Author Topic: Mushroom surface sterilization  (Read 12567 times)

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SaintCyril

  • Guest
Mushroom surface sterilization
« on: August 23, 2002, 03:17:00 PM »
In growing mushrooms the most difficult part is reduction of bateria and fungus wich might over colonize the mushroom growth in the early stages.  Obviously washing hands for 10 minutes with antibacterial soap and using an autoclave for the media and all tools, and glassware, ect.  But what I have noticed is a many use bleach or somesort of other chemical to sterilize work surfaces and the inside of the incubator.  I used to use bleach, but switched to quatranary ammonia a few years ago, and the stuff works wonders.  In a bio-med lab we just called it quat, its blue and works very well on surfaces to eliminate unwanted bacteria and fungus.  I suggest it in addition to the above methods to anyone, and to a newbee it will reduce the unwanteds much better on tools if you happen to not have an autoclave.

Cy

We are the people that your parents warned you about.

GOD

  • Guest
if there is no access to an autoclave, a pressure ...
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2002, 03:56:00 PM »
if there is no access to an autoclave, a pressure cooker and Al foil are your best friends, dont leave anything to chance.

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

SaintCyril

  • Guest
Autoclaves
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2002, 04:11:00 PM »
If you go to an industrial surplus store in your town they will almost for sure have a medical grade autoclave in stock for very inexpensive, less even then the nicer stereoclaves.  Industrial surplus stores are my best friend, and even though you don't know it if you are in an area with more then 100,000 population there is probably one in your town, and some of them are like junk yards, they are linked up to other industrial surplus stores, and can get whatever you want in a couple of days.  Ussual security precautions, fake name, fake corporation, fake mailing address, fake ID, would probabnly be in order if you are the paranoid type, but seriously I have never had them ask for any of that info unless it was something I was ordering, and I had to put $$ down.

Cy

We are the people that your parents warned you about.

Yachaj

  • Guest
obsolete mushroom cult techniques
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2002, 04:48:00 AM »
I hope there is no need to post this statement more than once:

YOU DO NOT NEED A PRESSURE CANNER OR STERILE ENVIRONMENT FOR THE CULTIVATION OF FUNGI. Period. Nor do you need to wash your hands or clean surfaces. Do not believe anyone who states otherwise for they are twenty years behind in knowledge or (most likely) they want to sell you expensive equipment (laminar flow hood, pressure canner, surface sterilization liquids, complete sterile rooms etc. etc.)

You only need to do that if you are too tight assed to invest in 3 manuals: the Psylocybe Fanaticus TEchniques (PF TEK) and 'Growing Mushrooms with Hydrogen Peroxide' vol. I and II.

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

bujinkan

  • Guest
YOU DO NOT NEED A PRESSURE CANNER OR STERILE ...
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2002, 12:19:00 PM »
YOU DO NOT NEED A PRESSURE CANNER OR STERILE ENVIRONMENT FOR THE CULTIVATION OF FUNGI. Period. Nor do you need to wash your hands or clean surfaces. Do not believe anyone who states otherwise for they are twenty years behind in knowledge or (most likely) they want to sell you expensive equipment (laminar flow hood, pressure canner, surface sterilization liquids, complete sterile rooms etc. etc.)

Im not sure what youre getting at here. sterility is key with fungus my friend..sure you can do PF tek with stovetop pastuerization, but pressure canners are always better.
as far as your statement about cleanliness and *not washing your hands*, thats pretty silly. the only way this is so is if you are doing outdoor growing, and even then you need to get sterile spawn.

Im not trying to be contrary, but ive seen lots of growing setups, lots of substrates and techniques. by far the highest yeilds come from casings.  usually 5050 (verm/peat) spawned with finch seed. Im not sure what technique youre getting at...im assuming some invitro pinning stuff. Thats fine...but if you  really want to grow shrooms, and i mean lots of them, learn how to use birdseed spawn....and yes for that you do need a pressure canner(finch seed by nature is next to impossible to sterilize without a canner).

ok, so you dont have to take my word for it. heres some examples, courtesy of my friend ryche hawk.
thai cubensis

http://www.thehawkseye.com/thai_lipa/thaily1_1fl.jpg


cambodian cubes

malaysian cubes

http://www.thehawkseye.com/malaysia/mal_bs3.jpg


panaeolus cyanescens and a few 'b' strain PF cubes

golden teachers

http://www.thehawkseye.com/eq/ecu_od2_4.jpg



all these casings are from this technique:

http://www.shroomery.org/findorgrowthem.php?View=docs&doc=33


except for the pan cyans, which im not too sure about. Ryche does have a grow room with hepa filters, but this isnt totally neccessary. the important thing is the substrate, the sterilization, and the growth environment.


If I'm reading this correctly..and I like to think that I am.....

bujinkan

  • Guest
yes,
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2002, 12:24:00 PM »
yes you have to wash your hands. cleanliness is key. Humidity, temperature, air exchange are also key for eliminating and controlling contaminants, as well as optimizing growth.
'Plantasia Mystery' cubensis


BTW: this probably doesnt belong in Tryp Chem.
Thai (lamai strain) cubensis


If I'm reading this correctly..and I like to think that I am.....

paranoid

  • Guest
Yachaj
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2002, 03:56:00 PM »
=RATED AS - Idiodic=


"obsolete mushroom cult techniques    

I hope there is no need to post this statement more than once:

YOU DO NOT NEED A PRESSURE CANNER OR STERILE ENVIRONMENT FOR THE CULTIVATION OF FUNGI. Period. Nor do you need to wash your hands or clean surfaces. Do not believe anyone who states otherwise for they are twenty years behind in knowledge or (most likely) they want to sell you expensive equipment (laminar flow hood, pressure canner, surface sterilization liquids, complete sterile rooms etc. etc.)"


Any newbees reading this please disregard, this guy is obviously either a moron or fucking with you.
 

GOD

  • Guest
yach- tell me this then, with the peroxide...
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2002, 05:10:00 PM »
yach- tell me this then, with the peroxide... How the hell are you going to get the spores to germinate?  Either way, there is no way around sterile procedure.  Swims seen that manual too- read the thing before spreading misinformation!
How the hell are ya going to do the clean, sterile work on them dishes without means to sterilise PROPERLY.  Newbees, shortcuts=contamination.  There is no avoiding having to acquire the proper tools and the use of sterile technique.

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

goiterjoe

  • Guest
bujinkan's photos
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2002, 10:10:00 PM »
are those amanitas I see growing in the second photo with the attached veils and huge stalks, or are they just extremely large cubensis mushrooms in really bad lighting (I should sober up and look at these tomorrow)?

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

ClearLight

  • Guest
He's waiting too long...
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2002, 10:50:00 PM »

  The caps are already open... he'd have stronger shrooms if he harvested earlier...


Infinite Radiant Light - THKRA

GOD

  • Guest
Those are cubensis, not amantias.
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2002, 09:13:00 AM »
Those are cubensis, not amantias.

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

Topologist

  • Guest
Pine trees
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2002, 10:24:00 AM »
Unless you have a pine tree in your living room aminitas are 100% impossible to grow in a lab condidtion, or indoors for that mater.  Yest thats right i said 100%, meaning no one has ever done it or ever will, because the aminita mushrooms are symbiotic with pines, and need the pines root system to live, and yeas the tree has to be healthy and alive.  Heard of some guy with a christmas tree farm growing them before. . .


bujinkan

  • Guest
goiterJ, those are "b+" strain cubensis.
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2002, 01:41:00 PM »
goiterJ, those are "b+" strain cubensis. theres no known  way to get amanitas to grow indoors...and even if there was it probably wouldnt be worth the effort.

clearlight, he's a spore vendor so he is probably going to print all those caps...and if not he's probably just letting them open for the pictures sake.

btw, yachaj..i dont understand how or why you posted this. you seem knowledgable in other things. you recommend PF tek, which is where everyone learns about the absolute necessity for sterility. it doesnt need to be 'ebola lockdown' sterile, but you still have to be very very careful not to introduce microbial competitors to your substrates.

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

foxy2

  • Guest
nope
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2002, 01:55:00 PM »
buj
Those are his friends pics and pics sent to him.  He doesn't grow the mushies.  Didn't you ever read the bust story he had up a year or two ago?  He got raided and they stole tons of his shit but he only had a tiny amount of mushies, like 5grams or something.  They still took his laminar flow hood tho. :(

Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety

bujinkan

  • Guest
hawk
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2002, 08:30:00 PM »
i heard something about that...

My impression was that him and friends had secret growrooms and that they worked together on. who knows. in any case, the technique used here is overwhelmingly the 5050+ casing tek..and id be willing to bet that most if not all of the indoor pics are direct from ryche and friends using his techniques. (this, because of videos of growrooms ive seen on the shroomery...pink floyd in the backround, the whole 9 yards)

i didnt know that they actually raided his place though...i thought that they were trying to shut him down on legalities that didnt exist. In any case someone is producing well for him: i got a few packed syringes a month or two bfore i cut out.

and if youre trying to keep his name out of the light...its a little late for that...and in this corner of the web it matters even less.

