The Hive > Stimulants

"True Blue" NH3/Li reduction ie birch

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jammin:
I dont know what lingo you're after, but it does sometimes stand for "Thanks In Advance".

Thats what I use it for anyway.

There might be som chemical abrivation Im not aware of, though...

bigblue:
Jammin is correct on my usage of T.I.A.  Thanks in advance!  Swim is with the OG on the Birch "Like."  Mr.Clean's write up conviced swim of that.  Much shorter reduction.  You can control the smelly.  The li is easily obtainable.  You can make your own juice.  No heat, till gas, then only a small amount.  Dry Ice can control the reduction.   Plus the best part, NH3 and Li don't care  much about binders, gakks, etc..

bigdumbnut:
Thanks for the informative process. Being a big dummy I can't fully appreciate something until I understand all the details so I ask the following hopefully without offending
1. Since you use the fb and not in an OH, where does the H come from after cleaving the OH? Not being a chemist I may be confused here but I thought the H from the cleaved OH couldn't be used and that the NP needed to stay intact for extraction
2.How did you determine a purity of 95%?
3. Did I understand correctly that you obtained a yield of 78% final MA HCl from possible E in pills?
4.You mentioned obtaining MA crystals when you gassed. I have only recent gassing experience but I've never obtained crystals. Any suggestions?
5.You mentioned making your E anhydrous by reducing the quantity of NP it was suspended in. What do you use for NP?

Not a question but I beleive the name for this reaction is a "Benkser Reduction" or a "MAS (Metal Ammonia Solution) Reduction"
TIA

ordinaryguy:
Thank you for expressing an interest in my original post as well as forwarding the information on the formal names of the rxn. I have yet to research what documentation is available on the "Benkser" or "Mas" but definately appreciate your input!

1. Since you use the fb and not in an OH, where does the H come from after cleaving the OH? Not being a chemist I may be confused here but I thought the H from the cleaved OH couldn't be used and that the NP needed to stay intact for extraction

Having dropped out of high school in the 11th grade(regretably so) and being only recently introduced to "The Hive" as a primary resouce on the subject of chemistry, I believe quite honestly(and humbly) that this question is beyond my current capacity to answer accurately. It's my feeling that your reference to OH would equate Hydroxide.?(OH-) Iv'e personally, nor has swim, ever seen the scientific formulas nor molecular structures modeled for ephedrine or methamphetamine freebase or crystalline forms. Nor do I have a complete understanding of how exactly the molecular changes take place.(although I are facinated by what I have leared so far)I believe there to be a OH branch(is this the correct term) on an ephedrine molecule that gets diminished during the reduction rxn. Also if memory strikes accurate an additional brach is necessary to form a methamphetamine molecule. It appears that your use of the word cleaving is as a transitive verb meaning "the seperation of a structure into distinct groups having divergent views." To me it means put the O's with the O's and the H's with the H's ! The H's I believe become H+ or otherwise known as protons. I believe an H+ is necessary on the additional branch previously mentioned to attain methamphetamine. Sorry if this is long winded but I'm kinda going with myself here. I don't really have any other resource than "The Hive" and I'm obviously tied up in a response message, unable to do research enabling me to answer with conviction. My deepest apologies if this is way off of the facts. I would not deliberately mislead anybody in such a manner. It wouldn't prevent me from doing so with out my knowledge however. So in your question you mentioned being under the impression that the H by-product generated by the cleaving of the OH could not be utilized in the formation of this additional brach. I believe you to be correct.(by memory again) I am unsure of the explaination for why this becomes unusable though. So this would leave the whole equation short a H necessary to complete the structure in forming methamphetamine? If memory again serves, I recall an ephedrine molecule as having a branch of NH2 that gets modified into NH during the reduction rxn. Is it possible that this is where the missing H is generated to complete the branch necessary for the methamphetamine molecule? I bet those wizards at Rhodium would know! We could sure use their expertise and clarity.

The second part of this question was in reference to the NP involved.

At this point in the process, the NP is being utilized as a vehicle to convey the freebase molecules from one container to another. The reduction under low heat should not affect it's properties in a way that would prevent this from occurring successfully. It may, however, change the chemical percentages available within the NP via evaporating some ingredients more than others. In swim's experience, characteristic changes here were unnoticable having no detectable change on the conveyance of the freebase molecules. The addition of NP post rxn was mentioned as a vehicle to facilitate extraction of the freebase methamphetamine molecules.

2.How did you determine a purity of 95%?

The 95% purity figure was determined on two contributing factors. The roughly 47 gram yield was divided into two lots. The extracted NP was roughly split in half.(no formal measurement however the solution was agitated to facilitate equal distribution of the freebase molecules within the solution) One lot was titriated for preferred honey bee's and the balance gassed. The titriated lot yielded 28.33 grams. The gassing yielded 20.02 grams. The total was 48.35 grams. The titriated lot was then recrystallized via natural evaporation.(which takes way too long by the way) The post evaporation crystals were then seperated from a suspect material that was present.(there were distinct color and texture differences) The suspect material was weighed and discarded after a small sample was tested via vaporization. It's weight was 1.35 grams which when discarded brought the yield down to 47 grams. This equated to 5% of the total 28.33 grams. A little hind-site on the 5% assumed to be remaining in the gassed product would bring it's yield down to 19.02 grams for a total yield of 46.002 grams.(assuming the suspect material was equally distributed within the NP solution) We stand corrected. Thank you for identifying this. Also the titriated crystals where the suspect material was not present were vaporized in a very small quantity. It appeared as if only slight oxidation occurred within the glass utencil. So we figured on 5%.

