Author Topic: Push/Pull Meth using Phosphorous acid?  (Read 3427 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

katsogiannos

  • Guest
Push/Pull Meth using Phosphorous acid?
« on: January 09, 2004, 08:05:00 AM »
SWIM is wondering if bees are using the push/pull method with phosphorous acid and/or hypo. It seems that reflux is the preferred method these days. Have any bees attempted a p/p reduction of ephedrine, using hypo or phosphorous acid, and iodine?

spectralshift

  • Guest
In a way..
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2004, 10:29:00 AM »
ScottyDogg knows someone who's done it, but with a long hose.

You can use a balloon if you use a suitably sized test-tube, it doesn't even have a proper hard-on. But have it out of the way of any hotplates or upflow of radiant heat from the bath, by laying the testtube on the rim.


A ghetto condensor and a PP would bee awesome, dont know anyone whos tried it though.

talk to BarkingBurro he might know.

SHORTY

  • Guest
Speaking of ghetto condensers....
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2004, 12:59:00 PM »
I have a real condenser but prefer my ghetto condenser since it requires no water supply.

I just took a 48" flourescent light tube and knocked the ends off and washed with dishsoap and a clothes hanger with a sponge connected to it to remove the white inside.

Put a balloon on one end and wrap teflon tape on the other until it fits snuggly in the flask and your good to go. 

I use the most jagged end for the flask and try to get a clean straight end for the balloon.  The jagged end causes the condensing acid to fall from several points around the circumference of the tube.


spectralshift

  • Guest
Re: Put a balloon on one end and wrap teflon...
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2004, 01:19:00 PM »

Put a balloon on one end and wrap teflon tape on the other until it fits snuggly in the flask and your good to go.




Do you mean without stopper?


Another way if you have to go the non-glass route with the condensor is to use a suitable sized plastic softdrink bottle with suitably sized clear PVC tubing fed thru it.

String it up by the neck to the roof or something else.

You can cut a oval shaped hole in the curved neck to refill with ice and to one of the bottom feet you can use a tap for the outlet of melted ice. swis finds that bit tricky and uses any glues, silicones, he can get his hands on. It's leaked before now in to the oil bath. F--fSSSSSSSS


SHORTY

  • Guest
No stopper
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2004, 01:34:00 PM »
The tube I use is only slightly smaller than the flask opening so a few wraps of the tefflon tape with a several wraps of electrical tape above it to prevent slipping and i get a complete seal.  Thats what i like about the balloon, it lets you know if you got a good seal.


spectralshift

  • Guest
I know
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2004, 01:42:00 PM »
Boy have things changed, I remember having a big argument with you about balloons and safety, I think I won the argument but you were right. so unjust.

That's supreme! I've been looking for a stopperless reaction (reflux) to um think about. So do you use it as an air condensor or do you need to cool it?

Do you wrap foil around your teflon tape and melt it with a lighter so it doesnt char?  :)

love that stuff

Scottydog

  • Guest
H3PO3 with PP
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2004, 02:55:00 PM »
Yeah, Swim has dreamed about cooking gear via H3PO3 with a push-pull unit and ghetto condenser.

There have been some modifications...

To bee honest, after a year of thorough experimentation, phosphorous acid alone just doesn't cut it (using a PP unit) At least in Swim's opinion.

It is like gambling every time he decides to run a batch. He never knows if the pseudo will fully convert.

About 50% of the time it will and 50% it will end as a partially reduced product. Best results are found using a ghetto condenser with balloon. This keeps the HI contained.

On the other hand, Swim prefers a PP to a balloon for larger rxns.

It has become either run smaller rxns with a balloon (and longer rxn times) or larger rxns with a RP kicker.

Swim now uses .25 pts of the recommended ratios of lab grade RP or .5 of the recommended ratios of MBRP in conjunction with phosphorous acid to make sure that proper recycling is initiated.

The problem with PA is that it will run good and strong up to 3-4 hrs, after that it will continue to react but it becomes blatantly obvious that the percentage of HI in solution falls to below the 57% mark and the rxn begins to slow or often times die. Most would assume, "its not reacting therefore it must bee done" ...NOT

PA has a recycling problem.

JohnDee recommended using RP with H3PO3 as a kind of "hybrid" rxn and he has never had any nightmares since.

Swim runs 1E, 1.4 I2, 1.4 H3PO3 and either .25 pt lab grade RP or .5 MBRP with .6ml dh20 per g of pseudo.

Using RP as a kicker, one does not have to use heat and wait for the 73 deg C magical temp before HI is produced.

The RP will kick it off without heat and Swim allows it to react without heat until heat becomes absolutely necessary. He believes that is the problem he was having using H3PO3 solo (without RP) he would bring the temp up fast and in the process send all the HI gas into the PP unit where it becomes lost and unavailable to the rxn. Less HI in the flask means less reduction.

