Aquisition of acetic acid

[Scorpion]

Is there a bee around that could tell me an exact product brand and name for acetic acid if I were to visit mt local photo chem. supplier.

Or maybe point me in other safe Aquisition direction.

Scorpion

[illumenum]

There are no product names in this realm really.  Usually its kodak, I guess.  All have to mention that you want pure 28% acetic acid stop bath solution or that you want glacial acetic acid [stop bath concentrate].
They won't jump on your case.  If they even dare ask you why you want pure acetic acid instead of the newfangled stuff; tell them you're oldschool and you like it better this way.  Or tell them you're rebuilding some oldschool persons darkroom as a present and you want everything to be exactly as it was in 1973.

[Scorpion]

illumenum,

Thanks for the info.

Scorpion

[Commodium]

Yesterday I visited the photo supply shop near the local state university. They used to carry straight-up glacial (several+ years ago, when I was a student), but they don't anymore. They did have some Kodak "concentrated" stop bath that is definitely acetic, but the guy behind the counter couldn't tell me whether or not it was glacial. Also, it was an "indicating" type, which means it has some kind of additive in it that changes color when the stop bath becomes exhausted. Not what I wanted.

I told them nicely that they oughta stock some straight-up glacial instead of all this "new-fangled" stuff, and I left. Guess I'll have to order the straight-up from PF.

Oh, and if anyone at a photo supply store ever has the nerve to ask you what you want glacial acetic for (that would be a truly idiotic question), it would be perfectly appropriate for you (a photographer) to say, "What do I want it for? Are you an idiot?".

[Loafter]

Let Loafter help ya out:

Loafter uses that indicator stop bath.
This is what it is, as per MSDS:

.  COMPOSITION/INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Weight % - Component - (CAS Registry No.) Concentrate:
 85-90     Acetic acid (000064-19-7)
10- 15     Water (007732-18-5)
< 0.1     Bromocresol purple (000115-40-2)
should bee good to roll with, methinks...

[Hunter S. Thompson]

Heh, last time I bought my 28% acetic,
they guy behind the counter eyed me
and said - with a smile - "You ain't gonna be making absinthe with this, are you?".

:-)

[ChemHack]

Buying it is preferable if you can anonamously get a reasonable price but if that fails you could always just make it.

Materials:
Gallon of White Vinegar.  (Try to get 9% acidity "pickling" vinegar)
Container of Lye
Sulfuric Drain Opener
pH paper
Distillation rig
Plastic bucket
Large cassarole pan(sp?)  Pyrex glass and Corning ceremics are good.

Method:
Pour vinegar into the bucket.  Add lye a little at a time.  Bee careful about that volcano action.  Also always keep lye bottle closed when not using it.  And don't use a metal spoon. 

Sodium Acetate is being formed.  It is water soluable so you won't see it.  Keep adding lye until it stops fizzing when more is added.  Check the pH.  You are shooting for a pH between 7 and 9.  If it is below 7 then, when you go to concentrate it, some of the vinegar will vaporize and stink.  The higher it is above 7 the more unreacted lye will be left over so add slowly.

Pour the liquid into your cassarole dish.  The inevitable extra lye is why you've gotta use glass.  Lye will react with the glass but very slowly.  Whatever you do don't use an aluminum pot!  Put it in the oven at 300C so that the water will all evaporate away.  Expect it to take many many hours.

When all the water is gone you'll be left with a crusty substance that is mostly sodium acetate but also probably a little bit of lye.  You will be happy if you are not using a white cassarole because it will be easier to see it and get it all out when you start scraping...

Slowly and Carefully add sulfuric drain opener.  Distill and collect between 110-125.

Not quite pure but close enough for most uses...

[quick1]

loafter, are you sayin that the kodak brand is the same as glacial or if it is concentrated it can replace glacial?that is the only thing available in these parts. kodak that is

[Commodium]

Well, it can't be the SAME as glacial because it's got anywhere from 9% to 14% more water in it than glacial does (based on those MSDS figures Loafter posted).

Whether or not it could REPLACE glacial would depend on what you were using it for, I guess (sorry, I know that doesn't answer your question).

I wonder if you absolutely HAD to have glacial (like if you were making an ester, for some kind of electrical experiment or something), you could take this Kodak indicator stuff and dry it using MgSO4 or some other drying agent, and keep drying it until it doesn't lose anymore weight?

Then you'd have glacial (with a little bit of purple shit in it), right?

[Loafter]

Loafter sez:
It isnt glacial, for certain....you see, glacial means 99.999999%

But...
Loafter has been using this 85-90% stuff to do the performic
or peracetic in this case.
I havent got product yet, but if youwanna check out I AM A VIRGIN in Methods, you can follow the experiments
Loafter figures that if performic uses 80%Formic, then using that kodak shit at full strength would probably work, since formic is a stronger acid than Acetic...
Actually, this bee would rather have tried with 100% Acetic, for that reson, but alas, all he could find was the kodak indicator stuff...
Check methods, Ill keep it posted...
Much Love for the Bee Massive
Loaf

[Worlock]

If looking for an excuse to buy glacial,
tell the photo shop people,
your an x-ray tech, your hand tanking some delicate shots, because the film quality is better, especially with the rare earth intensifying screens your using.

Therefore you need the glacial, to mix your own stop fix.

X-ray is very similar to a black and white photo.

The film processing chemicals are almost the same, The stop fix is identical.
It neutralizes the developer solution that sticks to the film,
So that the expensive fixer is not weakened.
And prevents over-development (darkening of the film)

Film are placed in the developer solution then washed in water
Then the fixer solution , clears away the extra Silver and I0dine

[Worlock]

When drying acetic acid in MgSO4(epsom)
Be sure to bake the shit out of the epsom.
400 degrees F for a day.

When adding the acetic to the epsom, the epsom seems to disappear, it is in solution holding the water.
So you still need to do a distillation to remove the acetic from the MgSO4 solution.

Although I have yet to try it, The absorbant Silicates are a good place to start.
The little packets that ship with pills and electronics.
I assume they will need to be baked till dry
and filtered away

[WHEE3]

I used to run a lab and if I remember correctly, c-41 color machine chemistry uses
glacial acetic acid for fixer...the process names are "c-41" (color negative chemistry)
and "RA-4" (color print chem.)
One of these chems smells exactly like captain crunch !!
hope this helps.

[Laimo]

Jesus Christ, Just go to the photo shop and ask them to order Kodak  "28% Acedic Acid" thats what the lable reads and the back ingredents say acedic acid, water. Its under $5 for 16oz

[NeXus]

Can one not just order glacial acetic acid from a chemical company?  I've seen many that have it.  Just curious.

[Semtex Enigma]

Would anyone happen to have any details on the peracetic acid route.  BTW I have already read what is on Rhodium's site...

[Chromic]

Has anyone tried making GAA from vinegar, baking soda and drain cleaner? I'd love to hear comments.

[Rhodium]

Because it isn't cost effective to make it when you can buy it?

[Buster_Hymen]

Yep. GAA is still easy to acquire, at least in the U.S. Black & white photography buffs who develop their own film and prints often buy it and dilute it for use as a stop bath.
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[SirSpicious]

SWIS been wondering whether or not to buy some GAA from a photolab, but i recently found i could buy 15Kg containers of 10% Peracetic,10% Acetic, 30-60% H2O2 from a local cleaning supplier... it seems to me that it would be much easier to divert this through a cleaning business than photography.. SWIS would be using it for a peracetic... but it would be far easier to concentrate this, than 100 litres of clear vinegar...
=)
-SS

Ichiki Michiko all alone in Tokyo..