What's the latest on extracting Red Hots?

[fearnoevil]

Well Swif's spent many hours reading info on cleaning Red Hots - some of the info is conflicting/confusing and Swif realizes that things keep changing due to new formulations so some posts are outdated. Bottom line, Swif is about to do an extract on some red hots and would surely appreciate the latest info (or a link thereto) on the best procedure to use.

His come in two brands, one is rounded and glossy, has a #44 on em, exp. dates 10/05 & 01/06, inactives include acacia, black iron oxide, calcium carbonate, carnuba wax, croscarmellose sodium, dicalcium phosphate, red dye #40, yellow dye #6, magnesium stearate, microcrystalling cellulose, pharmaceutical glaze, silicon dioxide, sugar, talc, titanium dioxide (sheesh).

The other not so glossy and embossed with L432, exp. dates 01/06 & 05/06, inactives include carnuba wax, dicalcium phosphate, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose, magnesium stearate, microcrystalline cellulose, polyethylene glycol, polysorbate 80, red 40, silicon dioxide, titanium dioxide.

 Is it ok to mix these two or is one batch preferrable over the other? TIA for any guidance.

Signed: Gakk-shy in Spudland

[jackhole]

First off, the pills with the 2005 expiration date are safe, and there's a good chance that your 2006 exp. date pills are too. Do NOT combine the pills! The expiration date could make all the difference in the world, but a Str8 to E (performed CORRECTLY) will afford a nearly quantitative yield of pseudoephedrine extracted from the 2005 pills.  If the newer pills indeed do have the new gakks (which I doubt, and you'll find out after sampling the produced meth if you fail to determine beforehand), read Uncle Fester's and Geezmeister's posts concerning their removal (UTFSE).

[fearnoevil]

Jack, what about deredding? Swif's read some posts that say some gakks (OII?) are under the dye and that trying to dered them will allow the gakk to bond to the pseudo. But aside from Dwarfers "Best Red Remover" method, Swif hasn't read any other techniques, nor how to avoid getting gakked while deredding.

Can MEK be used in place of acetone to remove the dye, and since pseudo isn't soluable in MEK, and would that help prevent the gakk from bonding to the pseudo? Or is it the H2o that has the tendency to cause this?

Also, are you saying it's more important to separate the batches by exp/date and not the inactives/brands?

This whole gakk thing has made Swif a nervous nelly as he would sorely like to get one extraction right/clean. Thanks for any help!

"Once gakked, twice shy."

[fearnoevil]

Just for shits and grins Swif decided to try a test. Had some MEK laying around so he took a small jar and poured some in and added about a teaspoon of water. First he tossed in a couple of the redhots with L432 on em (non-glossy), one each of exp. dates 01/06 & 05/06.  Shook em up and the red came off fairly quickly leaving only a little, tho did notice some pill degradation. When left to sit for a minute the liquid separated and the water layer was a nice red color.

Then repeated this process with fresh sol and one pill each with the #44 on em, exp. dates 10/05 & 01/06.  Upon shaking it was noticable that there seemed to be an orange layer under the red, took longer to get most of this off, the pills maintained their integrity but upon inspection (scraping) it appeared as if there was still some kinda coating.

A taste test (ie licking) of the two different pill types showed that on the first batch one could detect bitterness (pseudo) but on the second batch there was none, and even had a slight sweet taste meaning they still had some coating.

Swif noticed immediately that the MEK/H2o sol had a definite OILY ORANGE viscous liquid which stuck to the bottom of the jar, unlike the previous red dye/H2o which poured out easily.

Q: Is this orange crap OGII?

Q: If the first batch showed none of this, does it mean there's no OGII or can it be somewhere else in the pills formula?

While certainly not scientific proof, Swif thinks this means DO NOT MIX THESE DIFFERENT BRANDS!!!  Which means Swif will have to go shopping again.....

Any comments appreciated  

[Coitus]

Keep the 44's separate from the L432. Extract them seaparatly.
De-Red via dwarfer, then run the tetra trap. If at all possible, use gas to obtain the HCL salt.

[fearnoevil]

Thanks for that Coitus, but would the L432's be better than the 44's with that orange crap?

Also, is that stuff the infamous OGII, and are there any extra steps needed to get rid of what appeared to be the sugary(?) coating under the orange?

Does gassing help to clean the pseudo or is it just better to use HCL salt in the rxn (or both)?

Yah, Swif asks lots of Q's but he's a curious SOB and really wants to understand the why as well as the how   .  Sure appreciate any help in furthering Swif's education!

[gsus]

kinda funny how the 44's have changed, from the 04's to 05's. they have been degakked, they no longer have povidone.

as for the slimy redness, if not completely deredded, i've heard that the redness will fall out between 95-100°, following "straight to E"-

Post 440177

(VideoEditor: "New Straight to E -- a novel extraction tech.", Stimulants) to the letter. it sticks to the glassware nicely at this point and the solution is poured out fast, into another flask that goes right back on the burner. it is obvious when the gunk has all come out, the solution is colorless. once the solution starts to become cloudy white with pfed, its too late.

right after all the red gunk comes out, the pfed does. so if the flask is not changed and the pfed falls on the gunk, well then you've got gunk in your pfed, and the gunk no longer sticks to the flask, it sticks to the pfed. touchy gunk with no margin for error, but with care, it can be dealt with.

