The Vespiary

The Hive => Methods Discourse => Topic started by: dennispeck on August 13, 2003, 10:59:00 AM

Title: Replacing monomethylamine for trimethylamine
Post by: dennispeck on August 13, 2003, 10:59:00 AM

Swim was wondering when in the process of making MDMA using MDP2P,monomethylamine,platinum oxide and hydrogen in methanol if it is possible to replace the monomethylamine,hcl for trimethylamine,hcl??

Title: Well, you won't get any MDMA for sure.
Post by: Bandil on August 13, 2003, 11:12:00 AM

Well, you won't get any MDMA for sure. If you where planning on making MDdiMA, that wont work either as trimethylamine is fully substituted and won't react with ketones in the usual manner(or any manner AFAIK)...

Title: replacing monomethylamine for triethylamine HCL
Post by: dennispeck on August 13, 2003, 01:25:00 PM

EXCUSE ME! What i ment was replacing methylamine for triethylamine HCL! :-[

Title: Same principle for triethylamine...
Post by: Bandil on August 13, 2003, 01:36:00 PM

Same principle for triethylamine... Won't work either!

You need either methylamine og nitromethane to make MDMA from MDP2P... Nothing(probably) else will work(for the direct route that is).

The tertiary amines are never used for substitution reactions like that, because the simply don't react that way. All of their available electron sites are taken by the alkyl chain. The only thing left are the lone pair, which you wont get to react :) The tertiary amines are often used as a pseudo-inert base, as they wont react with stuff like methyliodide and the like, but still can scavange for some H+ and make a quatinary salt.

Regards
bandil

Title: You have a curious explanation
Post by: OcoteaCymbarum on August 14, 2003, 01:06:00 AM

for tertiary amines to not form imines easily.
What are electron sites? How does monomethylamine have more electron site then triethylamine? Imine formation doesnt involve any electrons from the alkyl groups!

The reason that wont happen is more likely to be because of steric hindrance, which makes the imine formation so slow and hard that it's negligible.

Title: Imine formation
Post by: acid_egg on August 14, 2003, 02:19:00 AM

You have a curious explanation for tertiary amines to not form imines easily.

Isn't it just that the tertiary amine has no protons to transfer/donate (whether it's trimethylamine OR triethylamine HCl), necessary for the imine formation, rather than steric hindrance?

Title: correct
Post by: Rhodium on August 14, 2003, 02:45:00 AM

Acid_egg has the correct explanation. Even secondary amines doesn't form proper imines with ketones, they rather tend to form enamines...

Title: Totally
Post by: OcoteaCymbarum on August 14, 2003, 05:30:00 AM

I was stone a little earlier and it shows.

I hadn't even though about the proton!
Thanks for correcting me.
I smoke too much weed I guess

Title: Sometimes I wonder what the utility of ...
Post by: slappy on August 14, 2003, 07:38:00 PM

Sometimes I wonder what the utility of responding to posts like this one is. I'm not sure that I want to encourage someone like this. I think that some basic understanding of what you are doing is necissary to deliver a safe product to consumers.