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

Yachaj

  • Guest
The 10 bad karma points bet!
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2002, 07:02:00 AM »
In reply to paranoid and bujinkan:

Bujinkan wrote:
>Im not sure what youre getting at here. sterility is key >with fungus my friend..sure you can do PF tek with >stovetop pastuerization, but pressure canners are always >better.

No. Not if you grow only small batches of mushrooms. True, a pressure canner can sterilize a halfpint jar of pelletized substrate in 20 minutes. A milkpan can do it in 60 (at sealevel). But a pc needs 20 mins to heat up and 20 to cool down to the level that the lid can be opened.

The pics you show are obviously of bulksubstrate grown mushrooms. Lemme tell you some things about bulksubstrate:

- it is sensitive to contaminations
- it is a lot of work
- daily maintainance is required (watering!)
- you end up with far more mushrooms than needed for an experiment (legally risky and it usually means that a harvest needs to be stored for a longer time. Potency declines)
- biological efficiency is *low*. Where 16-20 percent of the dry weight of a mixture of powdered brown rice, vermiculite and water will be converted in dry cubensis mushrooms (with an alkaloid content of of 0.7-1.0 percent), bulk substrates show an efficiency which is half in harvested weight and an alkaloid content of 0.7 at best.

Bulksubstrate cultivation is for shroom dealers (who get their money by selling mushrooms by their weight), not psychonauts (who grow their mushrooms for alkaloid content).

A pc is indeed handy for the sterilization of whole grain spawn, especially in amounds which exceed a half pint. But then again, only bulk growers like RHawk do need that. I do not and neither do you. Growing mushrooms in bulk means a pile of legally risky endproduct, with a potency which is both too low and declining.

To paranoid:

Believe me - you do not need a pc or HEPA blower for the preparation/inoculation/incubation of media. I know because I do it all the time. Also in bulk (not cubensis or another psychoactive species but, at this moment, the delicious Hericium erinaceus.

All the necessary techniques are in the manuals I mentioned but I do not give details here because I know it took the authors of those manuals a loong time to design the techniques. I do not want to hurt the sales they deserve but I hereby state again that for germinatin spores, preparation of media, spawn, bulksubstrate no pc or hepa blower or clean lab is necessary. And you do not ned to wash your hands.

But hey, mr. Paranoid: I do no want to go along with you and make this thread into a flame war, but since you called me a moron I bet for 10 bad karma points that I am right. OK?
 

bibliopharmacophile

Yachaj

  • Guest
Spore germination without pc, peroxide or flowhood
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2002, 07:28:00 AM »
yach- tell me this then, with the peroxide... How the hell are you going to get the spores to germinate?  Either way, there is no way around sterile procedure.  Swims seen that manual too- read the thing before spreading misinformation!

GOD (or SWIG), I suggest to read the manuals more closely before you accuse me of spreading misinformation. The spore germination technique (no peroxide, no hepa/glovebox) is at page 7 of volume II of the peroxide manual. The technique suggests a pressure cooker but from personal experience I know that it is not needed.

A spore germination 'technique' which is not mentioned in any of the manuals I mentioned is the following.

Grow mushrooms with the PF TEK and do not harvest. When the mushrooms become over-ripe lots of spores will collect on the top surface of the caps - and germinate!

From there, Waynes' peroxide techniques can be used. But the technique for making spore syringes in the PF TEK itself is even easier. Spores are germinated on the fruiting substrate!

A bulk version of the germination-in-endsubstrate technique (for outdoor purposes) is detailed in Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms of Paul Stamets.

bibliopharmacophile

GOD

  • Guest
YOU DO NOT NEED A PRESSURE CANNER OR STERILE ...
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2002, 09:48:00 AM »
YOU DO NOT NEED A PRESSURE CANNER OR STERILE ENVIRONMENT FOR THE CULTIVATION OF FUNGI. Period. Nor do you need to wash your hands or clean surfaces. Do not believe anyone who states otherwise for they are twenty years behind in knowledge or (most likely) they want to sell you expensive equipment (laminar flow hood, pressure canner, surface sterilization liquids, complete sterile rooms etc. etc.)

Yachaj-
  First off, no offense was intended by my post.  The main thing that I find misleading about the above statement is where it says that no sterile environment is need to grow mushrooms.  Having known people who consider themselves BOTH psychonaughts AND have grown bulk for quite a long period of time, I cant help but assume that they know what they are talking about.  What it boils down two are 2 different stages in the growing process, well one actually- and that is where the substrate is innoculated.  If it is through spores, peroxide is gonna kill them off- thats why peroxide is used.  Youd have to bee super lucky to bee able to take a sporeprint, make a syringe etc... and not get anything else in there thats gonna fuck up the process (other fungus/bacteria piggybacking).  Same holds true when it comes time to clone. 
  Those are the only 2 ways- to date that your gonna bee able to innoculate substrate.  Substrate as well- unless your working outside, for indoor cultivation, which the methods you proposed are methods of- substrate needs to bee sterile, cultures need to bee sterile, spore syringe needs to bee sterile until it is holding UNCONTAMINATED spore solution.  The only way to introduce uncontaminated spores to a sterile substrate is through sterilisation of the substrate, and using peroxide to do this (with spores) will not work- the peroxide method can bee used in this manner if one is using cloned mycelium that has been allowed to grow on peroxide treated agar-  BUT in order for one to ensure that nothing is piggybacking the mycelium, the clone needs to bee taken in a sterile environment, and allowed to grow out on the peroxide treated agar in a sterile environment or else it WILL pick up other forms of fungus that float around in the air. 
  A sterile environment is nessisary UNLESS you are going to make 10,000 attempts and you plan on growing out that one attempt that just happens not to pick up a foreighn species.
  The bane of mushroom cultivation is contamination, and the only way to avoid it is through a sterile environment.  It cannot bee avoided.  And no, I am not trying to sell any expensive labware  :P .  Just speaking from second hand experiance  ;) .

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

bujinkan

  • Guest
, yachaj? /
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2002, 01:18:00 PM »
like RHawk do need that. I do not and neither do you. Growing mushrooms in bulk means a pile of legally risky endproduct, with a potency which is both too low and declining
Potency does not decline as a result of more nutrients. not only does your statement defy common sense, it also defies the experiences of many many growers.
No. Not if you grow only small batches of mushrooms. True, a pressure canner can sterilize a halfpint jar of pelletized substrate in 20 minutes. A milkpan can do it in 60 (at sealevel). But a pc needs 20 mins to heat up and 20 to cool down to the level that the lid can be opened.

A pressure cooker sterilizes more thoroughly. period. No one is trying to be higha nd mighty in telling you this...i myself have used stovetop pastuerization manytimes and it works pretty well, but id still rather have a pressuer cooker.
Lemme tell you some things about bulksubstrate:

- it is sensitive to contaminations
- it is a lot of work
- daily maintainance is required (watering!)
- you end up with far more mushrooms than needed for an experiment (legally risky and it usually means that a harvest needs to be stored for a longer time. Potency declines)
- biological efficiency is *low*. Where 16-20 percent of the dry weight of a mixture of powdered brown rice, vermiculite and water will be converted in dry cubensis mushrooms (with an alkaloid content of of 0.7-1.0 percent), bulk substrates show an efficiency which is half in harvested weight and an alkaloid content of 0.7 at best.

-as compared to what? cakes? this is where the cleanliness factor comes in.
-daily maintanance is required with any shroom setup except sclerotia and invitro. You need air exchange. as far as watering goes, well you need humidity...theres automated setups.
-not everyone wants shrooms for 'experiments'
-THis last one..=)... you need a source to back this up. this is a bold statement...goes against logic and reasoning as well.
 Bulksubstrate cultivation is for shroom dealers (who get their money by selling mushrooms by their weight), not psychonauts (who grow their mushrooms for alkaloid content).
not really. those shrooms i posted are probably better than any shroom either of us have ever had. I fail to see how a shroom can produce maximum alkaloids with very little growth medium.
All the necessary techniques are in the manuals I mentioned but I do not give details here because I know it took the authors of those manuals a loong time to design the techniques. I do not want to hurt the sales they deserve but I hereby state again that for germinatin spores, preparation of media, spawn, bulksubstrate no pc or hepa blower or clean lab is necessary. And you do not ned to wash your hands
all techniques that ive ever heard of are contained here, for free. all you need to do is read all this stuff.

http://www.shroomery.com/findorgrowthem.php


Grow mushrooms with the PF TEK and do not harvest. When the mushrooms become over-ripe lots of spores will collect on the top surface of the caps - and germinate
this i am baffled by...who told you this? most of the time the growing surface is completely covered with mycelium by the time pinning starts...and even if it isnt, by the time the mature mushroom drops spores and those germinate it will be totally overtaken with mycelium.
I dont know where you get your info from, but you need to check your sources..seriously. :-[

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

Yachaj

  • Guest
Mycrosterile puzzle
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2002, 03:36:00 AM »
First off, no offense was intended by my post.

No Problem. I didn't take it as such. And GOD I like your contributions to the MHRB purification technology a lot. But non-lab mushroom cultivation 'in the wild' is my favorite way to spend time. If I have any expertise it is on this subject. I want to share what I know with this community if I am allowed to ask dumb questions about biochemistry now and then.

