Author Topic: Psilocybine crystallization for beginners  (Read 19533 times)

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urushibara

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okay... physprops of psilocin - it is very...
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2003, 09:09:00 PM »
okay... physprops of psilocin - it is very unstable, oxidises very easily.. hence if extracting it is too much effort (as shulgin certifies that it is - it can take three days) why bother.

regarding the extraction temperature, if we are dealing with absolute ethanol (ie ~96% ethanol, the rest water) what about doing the extraction at -18 to -20°C? aka the temperature of a freezer?

okay, re baeocystin and unwanted side effects... maybe indeed it is not baeyocystin that causes the problem effects I mentioned. But I base my assertion on the experience of 4-20 medium sized mushrooms... generally the effects I mentioned occured at around 5g of dried cubensis mushrooms (from qld australia). I have never heard of anyone talking about such effects from psilocybin, hence I suspect baeocystin.

okay

I was comparing ethanol solubility to water solubility. I can't quote figures, but ethanol is *way* less able to dissolve psilocybin than H2O. I was basing this information on what I read at 'ask dr shulgin' regarding methods discovered by czech chemists.

oh, and fyi on dried shrooms, I don't know what kind of psilocybin mushrooms you are referring to saying 10mg/g dry, afaik, dry cubensis (afaik amazonian strain) only contain about 5mg/g.

In my early days of psilo consumption, my guide used to rate 1.5g of dried cubensis as a baseline dose, 3g as a full dose and 5g as a guaranteed psychedelic dose. In line with mckenna's figures.

the figures I have heard quoted for mg doses of psilocybin are between 12 and 15mg for a full psychedelic dose.

I would like to see a 2g dried cubensis blow someone's mind. I dare you.


Yachaj

  • Guest
RFT=even more important than UTFSE
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2003, 10:10:00 PM »
MENH2, I mentioned the A/B of PSOH in this thread already! Read before you post!

 See

http://www.tacethno.com/info/psilocybe/casale_1985_jfs_30_247.pdf



As you can see, this method uses a lot more solvents than the PSOP crystallization method by M/P (mixed phase) extraction which I am proposing in this thread.


Yachaj

  • Guest
Cubensis of 1 percent plus exists
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2003, 10:36:00 PM »
Urushibara wrote:

>I don't know what kind of psilocybin mushrooms you are >referring to saying 10mg/g dry, afaik, dry cubensis (afaik >amazonian strain) only contain about 5mg/g

That is the potency on bulk substrates. But see this:

Cubensis on rye:

http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/JBScientific/VariationOfPsi/pages/Variation3.htm



Similar results have been reached on a brown rice medium. Two grams of dried young cubensis will most certainly knock many people out of their socks.

> if we are dealing with absolute ethanol (ie ~96% ethanol, > the rest water)

I think 140 proof (70 percent) extracts the PSOP faster

> what about doing the extraction at -18 to -20°C?

No idea. But I don't see a concrete problem which is solved by doing so. I think it is more useful to compare results of the extraction at 4 centigrade to an extraction at roomtemperature. If the latter leads to the same results faster I think I prefer a rt extraction above one which needs to be done in a freezer.

The less equipment you need the better!


chem_123

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After a long time lost, a bird flies up ...
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2003, 02:38:00 AM »
After a long time lost, a bird flies up through the long awaited crowd of onlookers...
A document was read by this chemist who went to school for a long time that SWIM ran into. 




Psilocybin:
Crystals from Boiling water, mp 220-228°; from boiling methanol, mp 185-195°. uv max (methanol): 220, 267, 290 nm (log E 4.6, 3.8, 3.6). pH 5.2 in 50% aq ethanol. Sol in 20 parts boiling water, 120 parts boiling methanol; difficultly sol. in ethanol. Practically insol in chloroform, benzene. LD50 in mice, rats, rabbits (mg/kg): 285, 280, 12.5 i.v. (Usdin, Efron).




Would that not suggest that a bee would merely use a distillation apparatus with vacuum with some methanol (after separating the retail grade methanol from all the water that's added)?  What's the trouble with that? Whay all the hubub over A/B's and ethanol? According to the notes above, use water...and if a bee is afraid of damaging the active ingredient because of heat, use a vacuum. 


Psilocin:
Plates from methanol, mp 173-176°. Amphoteric substance. Unstable in soln, esp. akaline soln. Very slightly sol in water. uv max: 222, 260, 267, 283, 293nm (log E 4.6, 3.7, 3.8, 3.7, 3.6).