3. Did I understand correctly that you obtained a yield of 78% final MA HCl from possible E in pills?

Yes, you understood correctly however our figures were slightly off due to the above miscalculation. Including the actual figures mentioned above, the actual yield was 76.66% of a return on the invested 60 grams of ephedrine available within the pills utilized. I believe the maximum yield under perfect conditions to be somewhere in the area of 82% due to reduction. It should be noted though that for certain some E was lost in the extraction but that amount remained uncertain. Midway through the E extraction process there was a total of 63 grams available which obviously equated to unclean E. The remaining 50% of the extraction was carried out in solutions. This made it unfeasible to get an accurate figure on what was readily available post cleaning and reduction.

4.You mentioned obtaining MA crystals when you gassed. I have only recent gassing experience but I've never obtained crystals. Any suggestions?

I stand corrected 50% on this issue. Gassed freebase turns into HCL or crystalline. Although it is minute when compared to the titriated/recrystallized product, it is still crystal formations. The only other option would be freebase which is oil. These tiny fluffy crystals form a sort of spun glass looking structure on the filtering medium prior to handling. Under careful observation one will notice needle like characteristics. The comment within the original post was more so referenced to the titriated lot which did fail to get mentioned. I was unaware of the time perameters governing editing of a post.
If in fact you have any experience with gassing, then you have in fact obtained crystals in doing so. They were just tiny.

5.You mentioned making your E anhydrous by reducing the quantity of NP it was suspended in. What do you use for NP?

Swims personal choice for NP is toulene for various reasons. It is substanially less expensive than other solvents, has less impurities, has good evaporation characteristics, is less volitile than some others, is more common as a everyday garage type product, and has such a sweet smell. Also other NP's such as the common camping fuel so many use causes a cotton candy effect rather than crystallization when gassing and is less than desireable.

Thanks again B.D.N for your interest and your questions. I hope I was able to clarify somewhat. I'm not too sure about that first question though. Obviously having these inquiries come from someone as intelligent and polite as yourself eliminated any chance of offense. Please let me know how you do. Many are unaware that titriation is an option to gassing and that they can obtain what many refer to as glass or shards which is a preferred product for marketing. Maybe if they knew they had a choice they would reconsider this process.

P.s-Do yourself a favor and where the proper eye and respratory protection just in case. It may just save your life.

A few notes in closing...

There was a total of 62 grams available in the pills due to the 2 mg per antihistimine.

The extraction process took a full two days and all filtering mediums were flushed with clean solutions to assure maximum product retention.
 
All seperation of fluids were done in lab-grade seperatory funnels and the solutions were allowed to seperate completely prior to dispensing.

All solutions in the process were double checked for missed product.

The amount of Li used in the rxn was tailored specifically for the 2 gram antihistimine addition. The actual quantity required for the reduction of 60 grams is slightly less than that utilized. Any overage of Li would result in over-reducing the product and a decrease in yield and quality.

A glass mesh was positioned above the NP during the low heat reduction to catch any freebase oil that may evaporate(nothing notable collected-it seemed to only slow the already slow evaporation process)

The reduction of NP solvent to 25% of the original quantity would not be necessary if enough NH3 was utilized to displace what was used. This would not slow the rxn significantly as the NH3 evaporates so rapidly. Successive DH2O washes will speed this process.

Iv'e seen this done with relatively similar results approximately eight times. Very impressive.

Iv'e heard of people chucking raw pills into the reaction but am unsure as to how one would accurately equate the required Li to compensate for the non-active ingredients. Not to mention what kind of carcenegenics they may be creating within the product they will be utilizing.

Scottydog:
Thanks ordinary for an awesome post! Swim feels this is within his capacity to learn but the problem is with the acquisition of NH3.

He has a friend who got popped stealing NH3 from a huge tank out in the plains. These huge tanks are under surveillance and Swim doesnt believe in stealing.

Swim was checking out posts by Mr Clean and iseebatsdude on the production of NH3 with various ammonia fertilizers that are OTC.

The descriptions although directly spelled out should bee accompanied by pictures.

With Eudragit, the DEA and pharm industry have accomplished the task of limiting the supply of gear on the streets of America.

So don't you bees feel that it is now time to unleash the beast?

The rxn itself is easier then RP, hypo and phosacid.

What we need as a collective is a fully descriptive thread concerning self production of NH3 with PICTURES and captions.

Dwarfer knows the birch and has no shame concerning pics.

Dwarfer?

Aside from Fester's Eudragit cure, NH3 is probably the last straw before settling on racemic product or beeing forced to learn pseudo production via L-PAC?

Someone should unleash the beast and open the flood gates because it is obvious THEY have plans to shut down shop, as we once knew it, regardless.

There is a time and a place for everything, isn't NOW the time?

If not, PM Swim.

Thanks

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