But enough of this. Back to the zroomz.

The main thing that I find misleading about the above statement is where it says that no sterile environment is need to grow mushrooms

I see and agree that I should have formulated my statement better. I should have written that a mycro (or should I write 'nano' here?) sterile environment is sufficient. You do not need a sterile environment which is big enough to live in (a sterile room), nor do you need a sterile environment which is big enough to stick your arms/hands in (glove box, flowhood). An environment which you can hold in your hands while standing in the kitchen is good enough.

The desired mycelium needs to grow in a container where no other life forms are present (petri dish, sauce jar, test tube, etc.). To be able to introduce the mycelium or spores in that container, the inside of it must have some permeatable entry which is big enough to let through both the spores/mycelium and the carrying utensil but preferably not contaminants (if contaminants come in then they need to die before they can multiply). Furthermore, the mycelium needs to have access to fresh oxygen during incubation.

That is the puzzle. And it is solved in the manuals I named.

That is to say... I see no possibility to introduce a wedge of agar in a new saucejar/petri without introducing unicellular contaminants.

But the agar can be used to clean (molecular filter) the mycelium after the transfer! The technique is called bottom inoculation, it is very useful in cloning and it goes like this. Cut a small square of agar out of the uninoculated, fresh dish/jar and place it next to the hole it leaves behind. Now place the piece of transferred mycelium (or a primordium) in the hole, and the square of virgin agar right on top of it. Make sure that the mycelium/primordium still has an entry to some air.

The mycelial hyphae are able to penetrate the agar while growing upwards. Bacteria can not. Result: on top of the agar appears clean white mycelium in a week or so. Ready for transfer.

In the few days that it takes for the mycelium to grow through all unicellular contaminants in the jar/petri have hit the peroxidated agar at least once and have died as a result of it. So the inside of the container is cleaned too, in despite of the fact that it has been opened during inoculation!

In the PF TEK, the filtering is done by the dry vermiculite contaminant barrier. Which is permeatable by the syringe needle (or even a pipette or eye dropper if the layer is thick enough) without exposing the moist substrate to unsterile air. The reason that PF's simple approach for making spore syringes works (print mushroom cap in baked or boiled jar, inject sterile water/suck sporewater in syringe/inoculate new substrate cake) is because of the overkill of spores compared to the contaminants.

If a sporeprint is dark, fresh and used for just a handfull of syringes and th inoculant is spread well over the substrate (4 inoculation hols or more) the contaminants just can not take over fast enough.

The idea which is proposed by the author of the peroxide book to germinate spores (no flowhood, no water, no vermiculite AND no peroxide) is alo uniquely original. It is absolutely amazing that so few people have recognized the potential of it.

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

Yachaj

  • Guest
Mycro is the way to go, Bujinkan
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2002, 04:35:00 AM »
Potency does not decline as a result of more nutrients.

Potency declines as a result of storage. Which is necessary if you do not use the harvest immediately. Bulksubstrate means 'a lot of substrate' and a big harvest.

A pressure cooker sterilizes more thoroughly.

Not important. 'Effective' is good enough for me. Especially if it can be achieved by a more simple approach.

bulksubstrates show an alkaloid content of 0.7 at best.
as compared to what? cakes?

Example assays:

Cubensis on bulksubstrate, potency 0.5%

http://diseyes.lycaeum.org/teo/cntc.txt



Cubensis in the wild:
see Stamets, PSILOCYBIN MUSHROOMS OF THE WORLD (I do not have it by hand right now but it gives a list of assays, none of which comes above 0.7 percent)

Cubensis on rye:

http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/JBScientific/VariationOfPsi/pages/Variation3.htm



Cubensis on brown rice:

Jochen Gartz, patent No. 88-09773, Akad. Wiss. DDR, noted over 1 percent alkaloid content. If I find back the abstract I will post it.

-daily maintanance is required with any shroom setup except sclerotia and invitro.

Exactly! Invitro ('mycro tek'] is the way to go. Finally a way to cultivate mushrooms on the road in your backpack! (tested last year while traveling through Europe - works wonders).

-not everyone wants shrooms for 'experiments'

I know. Some people have still not drawn any conclusions from Spitball, Strike etc. And of course there are always some DEA members of the HIVE who are very interested in larger scale methods and the people who use those. It is just not my cup of tea. I am of the opinion that illegal substances need to be destroyed in some way as soon as they are indentified as such. No distribution - no storage.

all techniques that ive ever heard of are contained here, for free. all you need to do is read all this stuff.

http://www.shroomery.com/findorgrowthem.php%5B/blue

]

That is the problem exactly ('read ALL this stuff'). It is too long and useful methods are mixed up with not useful ones. The manuals I mentioned contain just what you need to know to be successfull.

this i am baffled by...who told you this? most of the time the growing surface is completely covered with mycelium by the time pinning starts...and even if it isnt, by the time the mature mushroom drops spores and those germinate it will be totally overtaken with mycelium.


The germination of the new spores on top of mature mushroom caps happens in the stages as depicted on the first and the last picture you posted. In the first it is in the blue tray at the left. Spores often also germinate on the gills.

I dont know where you get your info from, but you need to check your sources..seriously.

I get my information of careful observation, followed by experimentation.

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

bujinkan

  • Guest
myc
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2002, 05:08:00 AM »
The germination of the new spores on top of mature mushroom caps happens in the stages as depicted on the first and the last picture you posted. In the first it is in the blue tray at the left. Spores often also germinate on the gills
I think you are confused about terminology or something....the first and last pics show open caps depositing spores on other caps under them. however, the spores there are not germinating...why would they? And the last place the spores would germinate is in the gills. this is where spores are created by the organism to be released into nature to find other nutrients to colonize.

Potency declines as a result of storage. Which is necessary if you do not use the harvest immediately. Bulksubstrate means 'a lot of substrate' and a big harvest.
Properly dried shrooms can last for months (and usually longer) without losing much potency. as long as you dont dry them with heat they lose little in the way of alkaloids and stay that way for a long time.
more to come later.

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

Yachaj

  • Guest
Applications of fungal autocannibalism
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2002, 06:21:00 AM »
the spores there are not germinating...why would they? And the last place the spores would germinate is in the gills. this is where spores are created by the organism to be released into nature to find other nutrients to colonize.

Fungal biomass actually is the best possible substrate for spore germination. Fungi are superb autorecyclers (it is the reason that yeast extracts as Marmite (tm) work so well as agar additive). Fungi use this quality to grow new organs by using their old organs as food. With bacteria, fungi share the feature that death is not a part of their normal life cycle. A part of the organism produces new spores, which often germinate on older parts of the mycelial mat (or mushrooms), which then are recycled. Spores have a much better chance for survival when they germinate on the mushrooms of their own species compared by a lonely germination on a cow pie in the midst of millions of contaminants.

If spores fall on the mycelial mat it is also possible that the hyphae which sprout from the spores 'invade' the mycelial network and take it over.

See for a full explanation of all the evolutionary advantages of fungal selfrecycling and genetic takeover strategies for instance the book of the British mycologist Alan Rayner:

Alan D. M. Rayner - DEGREES OF FREEDOM, Living in Dynamic Boundaries (especially chapter 5 p. 155-179)

The far majority of the germinated spores of cubensis and Pleurotus come to life on the gills.

Properly dried shrooms can last for months (and usually longer) without losing much potency.

Exactly. They loose some potency and are a legal hazard. Nothing beats fresh harvested mushrooms. Mushrooms which are not harvested and not grown for drugs but for instance to to study mushrooms or as ornamental are not illegal.

A good overview of reasons to choose Psilocybe cubensis as model-organism to study the growth of agaricales is in:

Edmond R. Badham - CULTURAL STUDIES ON THE MUSHROOM PSILOCYBE CUBENSIS (Ph.D. dissertation 1983, University Microfilms, Ann Arbor, Michigan)  

bibliopharmacophile

bujinkan

  • Guest
Exactly! Invitro ('mycro tek'] is the way to go.
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2002, 12:17:00 PM »
Exactly! Invitro ('mycro tek'] is the way to go. Finally a way to cultivate mushrooms on the road in your backpack! (tested last year while traveling through Europe - works wonders).
if thats what your needs or wants are then invitro is fine.
Not important. 'Effective' is good enough for me. Especially if it can be achieved by a more simple approach.

It is important. it reduces the likelyhood of contamination considerably. And with certain substrates its essential...like when you want to use birdeed for spawn.

as for your links on alkaloid content, all i see is two studies showing alkaloid contents at about .7...where is the average alk. content for mycro tek? all you allude to is cubes on brown rice, which were probably grown in a terrarium on rice cakes. Either i just dont get your point or its some kind of smokescreen.
I am of the opinion that illegal substances need to be destroyed in some way as soon as they are indentified as such. No distribution - no storage
my local DEA office feels the same way. :)

Spores have a much better chance for survival when they germinate on the mushrooms of their own species compared by a lonely germination on a cow pie in the midst of millions of contaminants
this paragraph can be interpreted many different ways...how old is the tissue that the spores are geminating on? how much, if any does this lend to the strength of the organism? logic dictates that the amount of building materials is the variable upon which the size, potency, and longevity of the organism depends the most..
and if you try to let shrooms rot in an indoor setup in order to let the mushroom recycle itself, youre going to have a contaminated mess, especially if you dont wash your hands.
and furthermore, what does any of this matter if you are doing an invitro tek? theres going to be very little spore dropping invitro.