According to the document read, and some of the above information posted by several bees, it seems that this active ingredient isn't worth fighting for. 

However, there is concern to SWIM that Baeocystin and Norbaeocystin may be concentrated just like the desired ingredient...is this a factor?  SWIM doesn't really want to die right now.

SWIMs' not too sure about chromatography (in red above), does that have to do with all the hubub? If a bee doesn't have a chromatography column?

Please correct SWIM if there's a problem with the above logic.




ClearLight

  • Guest
Not chromo...
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2003, 10:33:00 AM »
Those items in red have nothing to do with chromatography but are the ultraviolet transmission/absorbtion peaks for the compound at specific wavelengths. This will help you to identify the compound.   The device is a uv spectrophotometer, which used ones can be had for $100-200 on auction sites.


Lilienthal

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They are talking about recrystallization of...
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2003, 10:42:00 AM »
They are talking about recrystallization of already crystalline material and the spectroscopical data of the pure compound - not about chromatographical separation. The quotes have nothing at all to do with purification from plant material.

Baeocystin, norbaeocystin, and psilocin usually are only trace alkaloids. They can be isolated using sophisticated methods, but the yield is extremely low compared to psilocybin. There is not the slightest hint that those trace alkaloids could be more toxic than psilocybin itself, don't worry about your life  :) .

chem_123

  • Guest
MnkyBoy78
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2003, 04:34:00 AM »
Looks like this

Maybe sugars, but SWIM tried a very simular process (unresearched, just giving it a try).  The residu after a MeOH pull was very sticky and gooie apon evaping the MeOH.  A few ml of Vodka were added to the goo along with a drop of HCl.  A Acetone flash was then done 2x followed by the addition of a few more ml of MeOH.  Neadle like crystals formed after the MeOH evaped off the pie pan.  A tine sample (when scraped with a razor blade, 1/3 the lenth of the blade was used as the sample) was bio-assayed.  A very nice experance was noted for a slightly longer time frame compared to injestion of just caps/stems.

If there is no h2o pressent in any of the solvents during the extraction, then there should be no sugars present in the final product as MeOH and sugars dont like each other.


seems to have solved the sugar and urea problem as urea is soluble in water (big time...Solubility in Water: 1,193 g/L at 250C), and it's toxic to the gonads...yea yea cool...are you thretening me? I am cornholio!

Is that right?


ClearLight

  • Guest
In the freezer
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2003, 06:45:00 AM »
I have about 400mls of etoh and Saturated salt water.. nothing is falling out.. so I'm guessing I should toss it back on the vacuum evaporator and take 50% or so of the solvents off...  maybe the psilocybin will drop then.. I know it's good, as the tlc plate shows the goodies... just can't get it to crystalize yet...


chem_123

  • Guest
Mnkyboy78
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2003, 02:49:00 PM »
If one ounce of mushrooms were processed, would it bee worth crystallizing and purifying a batch of that size?

Lilienthal

  • Guest
:-S You are (probably) not able to crystallize
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2003, 04:31:00 PM »
::)  You are (probably) not able to crystallize psilocybin. At least no without sophisticated methods like chromatography.

Yachaj

  • Guest
And now the standardized extract for dummies!
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2003, 07:55:00 PM »
Liliental wrote:
"You are (probably) not able to crystallize psilocybin. At least no without sophisticated methods like chromatography."

Fortunately there are less sophisticated methods which work.
One example is this one:

"SWIM tried a very simular process (unresearched, just giving it a try).  The residu after a MeOH pull was very sticky and gooie apon evaping the MeOH.  A few ml of Vodka were added to the goo along with a drop of HCl."

Further simplification:

1) instead of MeOH take 140 proof EtOH (70 percent EtOH, 30 percent water). The advantage of this liquid is that it extracts both PSOH and PSOP at low temperatures, in 12hrs time, but it is not as toxic as MeOH and more commonly available.

2a) evaporate it down until everything is just liquid. Add plenty of 190+ proof EtOH and a few drops of HCl. PSOP precipitates out!

2b) you can also evaporate all the 140 proof. The end result is a piece of brown gunk. This piece can be placed in 190+ proof EtOH (+ a drop of HCl). Don't touch it, just watch. In a few days to a week, lots of white dust separates from the brown gunk and collects on the bottom of the container.

