Sodium borohydride from Orthoboric and NaOH

[Flip]

4H₂ + NaOH + H₃BO₃ <=====> NaBH₄ + 4H2O

How might one effectively control this equilibrium?

Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.

[Aurelius]

reference?  procedure?

[Flip]

No reference, no procedure, just something I thought of after studying hydrides.  It's a balanced equation though and all the electronegativity values seem to be in order (trust me I consulted a gradeschool chemistry book ).

I will tell you that an easy way to produce hydrogen gas is aq.hydrochloric over zinc metal.....

Zn +   2HCl =====>  ZnCl2 +  2H₂

You'll need lots of the H2

And that both NaOH and H3BO3 are found in powder form and readily availiable OTC from the average grocery/hardware store.

Flip
Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.

[Rhodium]

A balanced equation also says Ephedrine + MeI -> 4-MeO-Methamphetamine Hydriodide.

Will it happen? No. Just because an equation is balanced doesn't mean it's going to happen.

[Flip]

Try it.

Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.

[PrimoPyro]

How might one effectively control this equilibrium?

Electrolysis. UTSE, it's been discussed before, as a patent series found my PolytheneSam and gabbed about by yours truly.

PrimoPyro

Will perform sexual favors for females in exchange for 1,2-dimethylaziridine. PM for details.

[Flip]

Yeah it did seem a bit too obvious not to have been thought of before.  Still, I love discovering things for myself.  So if I get all excited and post something like it is revolutionary, even though it is obvious, don't worry that's just crazy ol' Flip.

Still you have to admit that this is an amazing synth.  Who needs sources when you can start from scratch?

EDIT:   It's kinda funny though.... a search using :

H3BO3
orthoboric
orthoborate
boracic
trihydroxyborane

Turned up nothing on this topic except these posts.  Where are these threads you are mentioning?

Flip
Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.

[PrimoPyro]

Who needs sources when you can start from scratch?

Who needs to start from scratch when that's what chemical suppliers are for?  

It's all a matter of how you look at things, and what your objective is. i.e. Slight Mass/Mass Production, or experimental/pleasure of synthesis. Methods will vary accordingly.  

PrimoPyro

Will perform sexual favors for females in exchange for 1,2-dimethylaziridine. PM for details.

[Flip]

This reaction is scaleable and would be a safer, cheaper method of obtaining large quantities of this compound.

Now if you will excuse me I have to get back to my nano

Flip
Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.

[Protium]

The first equation is superior, it's a cheap and over the counter way of making a prized reagent from common commercial products.

Orthoboric can be obtained 100% in certain insecticides, most notably certain powdered roach and carpet flea killers.

sodium borohydride from the grocery store.

Pr(+)tium

[moo]

Did you guys know that there is an equilibrium between two forms of elemental carbon, diamonds and graphite, that is on the side of graphite? Fortunately the reaction is so slow that nobody is going to see diamonds turn into graphite. Furthermore, diamonds can be made from graphite but it requires a lot of effort in the form of pressure and heat. Equations are equations, they are theoretical. Take a look at the actual NaBH₄ production patents listed in

Post 253798 (missing)

(PolytheneSam: "NaBH4 patents", Chemistry Discourse) and realize that if there was such an easy way to produce NaBH₄ it surely would already have been patented because of all the money involved and all the elemental sodium and autoclaves missing. Remember: If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. And regarding the electrolytical method, the half-reactions combined are not the same equation.

[Protium]

Your analogy is not applicable.

Also, you are forgetting about the principles of electronegativity and reactivities which are also determined by equations.  Everything can be defined by mathematics, really, even if that is beyond your understanding.

Anyone who does not believe that borofax can be reduced to a borohydride, is, IMHO, a moron.

This is the whole principle behind hydrogen fuel cells.  The NaBH4 is reacted with a catalyst to produce electricity and hydrogen, along with other byproducts, and can these can be recycled back into NaBH4.

"Essentially, you just need to add back the hydrogen," -Stephen Tang Millenium Cell Inc.

I know what I am talking about.  Trust me i'm an isotope of hydrogen.Pr(+)tium

[Protium]

Alternatively, NaBH₄ can be produced by reacting boric acid with methanol to produce trimethylborate which is then reacted with sodium hydride at elevated temperatures.  This isn't exactly a process for the amatuer chemist, however, as the methyl borate/sodium hydride reaction is potentially very explosive.
Pr(+)tium

[terbium]

Anyone who does not believe that borofax can be reduced to a borohydride, is, IMHO, a moron.
You should be more careful about who you are calling a moron. Actually, your statement above is not incorrect. That is because you have confused things so badly as to make it meaningless.

