Use of LOW frequency sound to promote reduction

[clandestine]

swim was thikin in a sub-dream like state that it could be possible to stimulate the reduction of E to M with low frequency sound waves during the LWR cook.

This idea is based on the fact that invisible frequences of sound can move through anything thats exist and for the most part of it the effects have always been positive.

Swim thinks that by positioning a SUBWOofer capable of emiting these low frequency sounds within proper range of the RXN vessel could stimulate positive results within the LWR and possibly other RXNS as well.

I know it sounds crazy but there IS an effect on every single thing that exist when sound passes through it.

Here is a small diagram thingy swim made on this idea.


I really think the effect of soundwaves.. particularly LF frequencies on molecules being reduced and changed should be studied somewhat because the results could be very positive.

If this study has been carried out in the past im sorry but we have never seen or heard of anything like this.

More info will come when time permits proper studying on this.

[kris_1108]

Hmmm, interesting post.
If the sounds waves could benefit the reaction, that would bee great. The subwoofer enclosure could be tuned with ports to have maximum frequency response at THE FREQUENCY (lest say 45hz???). Therefor it would be mostly efficient with that given frequency.
Could these be factors - flask size? size of reaction? Could the sound waves speed up the rxn?
Could one get away with slightly less rp/i2? (more efficient rxn)
Could the rxn benefit from the sound waves at all?
Would a specific frequency be best? Or a sweep?
Hmmm!
It will bee interesting to see what the others have to say.

The neighbours would pobably get annoyed of 'that sound' after two days strait haha!

[clandestine]

Ya kris..  also remember it shouldnt take much of the frequency to have an effect. Human ears dont have much frequency audibility and we dont hear much of whats going on around us unless its within a certain frequency.

However animals have a much wider range of hearing capabilities so we know for a fact there is lots of things we cant hear that do exist.

I know the frequency of sound wavs would have SOME effects on the molecules when it passes through them.  The question is would the effects  benefit the molecules ability to reduce from the tiny vibrations alone caused by the invisible soundwave moving through it.

There would be more effects other than just vibration as the wave passes through the molecule.. expecially as the molecues are being stripped.

I think the area deserves research myself..  usually shitty ideas dont come from those primitive sub dream like states without some merit of importance.

Heres a little bit of information on the charecteristics of soundwavs and how they travel through molecules.

I have sister post of this over the WetDreams and im trying to get as much input as possible on this idea and the possibilites.

Sound Waves
Produced in matter by a vibrating object. All sound waves are longitudinal waves, produced by alternating regions of Compression and Rarefaction.

Factors effecting the speed sound waves -- Temperature, Elasticity, and Density of the medium.

Sound waves move quickly through matter that is elastic, such as steel and nickel. Most liquids aren't very elastic. Gases are the least elastic.

Sound waves move well through matter that is dense, since the molecules are closer together.

Heated molecules move faster than colder molecules, therefore sound travels faster through warmer air than through cool air. At sea level, Sound travels at a rate of 331 m/s at zero (0oC) degree Celsius. The speed of sound increase by approx. 0.6 m/s for each increase in 1 Celsius degree.

So we see that in the longer cooler LWR cooks the sound would pass through the molecules slower giving it more effect in my opinion.

[auntyjack]

the frequency range you are talking about has big waves...80 hz = 4.25 metres  45 hz = 7.5 metres...having a stab in the dark, it would seem as if the benefits of sound on a reaction would be the extra energy added to the system but from what i understand there must be a correlation between the size of the elements to be effected(molecules?) and the wavelength of the sound wave...i imagine low frequency sound will pass throught a reaction without imparting much energy...i reckon ultra high frequencies might be the go though you'd best ask rhodium

[clandestine]

Thanks aunty..

I was saying low frequencies because they have the ability to pass through the flask much easier than high frequencies..  Also.. would it just be the energy?  I was thiking that the actual soundwave could impart positive results to the actual molecule being stripped or something to that nature.

How would we be able to pass high frequency sound through the wall of a flask without blasting our eardrums out lol...  hmm it could be possible though...  you would have to put the speaker right up next to the glass and amp it up a lot i think.

Good post though... thanks for the thoughts!  at this point anything helps.