Correct me if I am wrong but my explanation of the phenomenon is as follows. Compare it to a bottle of NaCl saturated water, which is visible because of the thin layer of table salt on the bottom. It looks as if the salt doesn't dissolve because the water has dissolved all the NaCl it can hold. But in reality the salt is constantly dissolving and precipitating at the same speed. So the layer stays the same.

Now compare this to a brown gunk of urea/psop with impurities in a bottle of 190+ proof EtOH with HCl.

Slowly the brown gunk dissolves, releasing both urea and PSOP. Urea stays in solution but the solvent is saturated with PSOP HCl in no time. It precipitates out!

But nevertheless, more PSOP HCl is dissolving from the brown gunk. And precipitates out. The chance for an individual PSOP HCl particle to precipitate back into the brown gunk is much smaller compared to the chance of precipitating on the bottom of the container.

Even more funny: the solvent is saturated with PSOP HCl. That means that, if you know the quantity of PSOP HCl which is dissolved in this solvent, at this pH and temperature, (in mg/ml), then you know exactly how many ml are needed for a dose. And this is totally independent from the potency of the mushrooms. Just prepare the PSOP in EtOH&HCl mixture and you know how many ml are needed.

No chromatography. No scales (except for the 1st time to determine the solubility data). No weird solvents, no rocket science - just vodka (separated into its constituents, EtOH and dihydrogen monoxide). Fat chance that the HCl isn't even needed.

jahcaY


Lilienthal

  • Guest
Oh, no doubt that SWIU got a precipitate.
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2003, 08:18:00 PM »
Oh, no doubt that SWIU got a precipitate. But I strongly doubt that it is crystallized psilocybin. Psilocybin might co-precipitate with that amorphous mixture of polar stuff, but believe me: it is not that easy. See it as a concentration step, but please don't talk about crystallization in that context (unless you provide strong evidence).

BTW I would not add HCl to, it just makes no sense (psilocybin is already charged because it is zwitterionic) and such strong acidic condition will probably lead to some degradation.

[This is really not meant to discourage you from experimenting and posting here  :)  :)  :) ]

Yachaj

  • Guest
but believe me: it is not that easy.
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2003, 11:43:00 AM »
but believe me: it is not that easy. See it as a concentration step, but please don't talk about crystallization in that context (unless you provide strong evidence)

If it are not crystals, but it is white, reacts as PSOP with the Marquis test and a bioassay, matches the solibility behavior of PSOP (good in water, not in alcohol/acetone/pet ether), begins to desintegrate (becomes brownish) when it is exposed to 50+ centigrade and when it is exposed to air for a few days (just like as is described for PSOP HCl), and it is the main component which remains when the urea is crystallized out then what else than crystalline PSOP can it be?

Of course you have a point if you state that even if it is 99.99999 percent pure it is still not 100, so still not crystalline.

This is really not meant to discourage you from playing with complicated time consuming yield wasting methods, but I see no point in going further. Extraction&purification is needed to prepare a standardized product, so the strain or species or potency of the starting material is no longer a concern.

I think a separation of the PSOH from the PSOP (and the (nor)baeocystin etc.) indeed requires chromatography. But that is not needed for a reliable endproduct of constant quality.

What you want is absolute 100 percent crystallization, with not a single contaminant molecule in a chunk of PSOP. Right? For that I don't think that even chromatography will satisfy your needs.

Yachaj


Lilienthal

  • Guest
My point is: your product is probably a ...
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2003, 01:16:00 PM »
My point is: your product is a mixture of everything soluble in aqueeous MeOH / EtOH and unsoluble in ethanol. That simply means: Polar compounds, e.g. amino acids, peptides, sugars, nucleotides, or urea, just to name a few. It's probably a mixture of several hundred to thousand compounds, it it most probably NOT pure (= crystallized) psilocybin. It might be one of the main compounds in there, but without checking against pure psilocybin we even don't know that.

The term "crystallization" means "pure preparation consisting of the compound in a defined crystal structure", it doesn't mean "amorphous powder containing a bit (or a bit more) compound"  :P .

It sounds like a great way for concentration, but might not a good procedure for standardization.
:)

urushibara

  • Guest
recrystallise it then?
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2003, 11:34:00 AM »
would it clean it up if it was recrystallised?


