, crystal clear. Distilled water was thru same Chem supply too.
Only doubt was p-benzoquinone, it was FOC from the chem supply. It had no expiry date and the packaging was full of dust, although was packed nicely.

1) T + 0:00
PdCl2 2 g
DMF 300ml

Mixed and stirred for 30min using over head stirrer.

2) T+ 0:30
p-Benzoquinone 150g

Added to the DMF solution and further stirred for 1 hr. The solution turned dark red(almost black) once quinone was added.

3) T + 1:30
Safrole 160g
DMF 50ml

Premixed the Safrole and DMF, then dripped to the dark solution over 1 hr.

4) T + 2:30
Done with Safrole addition.
Temperature was 30 C. Constant stirring.

5) T + 6:30
Temperature @ 40 C, peak.
Color did not change.

6) T + 9:30
Temperature @ 32 C.
Color did not change.

7) T + 10:00
Stopped stirring, temperature @ 31C.

Flooded the safrole solution with 1.5L diluted hydrochloric acid solution(same as dream 1). A lot of black crude oil formed after the mix. Two distinct layers were observed, separated the organic layer. The aqueous  layer was washed with 3x 100 ml DCM.

The organic layer was then washed with 2x 150ml NaOH solution(prepare after addition of safrole after T+2:30), NaOH was salt like, 30g dissolved in 270 ml distilled water.

In the 1st NaOH wash(150 ml of NaOH solution), there were 2 layers formed(not very distinctive but visible with help of torch light, and the top layer was seen with shiny little powder with was thought to be hydroquinone.)  Top layer was poured off(kept aside). The bottom layer was then washed again with 150 ml of NaOH solution, this time no layer was formed. Strange thing was that in the first wash the top layer present was about 300ml which was more than the 150 ml NaOH poured in. There were a lot of black crude oil, around 100ml.

Question:
i) What is the real color of p-benzoquinone? SWIX believe that even black color one would give some yield. SWIX used TFSE and returned a lot of pictures and all claimed to be ok?
ii) For 2nd dream, can the solution(crude MDP2P) with NaOH solution be distilled even if there was not 2 layers formed?
iii) For the 2nd dream, why was there no different layers formed for second wash of NaOH?
iv) For 2nd dream, if the p-benzoquinone was not the right thing, could it raise the temperature to 40 C(without external heating)?
v) For the 2nd dream, would the crude black oil be of use to turn to MDP2P?

Some bees might have noticed that there is no questions regarding 1st dream, SWIX suspected that there was no MDP2P in it as the temperature returned to room temperature in 4.5 hrs.

Help will be greatly appreciated to answering the questions? thank you.


wolfx

  • Guest
Wacker questions
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2004, 02:25:00 PM »
The color of good p-benzoquinone is bright yellow. It is OK to be red, or green as well, that means it contains some color impurities but still good p-benzo.

The color of the Wacker is brown-yellow ( at least in my experience ) after the p-benzo addition, not very dark. It will become gradualy darker as you drip in the safrole, THEN it will be dark red, almost black. It might be not very uniform when you start, but it should be nice, homogeneous, after a few hours.

You don't WASH the oily layer with DCM, you EXTRACT it and COMBINE with the organic ( bottom, oily ) layer. I hope you have done that.

The NaOH washes make everything very dark. First one usually the worse. Don't shake the first one, just add. Next one, twirl a bit, don't shake hard. Third one you can shake hard, shall be more clear, easy to see the layers. If you can see nothing at all, take a good guess of the ammount it should be, separate the bottom, wash again. After you are done, combine all the WATERY layers ( NaOH washes ) and extract one more time with DCM. Then, combine everything. If you do this carefuly you will not lose anything.

I don't think you should try to distill that with the water/DCM and NaOH in, most probably will ruin everything.

XrLeap

  • Guest
SWIX thinks that the quinone has well passed...
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2004, 02:59:00 PM »
SWIX thinks that the quinone has well passed its shelf life but it could still have about 20% active stuff:) The color of p-benzo is dark-ish with very little shed of gold.

FOAF tried DCM extract of the NaOH layer and no layers formed.