This is the whole principle behind hydrogen fuel cells.  The NaBH4 is reacted with a catalyst to produce electricity and hydrogen, along with other byproducts, and can these can be recycled back into NaBH4.
Wrong again! You are really doing a good job of demonstrating the adage that "a little knowledge can be dangerous".

"Essentially, you just need to add back the hydrogen," -Stephen Tang Millenium Cell Inc.
Yep, that again is not incorrect, it is just that the devil is in the details.

[terbium]

Alternatively, NaBH4 can be produced by reacting boric acid with methanol to produce trimethylborate which is then reacted with sodium hydride at elevated temperatures.
Yep, that has been the process for about 60 years. I wonder why they bother with this difficult procedure when amateurs like protium know such simpler procedures?

[Protium]

You should be more careful about who you are calling a moron.

I'm sorry ol' Terb but I did not call anyone a moron except those that believe this reaction is not empirically and chemically sound.

Actually, your statement above is not incorrect

YOU seem to agree so you do not fit into this category, and anyone who does I invite to raise their hand and bee counted.  I'll have a nice laugh.

That is because you have confused things so badly as to make it meaningless.

Respectfully:
This is what I like to call "double talk".  Actually the statement is quite clear. "Borofax" also means "Orthoboric", and a dictionary will help you with the rest.  You have also made an unclear pronoun reference with your usage of the word "things", and this hazy collection of words does not seem to relate to why my statement is not incorrect.

Wrong again! You are really doing a good job of demonstrating the adage that "a little knowledge can be dangerous".

I do not see how my making generalizations changes the fact that I am correct.

Yep, that has been the process for about 60 years. I wonder why they bother with this difficult procedure when amateurs like protium know such simpler procedures?

Yeilds, and operating costs.

the devil is in the details

Always
Pr(+)tium

[Protium]

So who is going to stand up and announce that hydrides cannot be produced from hydroxides?

Maybe someone can pop in with another analogy comparing carbon structures to chemical structures?

I'm waiting.


Pr(+)tium

[Organikum]

a working procedure is what my heart cries for, dicksizing is for the COUCH.

NaBH4 for the masses!

I promise everyone who gives us a way to make NaBH4 in a clandestine way that I personally will feed his ego till the end of all days!

So please chefs de la cuisine, cook and write!

ORGY
~ Love is the law, love under will. ~

[Flip]

>(from)some kid’s school paper on boron

That kid should have failed the class.

>Reactions can occur in either acidic or basic conditions.

That kid did not have his head on straight with the ionic potential of boron.  Compounds like Al(OH)3 are indeed amphoteric, whereas B(OH)3 is a weak acid (due to the higher electronegativity of B). B(OH)3 doesn't react with acids (the OH groups are not basic but covalently bound to the B) but can add another OH^- to form B(OH)4^-.

Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.

[Protium]

a working procedure is what my heart cries for

Well sir, it's pretty "cut and dry" until the NaBH4 comes into contact with moisture.  That's when the whole process turns around on itself. Electrolysis is not a difficult procedure, but should you want quality equipment and decent yeilds with this you might consider contacting:

Stuart Energy Systems in Toronto, Canada
Teledyne Brown in Maryland
Proton Energy in Rocky Hill, CT, USA
Hydrogen Systems in Montreal, Quebec Canada

I would start with 1.23 V and try working up or down from there, depending of course on the scale to which you wish to attempt this.  Lower voltage and longer reaction times will mean better yeilds.

I was also thinking about the controlled addition of sodium metal into the reaction as it progresses.

2Na + 2H2O ----> H2 + 2NaOH + HEAT

This would seem a viable solution as our unwanted H2O byproduct would then become our reagents of choice.

Sodium metal can be difficult to obtain for some, but even the most ghetto of chemists can rig up a cell with a tin can anode and iron wire cathode to obtain sodium metal from molten NaOH, and just collect it a little at a time until they have enough.  SAFETY NOTE: Of course they would be wearing safety goggles and long sleeves
Pr(+)tium