[gluecifer69]

I don't think the red would come across an A/B extraction.

[UncleFester]

for Christ's sake, man, it is simple...extract with alcohol,
add KOH, boil the gak to crap, and away you go. I wish I had all of you in a room all at once.

[gluecifer69]

Hey Fester,If you would have taken the time to read the first post you would note that these pillz have not yet been infected w/ the Euadragit or methacrylates or whatever.(according to the exp. dates from swim's experience)

Swim was simply giving what he thought was the easiest most foolproof method.  Swim see no reason to employ your(fester) cure here as swim thought it was exclusive to the new gakk not the OrangeII gakk.  

Please correct me if I am wrong, will your cure elimate the OrangeII gakk?

[Scottydog]

Thanks Gluey and Coitus. You guys always seem to bee bailing Swim out lately.

Coitus, what kind of yields are you getting using the trap with redhots?

The shit revolves (full circle) history repeats itself, even here at the-hive.

Swim used to employ the waterless A/B with the 44s until it no longer worked effectively. That was before the tetra trap promotion. Then it was onto the easier pills.

The 44's cost more than the 60's and 120's. Considering what is going on lately with the eudragit and various supergakks, as time has gone by, Swim has realized that "cheaper and easier" is now a relative term. In terms of untainted yield, cheaper is not always better? What used to bee easier is now the more difficult pillstock.  

Both pseudo and end product yields have been so terrible that the shit rolls down hill and the consumer ends up paying more in the parking lot, ya know? Swim knows he is not the only one, based upon the consumer's willingness to actually pay more!!  

Swim started with 30's, then 60's, then 120's and now 2 yrs later after the now defunct waterless A/B extraction method, it is time to go back to 30's?

These fuckers sure have us jumping through hoops.

The 60's and 120's are into lot #'s with exp dates of 06 and 07.

Makes me wonder if the industry has a surplus of 30's that wouldn't move during the last yr but I'm sure they will now get their money.

Fester, as soon as the KOH arrives, Swim will try your method with the many 60's he has stockpiled. He refuses to extract these until then. He will post his results in your thread.

Less competition for the 30's anyway...

Swim has stepped into "the aisle" and watched people look for 60's or 120's. If they aren't stocked they will turn and walk. People don't pay the 30's any attention anymore and nor have they for quite sometime.

After the days of the waterless A/B they are most likely just as gun shy.

Using 60's without the KOH and after 4 recrystallizations ended with a 33% yield! It is time for a change...

[fearnoevil]

Swif's read Uncle Festers' method but can't seem to find potassium hydroxide anywhere.

When googled there are any number of posts that seem to glom sodium hydroxide with KOH as if they were interchangeable, but Swif assumes this is not the case here or Uncle Fester would have said "or NaOH".

Swif knows sources are a no-no but any hint as to an OTC product or type of retailer to go to to look for KOH would be much appreciated. TIA!

[foxy2]

KOH is more soluable in alcohol and will work better, but NaOH would probably work also.

[jackhole]

KOH is hella easy to get. Buy it online in 1lb cans from scientific supply shops. It's cheap, WIDELY available, and suspicionless provided it's the only item you order and it isn't sent to an apartment.

[Shane_Warne]

You'll risk looking like a clandestine chemist.

It isn't worth if, if you weigh it up. I'd follow foxy2's advice if you want to attempt Festers trick, which I have no reason to doubt.

Take every clean you ever do very seriously, because it's a serious risk for something that is unlikely to continue to for too much longer.

I suppose if you don't want to de-colour then an A/B is your best option.

Take Geez' advice in the other thread you started aswell, regarding gassing and naptha.

[fearnoevil]

Hmm, well found another post where someone says it's sold in hardware stores as a de-icer sold in 25lb. bags (might be a little late in the year for that, depending on your local).  But if it's caustic, similar to lye, can't see how they'd sell it pure - anyone know if this sounds right?

Also found an online source that sells soapmaking supplies, so that's another option.

[UncleFester]

Those red hots will be much more amenable to extraction when extracted with 91% iso or 95% ethyl alcohol and then boiled with KOH added. The acacia polymer will cleave, the carnuba polymer will cleave, as will the povidone polymer. Orange gak II will also cleave. Then you won't need 5 recrystallizations to get a clean product. If you don't like the cards you are dealt, shuffle and deal again. That's what KOH does, and makes things much simpler.

[fearnoevil]

Thanks much Uncle - Swif's planning on doing just that and is just waiting on getting the KOH.  Someone mentioned that NaOH will work as a substitute but Swif would rather hear it straight from the horses mouth,   .