Author Topic: Catalytic Hydrogenation for mescaline  (Read 3784 times)

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mottaman420

  • Guest
Catalytic Hydrogenation for mescaline
« on: April 29, 2002, 10:22:00 PM »
Can you magnetically stir a hydrogenation such as the ones described here (Krz's write up)--->

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/mescaline.cathyd.html


or do you have to shake like a vibrator to accomplish this goal???

Blue Horses + Red Donkeys = Purple Mules

Rhodium

  • Guest
Shaking is the way to go.
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2002, 10:33:00 PM »
Shaking is the way to go.

Osmium

  • Guest
Unless your reaction is small and your stirrer ...
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2002, 12:47:00 AM »
Unless your reaction is small and your stirrer magnet and flask are quite big, then magnetic will work ok too.
Another possibility is surface stirring. You want to get as much turbulence and liquid to gas contact as possible.

I'm not fat just horizontally disproportionate.

mottaman420

  • Guest
hmmm
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2002, 11:40:00 PM »
anyone know of a stirrer that can be just dropped in and is fully self contained??

Or any ideas on how one could make one. It sure would make life a lot easier. Prolly just a stupid idea though.

Since overhead stirring is almost completely out of the question. And the use of glass is the same (don't feel safe making a glass bomb). Is stainless steel impossible to run a magnetic stirrer through?? What metals could one use and still be able to magnetically stir? What is the largest volume that a magnetic stirrer could stir through one of those metals.

Corny kegs come in 3, 5 ,And 10 gal sizes and to me seem like they would work perfect for a hydrogenator. They open up real easily and are very easy to find as well as to pressurize and do all that shit with. 3 gal seems like all the room one would need for most catalytic hydrogenations, so would a 3 gal work with a mag stir assuimng it was like between 1/4 and 1/2 inch thick stainless steel?

Blue Horses + Red Donkeys = Purple Mules

obia

  • Guest
I think there used to be vibrating stirrers that ...
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2002, 12:08:00 AM »
I think there used to be vibrating stirrers that were totally sealed they were attached to the top of containers and used an internal plunger moved by an external electromagnet. I guess these could be worked onto the holes on a cask/keg. if i can be bothered i'll draw one
a word of warning about using unlined 304 stainless steel kegs, I have seen them suffer from weld failure probly due to hydrogen embrittlement and attack by dissolved chloride ions. even at 60psi there is a lot of force released plus it is kinda difficult to recover catalyst from the ceiling.

hest

  • Guest
Hydrogenation
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2002, 09:00:00 AM »
mottaman420, Don't think the hydrogenator will solve all your problems. It's grath for turning nitrostyrenes into oximes (who cares) but not so greath for turning them into amines (atleast not for mee) An extreme high cat. load might solve the problem, but then it's to ekspensive to run.


mottaman420

  • Guest
teflon
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2002, 07:19:00 PM »
what if i coated the inside with 3 or 4 coats of a teflon based paint?

Blue Horses + Red Donkeys = Purple Mules

hest

  • Guest
Won't work
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2002, 11:30:00 PM »
That is not the problem. The problem is that cat. hydrogenation of nitrostyrens to alkylamines does not work.

josef_k

  • Guest
Won't work??
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2002, 01:22:00 AM »
So whomever wrote that writeup on rhodiums page is lying?
And the ones who wrote the us patent 3458576 is also lying?

Rhodium

  • Guest
catalytic reduction of nitrostyrenes
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2002, 02:14:00 AM »
Hest is wrong - catalytic reductions of nitrostyrenes work satisfactorily, but phenylnitropropenes react very sluggishly (which is what he has experience from).