He will then SLOWLY bring it up to 110C and leave it there for 18-24 hrs. (Or whenever PI3 crystals are observed in the hose whichever comes first) Takes about an hour to hour and a half to reach 110C...

Swim uses a 1000ml florence submersed in an oil bath with a #7 stopper and 1/2" braided PVC hose that comes up about a foot and is fed into a 2 1/2 gallon bucket. The hose is fed into the bucket from the side about 2" from the bottom and up through a hole cut in the lid.

The hose comes up about 1 ft from the top of bucket and is then connected to a push pull unit (consisting of 2- 2 1/2 gallon gas cans)

The second can has a hose that is then fed into a plastic whiskey bottle full of silica gel kitty litter.

The 2 1/2 gallon bucket condenser is filled with "pre-chilled" blue artificial ice bags to keep it cold. (Swim has tried using regular ice but it melts too fast, and the hose leading down to the flask must bee wrapped with a towel to prevent a potentially hazardous incident) The fake ice lasts 3 times as long and leaves NO mess and minimal condensation.

Big bulky setup, but it works.


WizardX

  • Guest
Crude Air Condenser
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2004, 05:11:00 PM »

I just took a 48" flourescent light tube and knocked the ends off and washed with dishsoap and a clothes hanger with a sponge connected to it to remove the white inside.

Put a balloon on one end and wrap teflon tape on the other until it fits snuggly in the flask and your good to go




A crude air condenser.  :)  If you wrap alfoil around it and shape four fins in a cross + shape you can get greater efficiency.


LoRE

  • Guest
is that the blue gel packs because swim has...
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2004, 08:16:00 PM »
is that the blue gel packs because swim has been using ice and damn it melts fast.....swim has a 60cm lieberg condenser fed by a 25 lt esky with a 1000lt per hour max fountain pump fixed to the bottom the lid was cut in half and one side glued to the esky and the out and return lines were fixed to this side and the other half of the lid was left to facilitate easy access for ice,, 3 inline ball valves where added so multiple condensers could be fitted and aided in drainage...the setup is very compact and selcontained this works great but it takes about 5 bags of ice in 12 hours..........thanx for the artificual ice tip scottydog

oh buy the way the whole lot cost less than $AU90 thats about $US3.50 isnt it....    lol

spectralshift

  • Guest
Scotty
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2004, 10:29:00 PM »
ScottyDog, you seem to have come out of your shell. ;-)

Scotty! That was all awesome hands-on info man. So you reckon the H3PO3 has degraded like JD, who you admire stated, or do you think it's just in PA's nature?

What about adding KI for a 2nd phase, would that work alright?

Scotty, the push/pull is the gateway to controlled, pressurised rxns, don't you think? All thats missing is the math and numbers yeah?

SHORTY

  • Guest
Good Idea Wiz...
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2004, 01:47:00 PM »
A crude air condenser.  If you wrap alfoil around it and shape four fins in a cross + shape you can get greater efficiency.
Actually, its so long that it condenses about 3/4 of the way up the tube.  When i put a 12v computer type fan blowing upwards it took less than half the tube.

The glass is very thin so it doesn't take much to keep it cool.


spectralshift

  • Guest
foil with a layer of damp cloth on top of the...
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2004, 02:26:00 PM »
foil with a layer of damp cloth on top of the foil, with a fan will work to decrease the temperature even further if required.

An australian invention the cool-guardi safe allowed things to bee kept cool this way even in the desert in old times.
I doubt the inventors discovered that evaporation tends to cool, nevertheless, there you have it.

ahgreich

  • Guest
bomb-diggity?
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2004, 06:39:00 PM »
seems like that aluminum foil would be the coup de grace for the glass bomb that will shard thy arse if the pressure spikes.

gluecifer69

  • Guest
Any bad experiences.....
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2004, 06:05:00 AM »

seems like that aluminum foil would be the coup de grace for the glass bomb that will shard thy arse if the pressure spikes


 


Just wondering if SHORTY has had any bad experiences with the flourotube?
I would think it is relativly safe, because SHORTY's ideas are usually well proven and effective. :)

I would think that the balloon would help alleviate some of the pressure.  Doing a LWR swim doesn't see how there would be any great pressure spikes.  Could someone explain?
/gluecifer out




SHORTY

  • Guest
Never had a problem...
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2004, 07:36:00 AM »
I seriously doubt that the tube would explode before the balloon would but the balloon has never gotten much bigger than a softball anyways.  I few balloons have had holes in them but that was no big deal either.

I will admit that i have done some stupid, dangerous and unnecessary stuff when it comes to the process of making meth.  But this does not fall into any of those categories.

It would take an awful lot of pressure to cause one of those tubes to actually explode.  If anything it would just crack.  Never had one do that during a rxn either.  I did have crack after the rxn when i was taking it to the sink and hit it on the frame of the lab door. 

I am on my second light bulb condenser and my fifth real  condenser.  3 of the real ones did crack during a rxn.