If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

paranoid

  • Guest
a welcome clarification
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2002, 09:40:00 AM »
"I see and agree that I should have formulated my statement better. I should have written that a mycro (or should I write 'nano' here?) sterile environment is sufficient. You do not need a sterile environment which is big enough to live in (a sterile room), nor do you need a sterile environment which is big enough to stick your arms/hands in (glove box, flowhood). An environment which you can hold in your hands while standing in the kitchen is good enough."

This clarifies your intent immensely.  My interpretation was that you were implying a sterile environment wasn't necessary period.  My apologies for jumping on you so quickly, but it seemed that you were either completely out to lunch or about to launch into an advertisement for your own shroom grow setup.
::)

Yachaj

  • Guest
Short answers
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2002, 03:18:00 AM »
To paranoid: I understand. But do not worry I am not about to sell anything. Not on this site. About nano-sterile environments - the difference between no sterile environment and a miniature sterile environment evaporates at the moment that the size of the sterile environment is not much bigger than the cell wall of the spore/hyphe itself. That is what happens in nature and I am convinced that it will created artificially eventually. We just need to look&think deeper.

To bujinkan: You are right, I have no actual figures of the potency of cubensis on 'PF Substrate'. But PF Substrate is just powdered brown rice, vermiculite and water. I think it is OK to compare this to just brown rice, which resulted in cubensis of a potency of 1 percent in Gartz' publications.

with certain substrates [a pc] is essential...like when you want to use birdeed for spawn

Not if you mix the birdseed with something which makes the substrate more airy and use containers which do not exceed 250ml. But who needs birdseed?.

how old is the tissue that the spores are geminating on?

Usually the spores germinate on over-ripe mushrooms which are still alive enough to defend themselves (and the spores) against contaminants. The tops of the mushroom caps, where the spores land&germinate, are for the spores what egg yolk is for the embryo of an animal.

Wind&rain break off the over-ripe mushroom and bring it to new substrates - in this way the old mushroom cap becomes a platform from which new mycelium can grow out. BTW - one of the first underground cubensis cultivation techniques, titled FIELD GUIDE TO THE PSILOCYBIN MUSHROOM (1972), promoted the use of cubensis caps as spawn for compost outdoors!

To answer your question more completely I have done a little test this week with 5+ years old cubie tissue. Spores have no difficulty using it as substrate. Old mushrooms are a primo substrate ingredient. I have no figures yet of a PF-like substrate of just water, vermicuklite and cubensis powder but you made me curious. I will look into that!

if you try to let shrooms rot in an indoor setup in order to let the mushroom recycle itself, youre going to have a contaminated mess, especially if you dont wash your hands.

I think you misunderstand me. I do not promote to use the same substrate more than once. But I do advocate to allow spores to germinate on gills and over-ripe mushrooms, then transfer it to 'R. Wayne' substrates and cultivate without PC/hepa blower etc. But that is for oysters and the like, not cubensis. For cubensis the invitro PF TEK is easier.

And you will probably be surprised to learn that in 'invitro' setups, the mycelium often keeps recycling itself (&produce mushrooms!) until the momen that little more than just vermiculite remains.

and furthermore, what does any of this matter if you are doing an invitro tek? theres going to be very little spore dropping invitro.

On the contrary. But for a decent print you need to give the mushrooms enough headspace. A favorite approach of me is to use a longdrink glass as cultivation container, with a double thick contaminant barrier. When the substrate is colonized, most of the layer is decanted and the glass put upside down. Now there is plenty of space in the glass to allow a mushroom to mature and sporulate.

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

GOD

  • Guest
Not if you mix the birdseed with something which ...
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2002, 04:09:00 AM »
Not if you mix the birdseed with something which makes the substrate more airy and use containers which do not exceed 250ml. But who needs birdseed?.

someone who is looking to maximise yeilds beecause birdseed is WAY more nutrient dense, this equals more flushes and stronger shrooms.

with certain substrates [a pc] is essential...like when you want to use birdeed for spawn

Not if you mix the birdseed with something which makes the substrate more airy and use containers which do not exceed 250ml


You have obviously not worked with birdseed.  Although you have done alot of research, nothing beats actual experiance.  Open your mind, and give it a try, you might find that you can formulate an even better plan.

the difference between no sterile environment and a miniature sterile environment evaporates at the moment that the size of the sterile environment is not much bigger than the cell wall of the spore/hyphe itself. That is what happens in nature and I am convinced that it will created artificially eventually.

What exactly happens in nature?  I dont understand what your trying to say, but there are way too many environmental factors in nature to reproduce in an artificial setting, too many organisms, systems etc.. that come into play out in the wild.  Chaos theory applies here.  Indoor cultivation needs sterile environment because indoors breed way way too many competitors in such an enclosed environment.

Go ahead and give your method a try.  Please dont misunderstand whats happening here, there appears to bee a few among us who have a fair amount of experiance.  I know swims motivation for replying in such a way is to save both swiy and any other inexperianced bees time money energy and frustration. 

Sterility is the number one stumbling block for beginners IMO, and trying to shoot for shortcuts right off the bat WILL lead to frustration.  It would bee a shame if some newbees read this thread without seeing the conflicting responces your proposal deserves. 

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

bujinkan

  • Guest
Open your mind, and give it a try, you might find ...
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2002, 09:07:00 AM »
Open your mind, and give it a try, you might find that you can formulate an even better plan
Hear here! good advice. I think, yachaj, that you are being resistant to bulk techniques prematurely....of course to each his own, but birdseed, dung and the like are really not that complicated. THEY DO, require however, experience in being sterile and how to know what is contaminated and what is not. i would go the route all us newb growers go..PFtek, cakes in fishtank terrarium or something, to simple casings or outdoor spawn, to more complicated agar involved strain isolation casing techniques. birdseed and grains will give you many more flushes due to higher nutrient density..period.
the only excuses for using invitro are: experimentation, lack of space, or security. it is effective, but only to a certain degree.
as far as the mushroom spores germinating on caps...well lets just say you should solidify your readings on the matter. i can see where you are assuming things you shouldnt about what is said in studies.  

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

goiterjoe

  • Guest
birdseed?
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2002, 01:05:00 PM »
what's so great about birdseed?  I've seen better results from brown rice flour than from birdseed, although they weren't grown under identical conditions.  Is everyone here recommending birdseed over other grains?

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

bujinkan

  • Guest
finch seed substrate
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2002, 01:31:00 PM »
actually mixtures work best: for example finch seed, brown rice and flax seed meal.

http://www.shroomery.org/findorgrowthem.php?View=docs&doc=33


This one aims at complete nutritional balancing using quinoa, flax, finch seed, brown rice and rye.
 

http://www.shroomery.org/findorgrowthem.php?View=docs&doc=117



Birdseed is most useful for spawn, but makes a great substrate if you have a pressure cooker.

http://www.shroomery.org/findorgrowthem.php?View=docs&doc=117



If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

GOD

  • Guest
swim is, most definatly.
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2002, 01:34:00 PM »
swim is, most definatly.
Thing is with birdseed, is that the seeds have that thick, hard shell- ya gotta get the shell soaked, so that moisture can peirce through it, and thus make it so that the insides are exposed to the moisture so that when its pressurecooked/sterilized, the insides get hit properly.  Too much moisture, and the seed becomes mush making it clumpy and hard to airate, also making it more prone to bacterial contams.  Too little moisture, the inside stays dry and doesnt get sterilized.  Throughout the whole process, its vitally important to make sure theres an even distribution of moisture for said reasons, that means bee anal mixing.  Swim stopped his mycology experiments a while back, and no longer has his notes regarding amounts used- but from what he remembers, he used pennin#$@n brand finch seed from wallys whacky fun place, he didnt feel the need to remove the sunflowerseeds, although they could bee skimmed off the top during the presoak (remember to stir).  He initially got his seed, did a presoak, keeping track of how much water was used for the presoak (simmering ~45min to an hour keeping the seeds covered in simmering water) swiy will probably have to add h2o as it soaks- the seeds will expand quite a bit- strained the seed, and rinsed it with cold water (or else itd bee too sticky with sugar all over it and itd bee more likely to clump up- also added a small amount of crushed gypsum, about two table spoons to 9L of substrate as a pH buffer and to help clumpyness) then he p.cooked ~1 hour 15 min to 1 hour 30 min.  He then took 100 or 1000 grams of this, and baked it in the oven until absolute dryness.  He subtracted the weight and got the moisture content.  He used the moisture content required that was listed in stamets book- and then added coarse vermic to adjust and achieve proper moisture levels.  Then, when he went back to start making up the substrate for real, hed add a little less water to the pot for the presoak, and add that quantity to the vermic so that it wouldnt bee dry when it went through the p.cooker- just a small amount is needed for this.  Bee careful when pre-soaking, if swiy sees exploded kernals, its a good indication that he isnt stirring enough, remove them if swiy sees them as these make for clumpyness and bacterial contams.  Remember not to pack the substrate.

and thats all I have to say about that...