Lilienthal

  • Guest
If it is not crystallized in the beginning you
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2003, 12:08:00 PM »
If it is not crystallized in the beginning you can't re-crystallize. It would be a fractionated precipitation, but I doubt you could purify it much that way.

urushibara

  • Guest
recrystallise and wash?
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2003, 07:43:00 PM »
Maybe some of those things could be washed off?

Of course the only way to get it fully separate is with a liquid chromatograph.

still, considering that even if it's only 10% that means you only need 100-150mg of material, and it isn't likely to vary that much from one patch to the next. easy to cap, quite reliable for dosing (who can measure 10mg anyway?)


Yachaj

  • Guest
Lilienthal wrote: "your product is a...
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2003, 03:32:00 PM »
Lilienthal wrote:
"your product is a mixture of everything soluble in aqueous MeOH / EtOH and unsoluble in ethanol"

True. But the undesired components do not interfere enough with the solubility of the major psychoactive component (PSOP) to make the standardized extract unreliable.

But hey - look at this. It is about the use of 4-DMCA instead of 4-DMBA as main ingredient in Ehrlich's reagent. 4-DMCA is OTC and most likely useful as indicator when a simple piece of typing paper is used as TLC surface.

From the paper then all different components can be separately recognized, -extracted and purified with only alcohol as solvent.

Of course the results will probably be better (less losses)with more difficult to obtain solvents and real TLC paper, but given the fact that the desired alkaloids can readily be biosynthesized from brown rice or malt agar, a crude typing paper TLC with 4-DMCA as OTC color indicator can be the finishing touch.

(newbees who have no idea about TLC and mushrooms may also read the text

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_article2.shtml

)


from:
Occurence of 5-hydroxylated indole derivatives in Paneolina foenescii (Fries) Kuehner from various origin. T. Stijve, C. Hischenhuber, D. Ashley. Z. Mycol. 50: 361 (1984)

Ehrlich's reagent (Révélateurs pour la chromatographie en couches minces et sur papier, E. Merck, Darmstadt 1975, no 91, p. 32) was initially used because it yielded brightly coloured spots with most of the compounds of interest. However, detection of psilocybin required a few minutes heating at 100 deg. C and under these circumstances co-extracted urea yielded a brightly yellow zone which interfered with the evaluation of serotonin, a major constituent. In addition, sensitivity for tryptophan was poor.

Better results were obtaines using 4-dimethylamino cinnamaldehyde (DMCA) (Fluka no 39421) which was used as a solution of 0,5 g in 10 ml fuming concentrated hydrochloric acid, mixed with 50 ml methanol. This reagent was more sensitive than its benzaldehyde analogue and did not need heating to react with the various indoles. In addition, it produced a different shade of colour with each compound. For example, psilocin turned greenish gray, psilocybin reddish, bufotenin violet, 5-hydroxyindole acetic acid green, serotonin and 5-hydroxytryptophan bright blue, tryptophan purple and tryptamine purple red.

It should be pointed out that these colours may vary with the chemical nature of the TLC adsorbent. For example, psilocybin spots are reddish on Si02 and on SilCel layers, but violet on cellulose.

The reagent proved tobe remarkably sensitive: the detection limitfor serotonin and 5-hydroxytryptophan was 10 ng and for psilocybin and tryptophan 25 ng. At room temperature psiocybin was the last of the indolic ompounds to become visible. Usually, optimal visibility was obtained after 10-15 mm. The reaction could be accelerated by slightly heating with a stream of warm air from a hair-dryer.

Interestingly, the DMCA reagent reacted only very slowly with urea, which yielded a reddish spot only after a few hours, and thus did not interfere with the determination of serotonin.


Lilienthal

  • Guest
Typing paper for TLC makes NO sense!
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2003, 08:55:00 PM »
Typing paper for TLC makes NO sense! Use silica gel sheets on polyamide with fluorescence indicator instead. Or if you really have to: filter paper. But separation on paper needs other solvent mixtures, takes longer, and gives a way lower resolution. If you don't have problems to buy detection reagents you can also buy TLC sheets. The para-dimethylamino-cinnamic aldehde is more sensitive than the para-dimethylamino-benzaldehyde, but usually you don't need that extra sensitivity and take the cheaper pDMABA.

ClearLight

  • Guest
read the Van Urk Salkowski paper
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2003, 08:04:00 AM »
I posted and is on rhodium's site.. that has excellent sensistivity and very discriminating color changes.. the place to start w/ tryptamines...