Author Topic: Anethole epoxide from oxone  (Read 8841 times)

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Chromic

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2002, 02:54:00 AM »
Twodogs, I agree. I have tried it myself as well!

Distill the crude epoxide at atmospheric temperature. No polymerization happens. If you have the monoformyl or monoacetyl glycol it will work as well (however, you will notice the smell of acetic acid or formic acid in the distillate).

Vibrating_Lights

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2002, 05:36:00 AM »
Some bee will post pics soon.
VL_

backburner70

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2002, 12:21:00 AM »
Chromic - re:volume efficiency, Doh! Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about the associated volumes. I was more concerned with the oxone byproducts and salts interfering with the hydrolysis. Still learnin...

While we are on the subject of thermal rearrangement, if H2S04 relfux yields are about 50-60%, and thermal rearrangement yields are about 50-60%, has anyone ever tried iso-saf epoxide with LiBr/LiI in ethyl acetate?  Not exactly as cheap and OTC as the others, but I am curious if it is as high yielding as with the 3,4-dimethoxy in the European patent on Rhodiums.

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Chromic

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2002, 08:34:00 PM »
There might be other OTC methods to hydrolyze the epoxide... more experimentation is definitely needed in this area. I don't know who has tried the LiI rearrangement, a quick search with TFSE revealed nothing but talk...

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/guest.phenylacetone.txt

is a good read of a description of dimethoxypropenylbenzene epoxide being rearranged with LiI in EtOAc.

Rhodium

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2002, 09:05:00 PM »
Search for a Ritter post. I believe he tried the LiI isomerization.

Chromic

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2002, 07:10:00 AM »
In 228754 Ritter says:
>Rhodium,  (I have) never run the epoxide rearrangement with LiI.

A good read on the synthesis of LiI by Ritter is in

Post 228375

(Ritter: "Re: Ketones from Propenylbenzenes via the di-bromides", Novel Discourse)
. But, more importantly, there has got to be other salts (likely hard Lewis acid cation / soft Lewis base anion) that would affect the rearrangement in good yield.

Osmium

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2002, 10:46:00 AM »
LiI is hygroscopic as hell, to make it completely anhydrous (and I think it has to be completely anhydrous) you will need a GOOD drying agent.

Osmium

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2002, 10:49:00 AM »
Read the whole thread, the LiI synth by ritter doesn't work as posted, he later corrected himself!

Rhodium

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2002, 01:05:00 PM »
The preferred method of drying LiI is to heat it over P2O5 in a vacuum dessiccator for 1h at 60°C and then 1h at 120°C. That is pretty vigorous conditions.

Chromic

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2002, 10:13:00 PM »
Os, thanx for the correction. Point of my post being: the Pinacol rearrangement and the epoxide rearrangement are both acid (or heat) catalyzed... and there's got to be lewis acid catalysts that are weaker than sulfuric acid (which tears at the molecule in places we don't want it touching) but are stronger than LiI (which won't even rearrange a glycol).

Flip

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #30 on: February 03, 2002, 11:13:00 AM »
I think i'm gonna take VL_'s back on the thermal ATM rearrangement issue as per the results of

Post 264485

(Vibrating_Lights: "Thermal isosafrole epoxide rearrangement trials", Methods Discourse)
.

backburner70

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2002, 09:23:00 PM »
For what it is worth:

"25.5g of crude anethole epoxide was removed from the freezer and placed in a simple distillation unit that utilized a sand bath to provide heat. Stirring and heating to 200°C commenced. After about three hours and numerous cranks of the heating dial, nothing had distilled across so the bee went "insulation crazy". More sand was added to the bath and the still head was wrapped in rockwool. After about three more hours and numerous more cranks on the heating dial nothing had distilled across. The max temp had been reached on the hotplate, so the whole unit was shut down and allowed to cool. After cooling the bee expected to find a charred black mess in the distillation flask, but instead found that the red/gold epoxide had turned into an opaque black liquid.