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

bujinkan

  • Guest
grain spawn 101
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2002, 01:42:00 PM »

http://www.shroomery.org/findorgrowthem.php?View=docs&doc=123


grain spawn 101.


If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

Chicken

  • Guest
Substrate
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2002, 03:20:00 PM »
A rye grain mixed with verticulite (sp?), has yeilded the best results, VS a birdseed, rice, or soy based substrate.  Liquid innoculation was utilized as well as an autoclave, open flame sterilization of tools, all growth was contained within an inncubator made of a converted chest freezer, with HEPA filtration.  All items were easily obtained at industrial surplus stores.  Rye grain is much superior.  Add some erythromyacin (sp?) (available on internet)to the substrate and you will have better luck yet. All substrate was also autoclaved.   Rye flour doesn't work as well as using whole rye grains.  Try it and you will see.  Always was hands 10 minutes with antibacterial soap, and brush nails.  Always use HEPA filter, quatranary ammonia, and UV light when innoculating.  Always use liquid innoculation.  Growth on AGAR plates is possible and viable way to do a non-clone liquid innoculation.  Grown on A Typic soy broth /w erythoromyacin, and then transfered to liquid inocuilation technique.  You will be suprise with results.  Rye grain leaves al others in dust.


GOD

  • Guest
hows the tan?.... UV sterilization BEFORE ...
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2002, 03:54:00 PM »
hows the tan?....

UV sterilization BEFORE innoculation, not during.
Im gonna bow outta this thread now, Ive already given my 2 cents and dont feel the need to continually repeat myself.  Hopefully, Im not coming across as my way is the right way- but please folks... its all good and well when you put alot of research into a project like this, but please dont claim to know what your talking about- or offer techniques that you havent first tried yourself.
  Its like the blind leading the blind. 8)  ::)  :(  >:(

ps- regarding storage, get yo ass a container, and dump in the shrooms, then perform a co2 releasing reaction over the container (co2 sinks) (forget how to do it...baking soda and vinegar?) -obviously, shrooms should bee bone dry first.  Test to make certain the container is filled w/co2 by lighting a match and lowering it into the box- if it is full, the match will extinguish due to lack of oxygen.  Seal it air-tight and put 'em in a cool environment- whala, they will store INDEFINATLY.

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha
edit last point before I leave:

But the agar can be used to clean (molecular filter) the mycelium after the transfer! The technique is called bottom inoculation, it is very useful in cloning and it goes like this. Cut a small square of agar out of the uninoculated, fresh dish/ jar and place it next to the hole it leaves behind. Now place the piece of transferred mycelium (or a primordium) in the hole, and the square of virgin agar right on top of it. Make sure that the mycelium/primordium still has an entry to some air.

This technique may work for bacteria, but only if said mycelium has already been exposed to the peroxide and developed the proper enzymes.  A sterile environment is nessisary to transfer the culture to the awaiting peroxide treated agar.  At the point of transfer, if a foreighn fungus decides to attach itself to the culture, it can piggyback and grow through right along with the cubensis mycelium.  Your proposed method would work IF the peroxide treated agar specifically killed off all other forms of mycelium save cubensis, but it is not, it only kills off the spores etc...

goiterjoe

  • Guest
ok, next question
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2002, 09:19:00 PM »
Is there anyone here supporting setting up an operation for cultivating mycelium on agar for extraction?  I attempted this once, but had to disband due to a lack of sterile space to operate with.  It seems like you could run a large setup using this method very efficiently, and the only problem that might occur is with keeping sterility.  This eliminates the need for a fruiting chamber, and the extraction would be very efficient compared to fruiting.

Has anyone tried bulk agar cultivation and extraction?  If so, did you use homemade potato dextrose or was it storebought?

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

bujinkan

  • Guest
i doubt you could get enough for an extraction..
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2002, 09:51:00 PM »
i doubt you could get enough for an extraction..its always been that fruiting them is the only way to get an acceptable amount for extraction...especially since psilocin/psilocybin contents are low even in late stage mycelium.

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

Vibrating_Lights

  • Guest
links
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2002, 10:19:00 PM »
Can any one give a link that describes the psilobin production in Mushrooms.  How it happens What are the building blocks the fungus uses.  And especially any gene research reguarding using a biosynth pathway making use of a living orginism and altering it's genes.
VL_

So much game I could sell a hooker some pussy
Vl_

bujinkan

  • Guest
Post 184209 offhand i dont know where to find ...
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2002, 12:00:00 AM »

Post 184209

(PolytheneSam: "Enhanced Psilocybin Production", Tryptamine Chemistry)

offhand i dont know where to find what youre looking for, but you might find it in this thread, or at least an alternative. :)

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

Yachaj

  • Guest
GOD on birdseed
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2002, 04:32:00 AM »
You have obviously not worked with birdseed.  Although you have done alot of research, nothing beats actual experiance.  Open your mind, and give it a try, you might find that you can formulate an even better plan.

GOD, from someone who is forwarding 2nd hand knowledge about mushroom cultivation and does not really have read the manuals he says he quotes I would expect a less arrogant tone.

I have used birdseed&millet many times as spawn. But as cubensis fruiting substrate it is not superb.

I mean - mix 2 volume parts of vermiculite, 1 volume part of powdered brown rice, 1 volume part of tapwater until it is moist and airy. Put everyting in a 250ml shotglass. Top it off with a layer of dry vermiculite of two fingers deep&cover with aluminium foil. Boil for 1 hour in milkpan, cool down & inject sporewater. After a couple of weeks 15-20 percent of the dry weight of the rice is converted in dried cubensis with unopened caps. Potency = 0.5g of dried mushrooms yield a +2 Shulgin Scale.

Besides the inoculation and harvesting it is all completely maintenance free. Drying is not even needed since the mushrooms can be preserved for 3 months at 4 centigrade in unharvested, not-illegal fresh condition (put the glass in th fridge until you are ready for them). After the glass is put at roomtemp, harvest the mushrooms within 48 hours and leave the glass alone. New shrooms come up soon.

I really do no think that a millet (main ingredient of birdseed) technique can improve all that in simplicity and performance (as is evidenced by your own write-up).

This is especially the case when cubensis genotypes are used which are selected for 'PF Substrate' and grown on it, from spores (not tissueculture), for generation after generation after generation for over a decade.

In short - GOD you have no idea what you are talking about. Keep your subjects to the things you are good at.

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

bujinkan

  • Guest
have used birdseed&millet many times as spawn.
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2002, 04:47:00 AM »
have used birdseed&millet many times as spawn. But as cubensis fruiting substrate it is not superb.
How did you use it as spawn? did you sterilize with a pressure cooker?

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

Yachaj

  • Guest
This technique may work for bacteria, but only if ...
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2002, 04:49:00 AM »
This technique may work for bacteria, but only if said mycelium has already been exposed to the peroxide and developed the proper enzymes.  A sterile environment is nessisary to transfer the culture to the awaiting peroxide treated agar.  At the point of transfer, if a foreighn fungus decides to attach itself to the culture, it can piggyback and grow through right along with the cubensis mycelium.  Your proposed method would work IF the peroxide treated agar specifically killed off all other forms of mycelium save cubensis, but it is not, it only kills off the spores etc...

GOD stop talking *theory*. Bottom inoculation works. In a total unsterile room. Yes a wedge of mycelium can be cut from an agar plate and transferred to a virgin peroxidated agarplate. All table-top no HEPA no glovebox no PC.

See the slideshow at

http://www.mycomasters.com/Slideshow.html



Now get some real experience before you post dammit!

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

Yachaj

  • Guest
How did you use it as spawn?
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2002, 04:57:00 AM »
How did you use it as spawn? did you sterilize with a pressure cooker?

At first I did. But later I learned that a mixtures of
- millet and chopped wheatstraw
- millet and beech chips

can be sterilized in a milkpan. Sterilized defined as 'from a dozen of shotglasses not a single one got contaminated in two weeks after the boiling treatment'. Glasses were put on the tv in the living room during that time.

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

Yachaj

  • Guest
Tyndallization
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2002, 05:01:00 AM »
Oops - this just popped in when I entered my previous post.

I think my milkpan sterilization was successfull because the millet was boiled&drained one day before the sterilization in the glass with beechchips.

This was done to prevent water collection on the bottom, but it resulted in a double boilingtime, separated by a 24hour period at roomtemperature aka. 'Tyndallization'!

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

bujinkan

  • Guest
the slideshow is about wood loving species.
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2002, 05:03:00 AM »
the slideshow is about wood loving species. the substrate consists of fiber pellets, sawdust, etc. Sterility isnt as key an issue with substrates such as these since the range of potential contaminants is considerably smaller. what species of shroom were you considering using with these techniques?


Yachaj, hydrogen peroxide is used often to battle off certain contaminants in casings and such....cobweb mold for example. it is a well known fact that h202 does inhibit mycelium growth...not completely but it does nontheless.

