pointers needed on h3po3 extract from mixture

[barkingburro]

found an OTC product used for pool treatments 'metal, stain, and scale out'. contains polymaleic acid and phosphonic acid. no others listed. any hints on how i could try to remove the phosphonic?

[mwarlock]

I know that polymaleic acid has a bp of 101-103 C.  Now your bp on phosphonic acid should be higher say, about maybe 153 C .  If  the polymaleic acid is powder it will melt at 21 C.   Is this pool cleaner a liquid or powder .  If a liquid could you not just do a fractional distilation and collect all your left over goodies since the polymaleic acid is going to come over first.

[barkingburro]

the mixture is in solution. water i would expect but am not entirely sure of. can be sure that there are nor heavy metals or chlorine in the mix since h3po3 reacts very strongly with metals esp. the heavier ones, and since there is a huge warning 'do not use if chlorine is over 100 - 300 ppm (big range doncha think)', so, hopefully we have polymaleic and phosphonic and water and thats it.  as for a fractional distillation i have my reservations. h3po3 breaks down more readily into h3po4 with heat and especially in the presence of water. i'd also worry about any hot spots that put the temp to 183 which is the thermal breakdown point to phosphinic acid ( i think...that's a lil foggy)... sooooo

where's that leave me and or us? i am thinking a rextal. first i think i will measure volume and weight, then set in dessicating chamber, reduce volume of h2o and re-measure and weigh. from there a somewhat oddish rextal?  any thoughts

[Osmium]

> I know that polymaleic acid has a bp of 101-103 C.

Polymers ususally do not have boiling points.

[barkingburro]

he active ingredient of Belclene 200 is polymaleic acid. The CAS number is 26099-09-2
Typical physical properties
appearance            clear amber liquid
odour       slight
solids content       47-53% w/w
specific gravity       1.16-1.19
pH (undiluted)       < 2
viscosity at 25°C       12-30 cPs (10-25 cSt)
boiling point range       100-102°C (212-214°F)
freeze point range       -5 to -12°C (10-23°F)
solubility
     in water
     ethylene glycol
     methanol
     50% caustic soda       
miscible
miscible
miscible
readily neutralised with the evolution of heat
steam volatility       does not steam distil
pH limitations       to avoid precipitation, formulate below pH 2.5 or above pH 8.0. At in use concentrations Belclene 200 is stable at any pH.

Thermal stability (TGA)
Thermogravimetric analysis has shown that Belclene 200 is stable up to a temperature of 300°C (572°F).

Chemical reactivity/compatibility
Belclene 200 is not affected by chlorine or other oxidising biocides under normal use conditions. Test for compatibility with long chain nitrogen compounds. aliphatic amine and quaternary ammonium compounds.
Logistics
classification            irritant for supply
corrosive for conveyance
IATA class 8 UN No 1760
IMCO class 8 UN No 1760
packaging       HDPE 220L XL-ring Mauser drum
height 935 mm
diameter 580 mm
gross weight 249.5 kg
net weight 240.0 kg

Regulatory approvals
FDA (USA)            21 cfr 173.310 - boiler additives
21 cfr 173.45 - beet and cane sugar
21 cfr 573 - poultry watering systems
USDA (USA)       G5: cooling and retort water
G6: boilers, steamlines possible food contact
G7: boilers, stearnlines, cooling systems no food contact
A1: clewing compounds: meat/poultry plants
MITI (Japan)       Japanese discharge regulations

Toxicology data
acute oral LD50 (rats)            >5000 mg/kg
eye irritation (rabbits)       irritant (EEC guidelines)
skin irritation (rabbits)       non-irritant (EEC guidelines)
toxicity to fish
     98-hr LC50 (rainbow trout)
     96-hr LC50 (carp)       
>100 mg/l
>100 mg/l

Ecological data
96-hr LC50 (brown shrimp)       580 mg/l
48-hr LC50 (daphnia magna)       >1000 mg/l
48-hr LC50 (sludge inhibition)            >1000 mg/l
COD       1199mg O2/g
TOC       1050mg O2/g
biodegradability       18% in 35 days (OECD 302B screening test)

Further details on safety and handling are available in the material safety data sheet on this product.

[SHORTY]

Isn't phosphonic acid the same as phosphoric or h3po4? If so it can't bee used to make HI insitu and there are several otc sources for phosphoric acid which would probably bee easier to obtain.

[barkingburro]

aslo known as phosphorous acid. OTC baybe, and it's looking good.... well, theoretically. and just in case we need the reminder.. h3po3 + i2 + p/fed =  methamphetamine

thankyou, thank you very much

[Osmium]

>> Polymers ususally do not have boiling points

> this one does
> boiling point range 100-102°C (212-214°F)

No it doesn't. That's the boiling point of the water in that product.

Maybe the H3PO3 can be extracted with an organic solvent?

[Xaja]

H3PO3, whether its phosphonic acid or phosphorus acid, still isn't H3PO2 which is hypo which will regenerate HI.

Unless H3PO3 works the same? That would be good...

[barkingburro]

h3po3 plus i2 at 87deg C produces HI. GOD DAMN. and another thing this question of yours WAS ALREADY ANSWERED. DO YOU EVEN READ THE THREADS POSTS???


ok, my forehead vein has gone down. and for the info of any-one interested, polymaleic acid is miscible in h2o, ethylene glycol and methanol. h3po3 is miscible in water and alcohols... which i have not verified yet

[ChemNewbie]

I was just wondering why anyone would bother trying to extract H3PO3 from anything else when it is so readily available in 97% purity, no questions asked? Swic has purchase it many times with no problems whatsoever.

And for those who have never used H3PO3 in liu of red phos, trust me it works very well. Swic has done about a bajillion H3PO3 synths and has had VERY few failures. It is much easier, and the rxn completes much quicker than your standard 36hr reflux. The yield and quality are also pretty much identical.

I'm not sure about Poly(maleic acid) but plain maleic acid is soluable in acetone, while H3PO3 is not. H3PO3 is readily soluable in all alcohols.

You might also be able use flash cromotography, maybe?

Just my 2 cents.

[biotechdude]

The H3PO3 in foliar solutions is in the form of the mono/di potassium phosphites; and extraction techniques vary accordingly. 

It might pay to check what form your phosphonic acid is in...

[barkingburro]

is becasue anything OTC is essentially non traceable. and h3po3 is now becoming a questioned item. or perhaps it's just swibb's experience? plus anything OTC from a 24 hour store is great for emergencys. this is an exersize purely in knowledge not neccesity.

[ChemNewbie]

this is an exersize purely in knowledge not neccesity

Makes sense.

I hope you are successful in finding a good extraction technique, because unfortunately, everything good in this "hobby" eventually comes to an end