The only thing SWIX learnt from here was NaOH is good to clean those black tar.:)


wolfx

  • Guest
Why no layers ?
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2004, 06:55:00 PM »
I don't understand why you don't see separate layers. You should get DCM/ketone/impurities on bottom, water+NaOH+DMF etc on top. Three possible explanations :

1) Layers too dark. Try to do what I have told you, guess how much it should be, add NaOH again, don't shake too hard this time. Also extract top water again with DCM, combine DCM + oily bottom, etc.

2) Emulsion. Wait for it to settle down.

3) Solids mixed in with product. Vacuum filter whole mess, use Celite if normal filter paper clogs.

You said it separated once, then no more, why ? DCM and water do not stay mixed.

homeslice

  • Guest
your p-benzo sounds more like quinhydrone
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2004, 07:36:00 PM »
your p-benzo sounds more like quinhydrone

make your own here

Post 473279

(Bond_DoubleBond: "Big Breakthrough for Benzo Bees", Methods Discourse)



XrLeap

  • Guest
thanks homeslice and wolfx:) i have gone thru...
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2004, 06:16:00 AM »
thanks homeslice and wolfx:)

i have gone thru some MSDS for quinone, and found that the property of this quinone looks like p-benzoquinone monoxime which has a CAS of 104-91-6, however, the packaging that SWIX saw has a CAS of 106-51-4. It showed clearly that the plastic container is p-benzoquinone. Could it bee degraded/oxidised or whatever term one calls it(chemical reaction took place) and p-benzoquinone became p-benzoquinone monoxime?

Can some nice chemist bees tell SMIX, so SWIX could save more expensive catalysts being wasted? Thanks.


homeslice

  • Guest
the color of p-benzo has been pretty well...
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2004, 12:52:00 PM »
the color of p-benzo has been pretty well discussed here and i think the conclusion was that with really high purity it should be bright yellow and as the purity level goes down it turns more greenish. dont use somethin that your sure isnt 100% bc then it makes it hard for ppl to help you when it fucks up. its just a bad idea.

swim personally wouldn't waste any safrole at all taking a risk with a key ingredient that he wasnt sure about


XrLeap

  • Guest
thanks buddy, for the reply:) SWIX will ask...
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2004, 01:21:00 PM »
thanks buddy, for the reply:)

SWIX will ask his FOAF to seperate the NaOH solution away which is thought to be around 170ml. and later proceed to do a vacuum distillation for ketone.


Propoxyfiend

  • Guest
PdCl2
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2004, 05:13:00 PM »

PdCl2 2g (purchased, lab grade, pink crystal)




The Pdcl2 SWIP has is a dark red, a reddish-brown, possibly not lab grade?




XrLeap

  • Guest
about 100g of not so pure not-ketone was ...
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2004, 11:34:00 AM »
about 100g of not so pure not-ketone was distilled, twice, under vacuum. the NaOH layer formed ice/cold solid in the freezer, was removed and washed with DCM before distillation took place.

using the same vacuum, safrole came @ 100C or below. there was suspected ketone coming over from 120C to 160C. The color started from yellow, to yellow with light green shade and blue. The distillation stopped when the color changed to dark brown. The 1 time distilled not-ketone color was blue.

however, SWIX's FOAF screwed it all up when pouring remaining liquid into the receiving flask with some dark coloured powder(suspeted to be hydroquinone). It was kept under freezer for a day, and the color turned nearly black/dark purple. It was then distilled again, under vacuum and the color received was orange.

SWIX tested the not so clean not-ketone with sodium bisulfite(saturated solution and shaked it with a few drops of the orange honey), immediately the not-ketone turned to yellow oil, on top of the bisulfite solution. SWIX tested again with bisulfite solution with methanol mixed in it, and there was some fat looking thing cover by yellow oil. The yellow oil on first test turned fat/bit crystal on the next day. Although it was not like how acetone tested with bisulfite, that gave crystal on the spot.

SWIX thinks that there is not-ketone(MDP2P) but highly contaiminated as double distilled gave orange color. Additional info was the ketone have some foul smell and also smell of safrole.

SWIX and his FOAF plan to distill 1 more time as bisulfite test was thought to be positive.

ps: the most difficult part was to strip away DCM with distillation, 2 impolsions happened:)

SWIX will try to test the 3rd time distilled ketone with his tounge for numbness.


XrLeap

  • Guest
The Pdcl2 SWIP has is a dark red, a ...
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2004, 11:50:00 AM »
The Pdcl2 SWIP has is a dark red, a reddish-brown, possibly not lab grade?