 


If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

bujinkan

  • Guest
oh where do i begin
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2002, 05:39:00 AM »
I mean - mix 2 volume parts of vermiculite, 1 volume part of powdered brown rice, 1 volume part of tapwater until it is moist and airy. Put everyting in a 250ml shotglass. Top it off with a layer of dry vermiculite of two fingers deep&cover with aluminium foil. Boil for 1 hour in milkpan, cool down & inject sporewater. After a couple of weeks 15-20 percent of the dry weight of the rice is converted in dried cubensis with unopened caps. Potency = 0.5g of dried mushrooms yield a +2 Shulgin Scale.

Besides the inoculation and harvesting it is all completely maintenance free. Drying is not even needed since the mushrooms can be preserved for 3 months at 4 centigrade in unharvested, not-illegal fresh condition (put the glass in th fridge until you are ready for them). After the glass is put at roomtemp, harvest the mushrooms within 48 hours and leave the glass alone. New shrooms


uhm. ok. for those that dont know, he is talking here about growing 'invitro'. (or at least we are led to assume so) What this means is that while normally the 'cake' of mycelium is removed from its container and placed into a terrarium prior to pinning, using the invitro technique the mycelium cake is left inside the container. I have done this before...and yes, it does work. what you get is usually a mass of stems and some unopened caps. The stems do push themselves around substrate and you will get some, but space is still limited, so size and quantity of your shrooms are reduced. If you harvest once then replace, you run a good risk of contaminating your cake..
the statement about drying not being needed is not very accurate.. you can store them, but if you induced pinning then there will be rot, even in low temps. (that is if the mold doesnt get them first)
fresh mushrooms are illegal in many places because they do contain psilocybin and psilocin...i dont know what country you are from but here in the US storing shrooms like that is legally the same as having the same amount dried, except you might also get in trouble for the obvious cultivation that is going on.
 

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

GOD

  • Guest
Oh Jesus... You lured me back.
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2002, 05:43:00 AM »
Oh Jesus...

You lured me back. 
Its worth bad karma for me to say this (actually, I think I desirve good karma for it), so listen to what I have to say, and if anything hurts your feelings or threatens your ego too bad.

First off, when swim refers to second hand experiance, and follows it up with a  ;) , that means its beeing said tounge in cheek you moron.

Second, just because this is mainly a chemistry forum, does not mean that there arent bee's floating around who havent done other things, dont think that your impressing anyone coming here with a bunch of bullshit that you tacked together because your too damned lazy to go about doing things the right way -or doing things at all for that matter.  Coming here and doing this crap is wasting both our time, your time, and bandwidth.  Im sorry to say, it does NOT make you look intelligent (if thats what your trying to do) and your only contribution to this forum is wasting other peoples time, energy and possibly money. Actually, if someone reads through the entire thread, and see's how everybody responds to your proposal, and actually follows through with it- they probably desirve the frustration.

When I first started replying to your posts, I could tell IMMEDIATLY that you had not tried what you are talking about, because I assumed that most people wouldnt go through so much effort to intentionally make misinforming posts.  You have been corrected on numerous holes in your proposed plan -yet you persist.  Ask yourself 'why?' if your capable.  My bet is that you wont because you are too concearned about how you appear to a bunch of faceless computer geeks to actually step back and take some constructive critisism. 

I am done wasting my time arguing technical points with you, as it is apparent you dont know what your talking about (editted).  

MODS: please, either lock this thread or put some of those fancy labels on this crap this guy is wasting bandwidth with.  Its misinforming.


"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

bujinkan

  • Guest
Suffice it to say
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2002, 05:59:00 AM »
Suffice it to say that any interested newb seeing this thread should do some reading of their own. Yachaj presents many ideas, some of which are inefficient, some of which are outdated, most of which will lead you to disappointing contaminations. As much as we would like to get around sterile practice in mushroom cultivation, we cant. theres no substitute for cleanliness.
In my experience, the greatest yeilds, photo verified, have come from straw, dung or millet casings. period. 
I cant make sense of yachajs points either, and it seems he is trying to put forth several techniques at once. at best they serve to muddle newbees ideas on mush cult.

I agree that the thread should be locked, since yachaj doesnt want to seem to stop manipulating facts and posting unrelated links solely for the sake of prolonging an argument...which is what i believe is happening here.

if you are interested in shroom growing and are new, read this stuff:
Magic Mushroom Growers Guide..essential reading.

http://www.shroomery.org/findorgrowthem.php?View=docs&doc=16



  a pf tek overview from Anno: As soon as you cultivate mushrooms indoor on artificially prepared substrate you create conditions than not only favor the growth of the mushrooms you attempt to grow but also of an immense number of other organisms, many of them hazardous to the health.
To make sure that only the chosen mushroom is cultivated, it is of great importance to assure cleanliness in all growing related procedures.
Before work wash your hands with antibacterial soap and warm water, afterwards wipe dry rub with Lysol or isopropyl-alcohol.Keep the rooms where you do the inoculation and fruiting dust free and clean and don´t bring in dirty clothing or shoes. Equally important is personal hygiene, dirty hair for instance is a hotbed for all kinds of unwanted microorganisms which can do much harm to your cultivation project, same with dirty hands.

(from the article:

http://www.fungifun.com/pf/pf_en.htm

)

http://shroomery.org/faq/faq.php?list=all&prog=1&lang=en




heres some links on birdseed and whole grains

http://www.mycotopia.net/teks/birdseed.html


http://www.theforestfloor.org/archives/drooldonkey_teks/quartjars.html


Yachaj

  • Guest
Try me!
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2002, 12:13:00 PM »

Bujinkanwhat species of shroom were you considering using with these techniques?

Oysters, Hericium, King Stropharia and other wood loving Psilocybes. A peroxidated mixture of wood pellets and maltose/marmite broth supports sclerotia production of Ps. tampanensis as well.

hydrogen peroxide is used often to battle off certain contaminants in casings and such....cobweb mold for example.

...unfortunately that doesn't work too well. The reason is that the peroxide is deactivated by the enzymes of the mycelium. So if a mold, any mold, is already past the spore germination stage then peroxide is of no help! 

it is a well known fact that h202 does inhibit mycelium growth...not completely but it does nontheless.

Only when a mycelium first contacts a substrate which is rich in peroxide. But it adapts fast. A plate of h2o2 agar is colonized in just as many days as a plate of non-peroxidated agar. Plus, peroxide helps in breaking down the substrate too. In some cases the net effect can be an acceleration of mycelial growth!

[the invitro method] does work. what you get is usually a mass of stems and some unopened caps. The stems do push themselves around substrate and you will get some, but space is still limited, so size and quantity of your shrooms are reduced.

Whoa! The efficiency I mentioned about (15-20 percent of the dry weight of the brown rice powder converted into dry mushrooms) was achieved with this method (and a suitable mushroom genotype - PF Stropharia)! About the look of the mushrooms which are cultivated in this style: once they are dried you can not see the difference between mushrooms which were grown in a terrarium and mushrooms which were grown in the jars. In-jar grown mushrooms are only a bit more loaded with vermiculite so some more cleaning is desired (wash them in tapwater with about 1g/liter of vitaminC to prevent premature blueing).

If you harvest once then replace, you run a good risk of contaminating your cake.

The chances of a cake getting contaminated in a terrarium is way bigger compared to a cake in the jar. The inside of a jar has less surface and is easier to keep/wipe clean when you take the cake out.

fresh mushrooms are illegal in many places because they do contain psilocybin and psilocin

First of all - the legality of mushrooms is always theoretical. I think we can both agree on this. I suppose that in the case of a bust a box of growing Shiitake mushrooms will also be seized to be discussed in court later. The point is just to not get busted.

But on a 'theoretical' level there is a big difference between mushrooms which are harvested and mushrooms which are not. At least in Europe. Jars with mushrooms which still are growing can be distributed via flourists and the like, just as peyote cacti. But 'harvesting' as well as 'packaging' is considered a way of 'preparation' (for consumption).

The presence of a schedule 1 compound in botanical material doesn't make it immediately illegal. San Pedro cacti can be ordered all over the US.

The 'storage' method I described for cubensis -putting the jars in the fridge at the moment that the mushrooms usually are picked- is more a kind of delayed harvesting. It is only possible when the mushrooms are grown ínvitro since mushrooms which grow in trays or open jars will dry out in the fridge. To my knowledge, the method I proposed is the only one which can keep mushrooms in primo condition for three months. Post-harvest storage of fresh mushrooms is for a week, perhaps one and a half week, at most.

if you are interested in shroom growing and are new, read this stuff:
Magic Mushroom Growers Guide..essential reading.

http://www.shroomery.org/findorgrowthem.php?View=docs&doc=16%5B/blue

]

In that case, do not forget to read the critiques at

http://www.fanaticus.com/critque.htm


http://www.fanaticus.com/flame.txt



Bot he author of the MMGG and Anno Fungifun have only contributed in making a simple technique more complicated.

GOD:First off, when swim refers to second hand experiance, and follows it up with a ;) that means its beeing said tounge in cheek you moron.


I see. In that case I recommend to update your techniques so your expertise becomes visible in your posts as well. A *lot* of things have changed the last decade. But since practical mycology is a very conservative branch of science I do not expect that the new methods will drip trough in a day or two. But all things I wrote in this thread about the new techniques are tested&true!