[auntyjack]

acoustics is very complicated..there are ways of getting frequencies to propogate through ordinarily inpenetrable materials using specific angles as to make the path of the propogation an even multiple of the frequency in question...or something like that...though you could get high frequencies into your flask through the top of your condenser...BUT!!!; i've just remembered that ultra low frequencies alter the non ferous nature of copper in some way so you might be onto something.. but i imagine it is horribly complicated...but please don't let me stop you from finding out because i know bugger all about chemistry and it could be as simple as pumping KORN or TOOL through your reaction...wouldn't that be groovy...this is some KORN meth and this was made with KING CRIMSON...HA!...i'll go and have a look for that article on copper and ulf's..

[Organikum]

The only low-level noise known to man which can rip hearts, souls, brains and even molecules apart is Wareami singing.
I used this once with good success......
.....but soon after I had to expatriate.

All other low-level forms of sound equal shaking or bumping with a spoon against your flask. Sound is not able at all to affect molecules directly - ultrasound has effects by cavitation - thats indirect already.
Look at the wavelengths - the shorter the wavelength the more energy is in the wave. Already visual light has not enough energy for most photoreactions - shorter wavelength - UV is needed. Now compare light to sound and you will understand.

Light - bright sunlight or an UV-lamp - affects the reaction you are talking of. This is referenced and was tried by not me and by really not me but a monkey-like bee.

Hey! A rhyme, a rhyme!

[dwarfer]

Just as ultraviolet light is higher in energy than
infrared (with the same amplitude), so is ultrasound
higher than the low frequencies to which you refer.

the woofer sounds may penetrate the walls of your apartment, or car, (much to the annoyance
of your neigbors or neighborhood)
 more readily than the middle and higher ranges,
 but this means little as regards the application
you have in mind.

Attenuation of sound by reflection, absorption,
or diffusion is difficult to accomplish at low frequencies.  Car metal (and gypsum board walls)
needs to be able to resonate lower than 
the frequency of the sound to dampen it,
which it cannot, or the absorbing surface
needs to have pores that can reflect sound
back and forth amongst its fibers,
 which padding mostly cannot do either.

Thus the "information" contained in the annoying
and repetitive bass thump travels out to be
dissipated in the
volume of the space around it:
distance will eventually
do it, thank god, or I'd have to have a bazooka
to dispatch
those low-riders and their 112dB
880 watt sound machines.  

So, what is the difference between your
basic 20 Hz 200 watt bass driver thumper and
an ultrasound device that can
influence the progression of a reaction such
as that to which you refer?  Neither has a wavelength
that would support it's promotion or chemical reactions...

Two things:


1.  the intensity is much  higher as the cupped "horns"
of an ultrasound "cell homoginizer" can focus the sound waves
into small volumes with energy densities
that are (at least)
10⁵ higher than the
long-wave sound waves that you
discuss:




2.  The principle means of enhancing the reactions even with these
apparati derives from the formation of
"micro bubbles" within the reaction water
(usually), the collapse of
which focuses the energy back to the center
 of the radius of the sphere,
with astoundingly high energy densities.

Note that the energy formation and transfer
is dependant on the mechanical properties
of the liquid: the ultrasound
waves "stretch" the water apart into vacuum-"holes"
whose collapse provides the means for the reaction enhancement.

bottom line is that low frequencies cannot do this.
 thus then, the exercise is void....

(Here is a continuous flow horn in which a fluid containing the reactants to be subject to the ultrasound treatment
can be passed continuously: also, cooling water can
be provided in the SS metal jacket.)

^{one wonders at the efficiency which might be
added to the phosphonic acid reduction scheme recently
espoused in this forum..  ":<)}

=========================

It is interesting to postulate that the collapse
of sonic-produced bubbles could provide the
energy density neccesary   to initiate fusion,
and this has been tried.

(The energy density at the center theoretically
approaches infinity in ideal situation calculations,
and has been measured  to be in excess of 10⁶ C.)

To the best of my knowledge the attempts
have not been successful, arising from
the fact that the bubbles distort
to a bit less than absolutely perfect spheres
during their short lifetime, and thus the
implosion is not perfect.

Maybe they could arrange to do the experiments in
zero gravity??  Yeah: beam the energy to earth
by microwave.  And if there was somebody you
didn't like you could just cook 'em..
yeah, that's the ticket...



references:

R. P. Taleyarkhan et al., Evidence for Nuclear Emissions During Acoustic Cavitation, Science 295, 1868 (2002)

F. Becchetti, Evidence for Nuclear Reactions in Imploding Bubbles, Science 295, 1850 (2002) (in Perspectives)

C. Seife, "Bubble Fusion" Paper Generates a Tempest in a Beaker, Science 295, 1808 (2002)

===============

generally edifying:

 

http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/#index

[dwarfer]

what you need is your basic "tuneable"
infra red laser...