The sand bath was replaced with an oil bath and vacuum distillation was commenced. The first fraction to come across was a mobile brown oil (ketone!) with the exact properties described elsewhere by Chromic. 9.3 grams of ketone, bisulfite tests confirmed this. The next fraction came across about 14° higher and was a pale yellow oil, similar in smell to the original epoxide, 2.9 grams that was assumed to be the glycol. (How does one test this?) 

The remaining contents of the flask would not distill across at higher temps.  This is primarily because of the fact that upon cooling, the distillation flask contents turned into a thick, black tar. Clean up was achieved by soaking in acetone and using conc. sulfuric to clean up the remainder. The magnetic stir bar used was toast.

Amination of the ketone was not attempted."

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Rhodium

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2002, 10:14:00 PM »
Why use sand baths? They conduct heat very inefficient and uneven. You really risk breaking glassware using sand.

uemura

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2002, 10:19:00 PM »
backburner70!


Did you check Uemuras first write-up on the anethole ketone in

Post 243262

(uemura: "Epoxide Rearrangement Example", Methods Discourse)
?

Rearrangement
The crude! epoxide was loaded together with some boiling stones in a 250ml flask equipped with a small Liebig condensor. The flask is heated by means of an electric mantel. At 260DegC (760Torr adjusted) the epoxide starts to boil (measured inside the liquid). Some 'spurious explosions' caused by the bumping stones or epoxide happened without getting out of control. The reflux is continued for 90min, the inside temperature stayed at 263DegC.
After cooling down a normal pressure destillation setup was performed. The flask was heated again and between 255 and 275Degc (*) 19g of a clear yellow-green oil came over. Then the temperature dropped down, a red-brown liquid remained in the destillation flask (Temp liquid > 283DegC). This is a yield of 19g ketone from 30ml olefine, approx. 57% yield which isn't really good but isn't bad either. (**).
A bisulfite test with 1ml of the received destillate worked like a super-duper-easy confirmation, no oily precipitae, after 20sec shaking pure bisulfite compound (light yellow in white gel) appeared.


There was indeed a brown-red residue, likely the glykol. But not tar, neither had problems with clean-up later.

Here is a typical pic of the apparatus used for rearrangement (this time not a Liebig, but just an air cooled condenser)


The anethole ketone is a yellow oil which solifies in the freezer:


Carpe Diem

Vibrating_Lights

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2002, 02:04:00 AM »
Vac distil your epoxide befoer attempting rearrangement and your flask for the rearrangement will clean easy.  godd luck cleaning the flask.
VL_

backburner70

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2002, 08:04:00 PM »
Rhodium - Sand was used because an RB flask was the only one available at the time and peanut oil didn't seem a good choice.  No mantles here. The lab space isn't exactly "luxurious," think "ghetto".

Uemura - I did see that post, but I was following Chromics "just distill" advice. No big deal. I later found out that the hotplate is only rated for 260C, tops, and I don't think it actually even made it that far. This exercise was not meant to be exactly on the money, it was more for education.

VL - Conc Sulfuric did the trick (finally!). 24 hour soak in acetone, 2 hour soak in H2SO4.

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LaBTop

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2002, 07:20:00 AM »
Why not use a bunsenburner open flame for the high temp atmospheric rearrangement??
Safes your hotplate, stirring seems not really important here, shaking will do. LT/

WISDOMwillWIN

LaBTop

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2002, 07:25:00 AM »
I once thought about using soldertin as a heating bath for high temps.

Would like to see what happens when you can find out if soldertin which is mixed IN the flask, will interfere with the epoxide reaction. If not, then you for sure will distill all oil over at atmospheric pressure, leaving behind just fluid soldertin. Pour that out fast, and your flask will be as clean as a baby bumm. LT/

WISDOMwillWIN

Vibrating_Lights

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Re: Anethole epoxide from oxone
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2002, 12:29:00 PM »
in vl_,s dream a colmans camping stove was uses.

VL_