Hint: get experienced with non-psilocybians. It is totally legal but the same rules apply (except for the PF TEK, which only works well with cubensis). Oyster mycelium may be useful for absorbing&decomposing dilute solvents. Large scale cultivation of those can be useful!
 
your too damned lazy to go about doing things the right way

Right On! I fully agree with that! But you should say 'the established way', not 'the right' way. The right way is always the best possible way for the moment (until a better one is invented). The best possible way is the most efficient way. And the most efficient techniques demand the least possible amount of work/energy for a given endproduct. For that, lazyness is more fruitful than being conservative (aping techniques from old books).

Im sorry to say, it does NOT make you look intelligent (if thats what your trying to do)

I do not think I am more intelligent than most people here. But I am almost sure that I am more experienced in non-pc, non-hepablower mushroom cultivation techniques than anyone else here. Unfortunately I do not know anything about the synthetic things one can do in a biochemistry lab due to lack of experience. Exchange in knowledge is what I am after. Not looking intelligent.

Btw GOD - your arrogant writing style is kind of typical for chem guys. They always seem to look down upon biologists. Please change that. Biologists migh be needed to solve or at least scaling down the complexity of the biggest puzzles of the Hive (the lysergics). 

I could tell IMMEDIATLY that you had not tried what you are talking about

See what I mean? But guess again!

You have been corrected on numerous holes in your proposed plan -yet you persist.

See what I mean? But it is not a plan but proven methods I am writing about. The point is that you simply do not want to put my words to the test. Perhaps that you have enough 'authority' here to get a mod to lock this thread. But then you would be the sam as Louis Pasteur a century ago, who used his authority to make people swear that enzymes didn't exist (or loose their scientific credentials). It set back developemtns of techniques for decades.

So if you think I am a lyer, disprove me by experiment. Not by calling your mum or the mods to lock me out.

with love from

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

GOD

  • Guest
Seeing as how, for some reason, you are refusing ...
« Reply #48 on: September 05, 2002, 04:41:00 PM »
Seeing as how, for some reason, you are refusing to accept private messages, you leave me no other choice but to post this here:

  Why dont you take your 'revolutionary' technique over to the shroomery?  Youll catch a much better reaming over there than I could possibly give.  Oh wait, thats probably why you brought that shit here in the first place- you probably thought that youd have an unedjucated and inexperianced audience.
  You try and come off like youve discovered something new...  I saw, that peroxide shit about 3 years ago and got the manual.  Great for woodlovers, but impracticle for pc.  Ive got a news flash for ya, just because you read a few books, it doesnt mean that you know what your talking about.  Your posts prove that.  There is a tremendous differece between 'booksmarts' and real-life experiance.  'Introducing' it (peroxide manual, pf tek, invitro) here at the hive is one thing, but youve taken bits and peices of a bunch of different techniques- techniques that work, when performed correctly, and mixed them together to build a process that WILL end in failure.  Like I origionally said, its commendable that youve taken the time, done all of this research, and pulled up some archaic referances (even though 'we' are supposivly living in the dark ages when it comes to cultivation...).  You act as if YOU have made some revolutionary discovery regarding cultivation, and us oldtimers are merely beeing resistant to change.  Thing is, we have already seen those techniques, PLUS we understand the mechanics behind them, your theory (your disjointed collage of these techniques) has so many holes in it, I dont know where to begin to try and fix it up so that it would actually work in real life (following the main premise that 'no sterile environment is needed...period')
  Its too bad, your other posts pertaining to LSD precursors had inspired some hope- its a disappointment because you have now discredited yourself.
  You do all this research, so that you have some big words to throw around.  Ive seen your type many many times- you might dazzle the unedjucated, but once you run into someone whos compitent you are exposed as the phoney bullshitter that you are.
  Im not an arrogant person, in fact, Im quite patient and benevolent.  I showed quite a bit of restraint at the beggining of that thread so as not to embarras you or outright call you on your bullshit.  How dare you take advantage of my generosity (to help you learn) and try and discredit me just so you can try and impress the unedjucated.

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

goiterjoe

  • Guest
psylocybin content of mycelia
« Reply #49 on: September 05, 2002, 05:56:00 PM »
especially since psilocin/psilocybin contents are low even in late stage mycelium.


I was under the impresssion that the psylocybin content of the fungus would never increase after the medium was fully colonized, and that mushrooms merely transported the psylocybin out of the cake.  I have read a book that said the same thing; I think it was written by Adam Gottlieb.

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

GOD

  • Guest
shrooms will gain in alkaloid content up until ...
« Reply #50 on: September 05, 2002, 06:37:00 PM »
shrooms will gain in alkaloid content up until right around when the veil starts to break, after that the shroom continues to grow, but alkaloid content doesnt increase in the fruitbody.

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

paranoid

  • Guest
Perspective
« Reply #51 on: September 05, 2002, 10:41:00 PM »
Ok guys, putting this in perspective - Why would you even want to not bother with sterilization.

A - it's not that hard to do
B - It will inevitably increase the chances of success, regardless of technique
C - it's not that hard to do (just reinforcing this)

Seriously, I don't understand why anyone would even risk not keeping previously sterilized media in a non-sterile environment.  With practise it's really not that hard to do(again!).

goiterjoe

  • Guest
I'm not talking about the fruit
« Reply #52 on: September 05, 2002, 10:43:00 PM »
I'm not looking to fruit the mushroom.  I know for a fact that mycelia contains plenty of psylocybin for extraction, as I've done it before.  hell, don't tell me nobody here has made tea with cakes before.

Can anyone confirm that alkaloid content of the mycelium doesn't increase once colonization is complete?

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

GOD

  • Guest
within the cake itself, I can honestly not say, ...
« Reply #53 on: September 06, 2002, 12:24:00 AM »
within the cake itself, I can honestly not say, obviously there is good stuff in there because you can bruise it by merely spraying water on it.  I would imagine that you are correct because after its colonised, and its recieved the right signals, it puts all of its energy into producing fruit.  If these signals where not recieved, even non-sclerotia bearing species like pc will start forming thick packets of mycelium (swim has noticed that these packets hardly bruise, even when picked and broken open).  Once its fully grown, and if its not recieving air exchange/light and cold shock- it goes into a sort of hybernation mode, but still eats up nutrients and moisture from the substrate.  If left more than a few weeks to a month or two- depending on how nutrient dense the substrate is(longer if refridgerated, but if one is going to fruit after that, expect diminished yeilds) the cake will eventually dry up and die.
  If swim where to cultivate cakes in order to extract, hed definatly go with tampensis, and shoot for sclerotia.  He assumes that one would bee doing this to either avoid the hassle of learning growing perameters (much easier), or to avoid having to use a terrarium for securities sake- or both.  Growing out pc just to extract the cake is a major waste IMO, as there is soooo much more good stuff produced (for extraction if thats your thing) from the fruits.
Tampensis....

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

Yachaj

  • Guest
Why dont you take your 'revolutionary' technique ...
« Reply #54 on: September 06, 2002, 06:47:00 AM »
Why dont you take your 'revolutionary' technique over to the shroomery?  Youll catch a much better reaming over there than I could possibly give.  Oh wait, thats probably why you brought that shit here in the first place- you probably thought that youd have an unedjucated and inexperianced audience.

As you could have known if you only had checked - I do post at the Shroomery! But the Shroomery has a big disadvantage. Most of its members are people who do not understand the techniques which they are using. It is a good place for vendors to hawk their products (and for newbies to meet eachother) but not a place to have a fruitful exchange of useful ideas. I hoped to find a more educated community here.

I never wrote that I had discovered a revolutionary technique so you might as well leave out the inverted comma signs. All I am saying is that if two existing, proven techniques are combined (the PF TEK and the peroxide method) fungi can be cultivated on an unsterile table top. Indeed pretty revolutionary but not my invention. It isn't even the invention of Rush Wayne - the original discovery that substrates which contain a tiny bit of hydrogen peroxide do not need extra sterilization maesures was published in 1947 and then forgotten. Because of oldtimers beeing resistant to change, yes.

But imagine what can be done if a lab (flowhood and pressure canner) are not needed. Mushroom cultivation can become a welcome addition to agriculture/permaculture in developing countries. I will not go into details here because this is a drug forum, not an agricultural one. But yes i am convinced that scientific developments are slowed down by people who think they know everyting, like you.

Why don't you just restrict your posts to the subjects you are a specialist in - like I do? 

I saw, that peroxide shit about 3 years ago and got the manual.

Excellent! I am sure you can impress friends with an extensive bookshelf. When are you going to read it? I agree that peroxide is not needed for a PF TEK setup, but for any setup in which agarplates (and/or bulksubstrates) are used the peroxide enables the cultivator to do everyting in the kitchen.

I already wrote that these methods can be very useful for the lysergic hobbyists around here. Of what I have read I understand that the limited amount of available lysergic acid is the main reason that so few Hive chemists are in the position to do the desired experiments.

