ammonium persulfate to ammonium chloride

[hoffman]

Hello all,

is it possible to turn Ammonium persulfate, into ammonium chloride, as the former is readily available, and the latter not,.


would it be as simple as basing, then re-acidifying with hcl??



hoffman,

[Rhodium]

Buy household ammonia and neutralize with HCl instead to get an aqueous solution of ammonium chloride. Ammonium persulfate is an oxidizer and may cause undesired problems.

[methymouse]

You can also get ammonium carbonate (aka baker's ammonia) from baking supply companies if you don't want to boil off all that water.

[stratosphere]

by ammonium persulfate did you maybe mean ammonia bisulfate(HH4 S04H)? as i would imagine ammonia persulphate would decompose into hydrazine.

if you did mean ammonia bisulfate, id say the only good way to ammonium chloride would be to drop concentrated NaOH(aq) onto and pass the gaseous ammonia into some ice cold concentrated HCl, the ammonia chloride should crash out.

[stratosphere]

Buy household ammonia and neutralize with HCl instead to get an aqueous solution of ammonium chloride. Ammonium persulfate is an oxidizer and may cause undesired problems.


i think he probly meant ammonia bisulphate, as he seemed to indicate it was more available the NH4Cl, which i doubt is the case for ammonia persulfate.
and would ammonia persulfate even be stable? i thought strong peroxo compounds reacted with  ammonia to give hydrazine?

but lets say for some reason he has aquired a large amount of ammonium persulphate and is stuck with it, he could reduce it with an aqueous iron(II) salt, giving a ammonium/iron(III) sulphate salt.

[Vitus_Verdegast]

My local electronics hobby store has ammonium persulfate available on the shelf. I don't remember exactly what it is used for, but I think it has something to do with circuit-board etching (it sits next to the FeCl₃.6H₂O).

[hellman]

Yes,
i mean persulfate, the stuff on the shelves at electronics stores'.


hhmmm...

[stratosphere]

oh, just react it in water with an Fe(II) salt, then youll get a mix of (NH4)SO4 and Fe2(SO4)3

[Nicodem]

Oh yes, amonium persulphate is used as an etching solution for copper on circuit boards!
Vitus, thanks for that info. That persulphate is quite useful.
(BTW, why would anybee want to waste such a precious material as a source of amonia?)

[methymouse]

After reacting with an Fe (II) salt (or probably aluminum foil), you can then add calcium chloride, and calcium sulphate will precipitate, leaving NH4Cl.  Though this is both expensive and pointless.

[silenziox]

Why not just buy a bottle of ammonium and bottle of x% HCl from pharmacy and set up 2 gassers with CaCl₂ and lead the pipes to single chamber? Voila: Anhydrous Salmiak. ...

I always eat my products :0)

[hoffman]

Thankyou,

I have seen 500g tubs for $5.00 (persulfate)
Cacl2 is dirt cheap,
So this is an excellent way for the production of nhcl2, which is great for making menh2,


If any bee has any time, I sure would apreciate the ratios for this reaction,
If successfull, this should beee great.




hof

[methymouse]

NHCl2 (dichloramine) is not used for making MeNH2 (methyamine).  I assume you meant ammonium chloride, which is NH4Cl.  Remember that you need formaldehyde as well, and that's not particularly easy to come by.  ScienceMaddness.org has a document on it in their library, though I don't know whether the method works or not.  In SWIM's experience, the hexamine method detailed on Rhodium's page works very well with hexamine camp fuel tablets.  Note that 500g might not be all that much.  Ammonium persulfate has a formula of (NH4)2SO6, so that's only ~22% NH4 ions / weight.  Less if the substance is sold as a hydrate (likely).  Seriously, 5lb (NH4)2CO3 (37% NH4 ions) is only about $35 if you search a bit, and can be used directly with muriatic acid, without mucking around with reducing the peroxysulphuric ions, then precipitating, etc.

[karl]

Wouldn't the CaCl2 complex with the NH3 - better to use another drying agent.

[silenziox]

Remember that you need formaldehyde as well, and that's not particularly easy to come by.

You won't need formaldehyde for salmiak. You need formaldehyde to produce methylamine with salmiak.

Methylamine from Ammonium Chloride and Formaldehyde

(https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/clandestine/methylamine/)

[gsus]

it is very cool that you can purchase persulfate because you need an electro setup to make them yourself. what for? how about using a type of Elbs reaction? not just limited to p-OH'ing phenol, this will turn salicylaldehyde into gentisaldehyde(mp99C) in 50% yield. so? the dimethyl ether of gentisaldehyde is 2,5-dimethoxybenzaldehyde, which is a molecule of hi-test karma. of course you'll need to change the ammonium into the potassium salt but given the low solubility of the K(1.77g/100gH2O) a simple exchange w/KCl is worth a try. especially since this is the best way to make 2,5 dihydroxy cpds even with the low yields. just reflux w/alkali and K persulfate and clean up as usual. unreacted salicylaldehyde is easily separated as it is the only liquid-at-RT OH aldehyde. also the more OH's on a molecule-the more sol. in polar solvs/fewer OH's more sol in nonpolar solvs.
persulfate ion will also turn Cr+3 to +6(in alkali soln), Mn+2 to MnO2, K ferro- and ferricyanides to HCN(in mineral acids), and X- to X2(some iodate if conditions harsh)--Fe+2, Cu+2, and especially both in combo are catalysts for free halide production. it will also turn salicylic acid to gentisic acid. given the fact that salicylaldehyde is so easily made from phenol/NaOH/chloroform(albeit lo yield), you'd think someone would bee looking for a lot of Br2, methyl sulfate, and nitromethane. just a fyi for those who dont UTFSE, or were doing bong hits while reading their textbooks. of course i dont condone use of these precursors to make anything until the apocalypse and second coming, in which case it would b cool to drop some nexus.

bongmaster messiah is coming-prepare