Sodium borohydride from Orthoboric and NaOH

[lugh]

I was also thinking about the controlled addition of sodium metal into the reaction as it progresses.

2Na + 2H2O ----> H2 + 2NaOH + HEAT

This would seem a viable solution as our unwanted H2O byproduct would then become our reagents of choice.

Sodium, hydrogen and water are a sure recipe for a fire, something you don't seem to understand  

[Protium]

Once again I would have one reference a dictionary, namely the entry for "controlled".  Additionally, this reaction should be run in a solvent such as hexane (in this case erroneously referring to an anhydrous solvent), and the sodium would react only with the molar amount of H₂O produced, and I believe that the controlled addition of sodium metal, perhaps also stored in such a medium for addition, would effectively tip the scale of the equilibium to produce quality yeilds.

I wasn't aware that every reaction on this forum had to have a child safety on it.  Perhaps we should begin every procedure with a "LEGAL HAZARD:" notification as well.

It seems to me that people just don't want to believe. .  I will leave it to the discretion of the educated.

Good work Flip.
Pr(+)tium

[Rhodium]

If an inorganic reaction works, it has already been patented, and you could dig up the patent and post it here, instead of guessing wildly.

[lugh]

this reaction should be run in a solvent such as hexane

Hexane is a curious choice for a solvent in electrolysis; please explain what advantage it offers  

[Protium]

Hexane is a curious choice for a solvent in electrolysis; please explain what advantage it offers

Lugh, please re-read the posts.  It dissapoints me that you criticize my post before you even know what it is that I am speaking of.

In this case the addition of sodium would function as an alternative to electrolysis.

I resent the fact that I must post again in a topic which I had resolved to cease my debate of.  These are not all wild guesses, this is chemistry and mathematics at work, educated guesses.  Do I think that I am 100% right?  No.  It was just a suggestion.  I will be happy to be corrected either way because that will increase my own knowledge and doubtless it will do the same for others.

You people should be thinking about ways to MAKE IT WORK, you are being counter-productive in only thinking of reasons that you think it will not work.  Hexane was just an off the cuff name for a solvent that does not contain water.

We should have more teamwork here at the Hive.
Pr(+)tium

[lugh]

Your posts are rather sparse on detail, we're interested in working syntheses, not wild theoretical guesswork    Your latest proposal is to use hexane as a reaction solvent for orthoboric acid and sodium hydroxide; and add sodium in small portions, right    Here on earth, I haven't seen hexane dissolve such compounds, maybee it's different where you are  

[Protium]

Who says they have to be dissolved? (<---sarcastic)

Your comments are appreciated lugh, perhaps I did not use the best terms to relate to you that the solvent should not contain water, but the latter was my only intention.  Please reference the words "such as", when used in combination. Being a couch moderator, I think you have become a bit too accustomed to arguing irrelavent details.

The fact is, however, that I have thoroughly reviewed the mathematics of Flip's equation and it is 100% correct.  If you cannot see why this is established then you have no right to criticize minor details. It is late and I am weary, naturally prone to error after long periods without sleep.

There is a difference between winning a battle and winning a war.

If you want to see established synthesis than you sure as hell better establish it.  Flip's equation IS correct.  You can sit here talking shit or you can get to work, but i'm certainly not posting any procedures after this flogging.

And I still hold to the assertion that anyone who would concoct a roundabout reason that borates cannot be reduced to borohydrides is a moron, as this has been well documented.  Furthermore, it is established that B(OH)3 will not react with acids but will react with bases to take on another hydroxy group.

The obvious advantage to this being that I can pick up all of this stuff at the grocery store.  So go ahead, flame away buddy, you're making an ass of yourself, as have all who have attempted to criticize this beautiful and victorious equation.  You've effectively taken a diamond of incredible value and dismissed it as graphite.

Once again, it is left to the discretion of the educated.
Pr(+)tium

[moo]

Chemistry is an empirical science. Is moron REALLY a person who thinks a reaction is empirically sound before there is an actual method which, quite understandably, has been tested even once? Science is also based on criticism and questioning, but strong belief without proof is typical of religion. Now, I didn't make "Equations schmequations" the subject because I thought equations do not work at all. My point was that if you think an equation proves that something is easy and works, you're seeing the tip of an iceberg.

Protium, do not get upset because if you are right nobody can change it. But bear in mind that you can end up real close to the electrolytical sodium borohydride production patent which indeed is a gem. And the details are most relevant, there is no working procedure without working out the details. If you can't think of which details then do not try. It might cost your life.