Rhodium

  • Guest
catalytic reduction of nitrostyrenes
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2002, 02:15:00 AM »
Hest is wrong - catalytic reductions of nitrostyrenes work satisfactorily, but phenylnitropropenes react very sluggishly (which is what he has experience from), unless very high catalyst loads are employed.

hest

  • Guest
Hydrogenation
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2002, 08:52:00 PM »
Sorry for the short answer.
My personal experience with catalytic hydrogenations of penylnitropropen, phenylnitropropan, trimethoxynitroethen and trimethoxynitroethan was bad, I always ended up with the oxime. I know that the literature says that it is possible, especially with an extreme high catalytic load (usual g to g). If anyone has a personal ekspiriens of success I would love to hear and learn from it.
And yes patents are full of lies.
(Don’t come with 10-15 refs. where they say it works. I have only respect for personal experience
My point is that hydrogenation at 4-6 bar wont substitute LAH

mottaman420

  • Guest
best way
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2002, 06:47:00 AM »
So the best way to make mescaline from 3,4,5-trimethoxybenzaldehyde is to make it into the nitrostyrene and the use electrosynthesis?
Any other ideas on doing it while using the most easily available chems?
Anyone here actually made mesc? (extracting don't count)

Blue Horses + Red Donkeys = Purple Mules

hest

  • Guest
Mescalin
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2002, 08:24:00 AM »
Yes, but only with the LAH reduction of the nitroethen and the nitroethan. Next time ill try the mandelonitril

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/2cb.mandelonitrile.html

. Also used alot in the chemical litt.

mottaman420

  • Guest
???
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2002, 11:23:00 AM »
Don't know which question you are answering. I assume it is the "has anybody made it question" and not the "is this the best way question"

Blue Horses + Red Donkeys = Purple Mules

zed

  • Guest
I wouldn't admit to doing it.
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2002, 02:37:00 AM »
But, I might admit to seeing it. It has been a while, but....in the experiments I observed.....Electro-reductions did not work very well for producing Mescaline....poor yields.

Never tried producing it via H2/Pt, I assumed it was possible, but I must defer to hest. In my experiments, I used H2/Pt to produce P2Ps from Nitro-propenylbenzenes via the oxime. This works well, and it scales well.

The LAlH4 reduction does work fairly well, but it isn't the highest yielding of LAlH4 reductions. This I have seen.

Regarding Hydrogenations:

Shaking, it has it's advantages.

Stirring also has something to be said for it; It is easy, and it can be done with stuff you already have, a filter flask with a balloon on it will work nicely. Further, there are stir bars that are designed to help entrain gases, and since it is a stationary setup, successive charges of reactant can be siphoned through the system, through fixed siphon tubes. Best point might be, that you could experiment with it tomorrow afternoon.

Those stationary systems, that provide agitation via an isolated solenoid, might provide the best of both worlds. Alas, I never had the pleasure of working with one.

But, from what we are hearing, hydrogenation, may not be the best answer for this one.

As for lying on patents and research papers, I concur with hest. They lie.

Now, my question. Has anyone tried to circumvent this nasty reduction problem via using 3,5-Di-iodo(or Di-Bromo) tyrosine as a starting material?

Hest, do you think this is possible? No reductions, Just methoxylation, methylation, and decarboxylation?

psycosmo

  • Guest
A protecting group might be necessary for the ...
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2002, 05:42:00 AM »
A protecting group might be necessary for the methylation. I dunno how much trouble that is.

hest

  • Guest
tyrosine
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2002, 11:14:00 AM »
Can' see why it should'nt work, you will end up with the ester after the methoxylation, but who cares. Mice thought. But the Iodation of tyrosine is not posible unless you protect the amine. On the other hand, I'm quite sure that the bromination will work werrye well. Nice thought's

moo

  • Guest
Re: Electro-reductions did not work very well for ...
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2002, 10:26:00 PM »

Electro-reductions did not work very well for producing Mescaline....poor yields.




Yes, but please tell us more about your apparatus.


psycosmo

  • Guest
Even if bromine doesnt require protection of the ...
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2002, 01:21:00 AM »
Even if bromine doesnt require protection of the amine, wouldnt the methylation require it so as not to get the n-methyl product?