SWIX tried to purchase not lab grade pdcl2 from the chem supplier and was nicely turned down...... as price of the pdcl2 is fxxking high and it could be SWIX's perception of color not same with others. SWIX can only assume it was lab grade as told by the seller....

thanks for the clarification:)


wolfx

  • Guest
Looks OK
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2004, 05:23:00 PM »
The PdCl2 color looks OK to me. Dark rusty red color, it sticks and covers evertything with a thin layer. Wash your hands, don't let that in your skin.

Don't use vacuum to remove the DCM, just apply low heat ( 40 C ) at atmospheric pressure. Not worth getting your pump dirty  or wasting water trying to get the DCM out with vacuum. For me, it usually take 20 min or so.

Ketone color looks OK, don't screw up next time.

XrLeap

  • Guest
another dream happened:) this time distilled...
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2004, 03:42:00 PM »
another dream happened:)

this time distilled over ketone under atm pressure, from 252C to 280C. too bad, whole rbf was flooded with polymerized crap when cooled down. the product tatsed numb in the tounge. color was with some blue overtone, and became milky in fridge.


hsark

  • Guest
You cannot distill..
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2004, 04:04:00 PM »
You cannot distill ketone without a vacuum. And swim adds 400ml of NaOH solution for one or two washes of the dcm and ketone solution and never has probs with seperation or seeing the separation... But yes SWIM knows its overkill. But useing much more seems to make an easier separation to SWIM.. And the color of the PlCl sounds just right...


XrLeap

  • Guest
hehe:) swim just wanted to experiment with...
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2004, 04:25:00 PM »
hehe:)

swim just wanted to experiment with what he did for safrole, distill under atm pressure, little polymerized crap present but easy to clean.

but as for ketone by benzo wacker route, swim has to dispose another piece of chinese glassware.......

swim tried to distill his ketone under vaccum but a lot of bumping happened, and the whole flask was not visible at all. and there was some tiny little piece of black "unknown" flew over to his condensor and made the distilled ketone dirty(became dark purple). 3 x distill gave same thing, meaning it turned to dark purple after a day in fridge......

this new dream, all his lovely ketone just remianed the same after 2 weeks:) but this has a price to pay, yield and the dirty flask.

anyway, swim has wasted 200g of his lovely ketone now :( . will need to prepare one more time of the dirty benzo wacker oxidation. will plan to try NaI for purification this time.


hsark

  • Guest
Stirring heating plate?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2004, 02:55:00 PM »
Stirring heating plate? Buy one if you dont have one...They work better than Plain boiling stones... Plus if you take the temp real high youll get the dirty colored stuff coming over.. The redistillation should have fixed it. And diffrent colors are comon... But of couse it means impurites.. SWIM has seen blue, red, purple, green,yellow... You name it...


pooky

  • Guest
Bumping
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2004, 08:03:00 PM »
The reasons you are getting bumping are: there is water and/or DCM left in the raw ketone,and/or you are trying to vacuum when the temperature is too high.
When p is done the benzo washes,it goes in the freezer overnight(-20C)and in the morning virtually all the water has formed an ice layer on top.P then  distills the DCM off, then a little water with a cheapy diaphragm vacuum pump-but atmospheric would do as well.When the water stops coming, let it cool to less than what you expect it to come over at under high vacuum.


homeslice

  • Guest
Im pretty sure Zubrick's chem lab book he says
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2004, 11:33:00 PM »
Im pretty sure Zubrick's chem lab book he says in bold print in the distillin section that boiling stones dont work under vacuum. Dont got the book here tho so i cant verify it, but im pretty sure.


Pots

  • Guest
Use of Boiling Stones
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2004, 11:56:00 PM »
In Zubrick's book, page 177 under Vacuum Distillation notes he states that boiling stones are useless but he is only referring to when you are using a gas inlet tube.
    If this is going to be a long term hobby of yours I'd suggest u try to invest in doing everything properly and IMHO one piece of equipment that is a must have is a Heater/Stirrer hotplate.


Pots

  • Guest
Pots
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2004, 12:09:00 AM »
Are u using MM's recipe. If not I strongly suggest u check it out. His explanation of everything is very clear and concise and I'm sure it would lead you to a sucessful Wacker Oxidation result.