[Protium]

You have stated that chemistry is an empirical science.  And yet you have undermined the very principles of science with your comments. "Equations schmequations".  You seem to be under the impression that a working method must be produced prior to proving an equation to be sound.  This is not true.  Do you think that einstein came up with the theory of relativity with practical observation?  I can only be amused at the foolish responses this has generated. Can one not use inductive reasoning for such determinations based upon the information given? Primo, buddy, why have you not chimed in?  However, after getting some sleep I am quite happy to walk you through it, and provide some references for your better understanding.

The first principle in proving that this equation is correct would be the reaction of B(OH)3, otherwise known as orthoboric, under basic conditions, to form B(OH)4.  Orthoboric is not amphoteric, it's actually a weak acid.  This can be proven with the concepts of mathematics and electronegativity, and shown with equations:

B(OH)3(aq) + H+(aq) = NO REACTION (B(OH)3 is already acidic)
B(OH)3(s or aq) + OH-(aq) = B(OH)4- (aq)

You may consult

http://www.chem.uwa.edu.au/enrolled_students/Chem100/Chem100_sect2/sect2.3.3.1.html

for a different variation of this equation which demonstrates the same thing.

And I will also quote:

http://artsandscience.concordia.ca/facstaff/A-C/BIRD/c242/notes_ch12-cwp.html

"B2O3 and B(OH)3 are acidic rather like SiO2 and Si(OH)4 whereas the Al compounds are weakly amphoteric"

Furthermore the ionic properties of sodium also through similar forms of mathematics can be shown to form a salt with said B(OH)4, to form NaB(OH)4.

Now the second principle which seems hard for you folks to grasp is the equalibrium of:

NaBH4 + H2O  <=>  NaB(OH)4 + H2

BH4-, is a tetrahedral compound in which all hydrogens are magnetically equivalent.  NMR spectra would show a 1:1:1:1 resonance.  Might I also point out that the electrolytic conversion of hydroxides to hydrides is also well documented and proven.

Furthermore the reaction of sodium with water to produce sodium hydroxide and hydrogen is also proven, but it occured to me that the process of electrolytic reduction would also create NaH from NaOH in the process and the NaH would react with the water to form NaOH and more hydrogen, so this already occurs with the electrolytic method which would be superior.

NaH + H2O --> NaOH + H2

Now if at this point you cannot see the established method for the creation of sodium borohydride from orthoboric than you are either a fool, a moron, or you need to find references on electrolysis.  The reaction as a whole is proven as the sum of it's parts.

Electrolysis is not a difficult procedure, and a writeup would be more than simple as all the neccessary variables are documented and can be referenced without further experimentation.  The experiment would be carried out in an anhydrous polar solvent, to facilitate the dissociation of ionic compounds and inhibit the violent reaction with water.

Rest assured your concern for my health has been noted, moo.  However, the handling of hydrides and hydrogen gas emissions is trusted even by universities to the average college sophmore.  This reaction is only dangerous if you do not know what you are doing, or are working without the proper equipment. 

Of course, your comments on criticism in the scientific method are correct.  However this is just about as applicable as your analogy of carbon shifts to chemical reactivity.  When one criticizes an argument it is customary to produce a counter-argument.  IE I have sat here and given you all the reasons why it works, and unless you can come up with a solid reason why it does not work then you have no place in the conversation, and roundabout analogies and the teasing of asshole couch moderators only serves to cloud the scientific process.

Like I said we need more teamwork.  The process of production is obvious to anyone with an education in chemistry.  The only thing left in question is the yeilds.  The Hive is beginning to show a lack in it's academia. These concepts are obvious to anyone who is familiar with hydrogen fuel cell research.  Are we all but pathetic cooks who must wait to slobber all over writeups when the answers are right under our noses?

Here all my ultimatums to all Hive bees who wish to post anything besides questions in the chemistry discourses:

You need to learn new reactions as they appear.
You need to know mechanisms.
You need some basic principles of reactions.
You need to be creative.

You should not place limitations on what the Hive can acheive as a collective academic force.

No, this is not in the search engine. No, this is not in Sam's patent database.  Flip has devised a method of producing NaBH4 from over the counter materials that was previously unheard of on the hive.

Pr(+)tium

[yellium]

*plonk*

[Flip]

Hey bees, check out Protium's message in his profile

Is it standard practice to ban people whom you dislike?

Is it acceptable to silence the voice of those who may contribute?

IS THIS THE POLICY OF THE HIVE?

Should moderators be allowed dictatorial powers?

In a related story I feel sick to my core.

EDIT: Lugh, the procedure is obvious, I need no one else to do any work for me. 

And the equation is correct.



Flip
Conclusion /nm./: the place where you got tired of thinking.

[lugh]

You aren't running this place, we are, and I'm not the only mod that wanted to ban Protium    If you continue with your current attitude about simple scientific skepticism, you're going to find it difficult to function    This thread needs to be locked