With the peroxide methods, working with paspali without the risk for contamination (a risk which becomes enormous when agitated liquid cultures enter the picture) is as simple as
making instant coffee. With the 'established' methods you think you know all about small scale lysergic acid production will always be a skill which only a very few will acquire.

youve taken bits and peices of a bunch of different techniques- techniques that work, when performed correctly, and mixed them together to build a process that WILL end in failure.

If you perform it perhaps, but that is probably because you do not read the texts you buy. I am using the peroxide manuals to make spawn for and grow woodchip loving mushrooms outdoors for about 4 years now.      

Im quite patient and benevolent.  I showed quite a bit of restraint at the beggining of that thread so as not to embarras you or outright call you on your bullshit.  How dare you take advantage of my generosity (to help you learn) and try and discredit me just so you can try and impress the unedjucated.

I think your extremely inflated ego is best illustrated by quotes like that one (and your Hive name of course).

always an atheïst,

Yachaj
 

bibliopharmacophile

bujinkan

  • Guest
yachaj, i dont have to time to yet again argue ...
« Reply #55 on: September 06, 2002, 09:22:00 AM »
yachaj, i dont have to time to yet again argue all your rediculous misinformational posts, needless to say, GOD had it correct when he said take your concepts to the shroomery, where everyone will ream you, not just god and i.

You are not an expert in growing mushrooms, this was made evident by your comment on sterility from the get go. Then you proceeded to tell me thta spores germinate in the gills...youve said so much bullshit that i cant even remember all of it. You used half pint jars for birdsees spawn eh? even with your double sterilization you should have had at **least** 10 percent contamination. how much of this stuff did you make up?
SOmebee  said that "why not have a sterile environment: its not difficult"
amen to that! Going against the grain is fine if you do proper research, and use unified logic to test your theories....
so you post on the shroomery?
when i get back to a permanent internet portal im going to take a few of your posts and put them on the shroomery...then ill paste some of the more colorful replies here.  Im sure that your comments on cleanliness and sterility will be very popular.

If I'm reading this correctly, and I like to think that I am.....

GOD

  • Guest
All I am saying is that if two existing, proven ...
« Reply #56 on: September 06, 2002, 12:29:00 PM »
All I am saying is that if two existing, proven techniques are combined (the PF TEK and the peroxide method) fungi can be cultivated on an unsterile table top.

Yes, I heard you...You are saying that "IF" two existing, proven...  You are not saying "when" -that says an aweful lot about where you are coming from.  His peroxide method is sutable for woodlovers, pc is NOT a woodlover, it is a grain lover.  Grains are much much more difficult to sterilise.  How hard is it to comprehend 1+1 does not equal three?  Even in that peroxide manual, he states that the peroxide technique STILL requires sterilization for certain areas, especially in the beggining-transferring culture that has not yet developed the enzymes for dealing with the peroxide (see? I done read the thing), this doesnt even account for the process you have to go through to aquire CLEAN contaminant-free mycelium (and yes, sterility is also a big factor when innoculating for invitro tec).  This is where you introduce your 'revolutionary' observation that it is not needed, going against the EXPERIANCE of the entire mushroom cultivating industry.  This experiance has been aquired by making the same, newbee-assed mistake you are proposing here.  Do you think your the only one whos ever tried to take shortcuts?  Do you think your the only one who has tried to take the easy way out?  Whos beeing arrogant and egotistical?  The only difference here- is that there are several hundreds, thousands of people who have actually tried theories like this, and they (myself included) have come back with shitty results.  You, have spent hours upon hours sitting on your ass and reading- youve built this idea based on hopes of not having to invest $30 bucks on a pressure cooker, and its too much for your frail little ego to accept the fact that you might bee wrong.  Youll never know either, because you will never actually get off your ass and try it out.  BTW, Id just love to see some pictures of some pins growing out of the gills of a mushroom.  If its biological fact that your spewing, there MUST bee some pictures around somewhere.  Funny, Ive never seen such a thing.  Ive seen mutants...but the pins come from the mat, or top of the cap- never seen 'em coming out the gills...  Lets see you scramble and bullshit your way out of that one...
  Even in the pf tek, they state that sterilization is nessisary, and no, the reason why the pf tek is successful is NOT because of the overwhelming amount of spores compared to contaminants (although high spore content does help reduce contamination because it burns through the substarate faster, and the MYCELIUM can overwhelm contaminants...another clear indication that you havent done anything but read, this phenominon can actually bee observed, where as contaminated syringes will kick out cakes that dont colonise, or will bee overrun with contamination).  There, I broke it down for you, all nice and simple-like.

Why don't you just restrict your posts to the subjects you are a specialist in - like I do?

___________________________________________________________
bibliopharmacophile

Say, what does that awesome tag of yours mean anyway?

-That is exactly what Im doing, actually- I am not a specialist although swim has had quite a bit of experiance in this area.  Id ask you to do the same:

Why dont you at least bee a little more honest and preface your post with: I am an avid reader, and although I think these thechniques will work, I have not actually tested them myself, so to all of you do-bees out there, take note.  I know thats not too much to ask of someone as humble as yourself.

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha

Morbid_o

  • Guest
As much as i would enjoy joining in the reaming, ...
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2002, 08:24:00 PM »
As much as i would enjoy joining in the reaming, GOD and Buji seem to be doing a fine job(yknow..drawing on experience).
suffice to say:
if you aren't careful with sterilization, some of your cakes will look like this:

and some will look like this:

(not mine.)

"...a world in which opiates have become the religion of the masses."
-Neil Gaiman, American Gods

goiterjoe

  • Guest
bad cakes
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2002, 12:53:00 AM »
the second picture looks more like the cakes were left in the canning jars too long than contamination.  Excess water also seem to be a problem with the second set.

All paths are the same: they lead nowhere

Yachaj

  • Guest
OK One More Time
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2002, 04:38:00 AM »
This is becoming a yes&no game so this is my last post on this subject.

I do not care about what the 'entire mushroom industry' thinks. The methods as I have described do work. Between 2000 and 2001 several thousend of kg's of Pleurotus ostreatus were grown this way in Shinyalu (near Kakamega Rainforest, West Kenya). Which was the complete oyster mushroom production of Kenya that year. It was this project which gave me all the confidence I have showed in this thread (and all the confidence I need for follow-up projects).

BTW, Id just love to see some pictures of some pins growing out of the gills of a mushroom

In the case of Pleurotus, a beautiful picture is at page 439 of the 3rd edition of GROWING GOURMET AND MEDICINAL MUSHROOMS of Paul Stamets. But I do not see a real application of growing pins on gills. What I promoted was spore germination on gills, to obtain peroxide resistent mycelium for further transfers. And I also advocate the use of young mushrooms as spawn for substrates outdoors.

Bujinkan: halfpint jars with only whole grains such as birdseed (mostly millet) can not be tyndallized in the way I described. That is because grains have a too high insulation capacity. But a more airy mixture of sawdust or small woodchips and whole grains does work.

Try to obtain lab equipment in a place as Kakamega and you will discover why the nonlab techniques are desirable.

Yachaj  

bibliopharmacophile

Yachaj

  • Guest
Lockit
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2002, 05:08:00 AM »
GOD: If you do not believe me one thing you can do is  contact the author of the peroxide manuals, ask if he knows Yachaj and if the statements of Yachaj in this thread are true.

thread locked?

Yachaj

bibliopharmacophile

GOD

  • Guest
The methods as I have described do work.
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2002, 09:16:00 AM »
The methods as I have described do work. Between 2000 and 2001 several thousend of kg's of Pleurotus ostreatus were grown this way in Shinyalu (near Kakamega Rainforest, West Kenya). Which was the complete oyster mushroom production of Kenya that year. It was this project which gave me all the confidence I have showed in this thread (and all the confidence I need for follow-up projects).

Exactly, a WOODLOVING species.  The theoretical technique you have been wasting our time with (because you refuse to listen) is growing a GRAIN lover with said technique. :-[ .  How many times does it need to bee spelled out for you before it sinks in?

But I do not see a real application of growing pins on gills. What I promoted was spore germination on gills, to obtain peroxide resistent mycelium for further transfers. And I also advocate the use of young mushrooms as spawn for substrates outdoors.

Yes, I know- jumping around when you get cornered.  Why all the extraneous information to confuse/cloud the issue?  I thought the whole purpose of your banter was to promote indoor cultivation of pc's indoors without the use of sterile technique?

Oh yeah, I might go through all of that trouble to contact that guy, and he just MIGHT come over to this forum to settle some petty dispute.  And he just might know who you are, and the name you post under.  -PLEASE!  Give it a rest will you?

Very transparent and juvenile way to structure your arguments.  How old are you? (rehtorical)
Dont get me wrong, I think its great that you have done all of this research and are willing to contribute here.  The problem I have is all of the waste you produce by refusing to accept critisim and lying in order to back your claims.  Turning this into personal insults/attacks when you get cornered as well.  Maybee I shouldnt have allowed myself to get drawn into that.  Either way, despite the irritation you have caused, I hope you continue to research etc.  PLEASE, just make sure when you propose theoretical techniques, indicate that thats whats beeing done, and allow yourself to bee open to constructive critisism.  This way, everybody stands to benefit here.   

"All that we are is the result of all that we have thought."
-Buddha