==========

Maybe some nice-bright LED's??

[clandestine]

So would effect would the actual vibrations of the intense bass have on the rxn... it would be a physical real effect that would be similar to magentic stirrer or something right?

Im sure the vibration would be something... could it be useful?

If one was to edit their own bass wave and burn it to cd to play for a few days while aimed directly at the flask one would accomplish a constant energetic source of vibration into the rxn..  could this be useful?

[dwarfer]

if you set the beaker on the cone you would stir the
solution, right.

Consider a shaker table...

":<)

[auntyjack]

i'd hate to think of the sound pressure levels you would need to send the reaction into any sort of stirring type motion...put a beer next to a sub woofer next time you see iron maiden and you will notice little motion due to the sound...energy will enter the reaction but very little unless the flask and reagents are voluminous enough to support low frequencies which means using a pretty darn big flask...but i must reiterate that ultra low frequencies do effect the magnetic nature of copper so who knows what chemical/sonic anomalies lay as yet undiscovered, but it would seem that at this point in time, no, there is no evedence that low frequencies will do anything to the molecules involved in a meth reduction...a mechanical stirer would be much more efficient...but still don't let us rain on your parade...it's very easy to get the idea that scientists allready have everything under the sun worked out but you'd be surprised...

hey dwarfer, have you heard of that sea crustacean that produces a bubble implosion that emits a 200 decibel sound and a flash of light ah-la sonoluminescence by snapping it's pincers together? aparently it is quite dangerous

[dwarfer]

??influenced by ultra low frequencies??

So if I tap on a penny every 30 seconds it will turn magnetic??

I guess 60 CPS doesn't do it, because the bus bars in my circuit breaker box  are still unmagnetized..

References please   ":<)       

======================

I'd like to see more about that underseas creature, too.
at least THAT one i believe..  

====================

Given that IR is about the longest wavelength that
influences chemical-bond related activites,
I'm looking forward to some mechanism as to how
low frequency sound waves lines up Cu atoms..
":<)

[CharlieBigpotato]

ever notice, when you happen to slide a glass containor with a fluid, over a certain surface, the surface of the fluid will beecome very agitated? i've noticed this most with a milkshake.
the vibrations will tingle the hand a bit, too.

also, an experiment was preformed (sorry, forgot who) by a couple of scientists who wondered how dna strands in fluids manage to not beecome all entangled, like strings do in a box.
the strands are very long, compared to their width, yet they don't get tangled up.

anyway, they arranged an experiment with a vibrating table top, and a bunch of fine, long chains, like a necklace chain.

the vibrating table top moved the little strings around, but they did not tangle.
then, they actualy put some loops and crisscrosses and simple knots in the chains (not pulled tight, of course) and the vibrating table top actually untangled them all after some time.

why i mention this here, is beecause, possibly, some sounds could 'relax' long chain polymers, that they might release their imprisoned amine.

[auntyjack]

that was manganese...hang on...i've only got the article on paper and i'm not typing it all but the guy says manganese can absorb sound waves..."manganese can only couple up with phonon energy when it occurs in it's trivalent octahedral form.."   "manganese atoms are exposed to high intensities of infrashock...sufficient to metamorphose the actual atomic structure of the manganese atom...from it's normal paramagnetic form to a rogue ferrimagnetic form,ie from a temporary to a pemanently magnetisable form"...so you need a sonic boom or something similar, ho ho..anyway, this guy is studying the effects of the brain taking up manganese instead of copper and this being the cause of mad cow disease...his name is mark purdey...he doesn't give references for this fact so yeah, he might just have had too much acid...
       as to the noisey crustacean, i've been looking but can't find a reference on the net...i'll pm it if i find one

[dwarfer]

http://www.mritutor.org/mritutor/magnet.htm

Good stuff on various metals in strong magnetic fields.

About the milk shake phenomenon, I know what you mean, and
I think that has to do with the slow speed of sound in
such semi-frozen lipid solutions.   That sounds totally bogus,
but I think i read that somewhere.

Now thats not as persuasive as manganese in it's tetrahedral poly-(ambi)valent rogue phone-non-trapping
state, I know, but there you are,,
     

[auntyjack]

aparently(don't have the article) someone has discovered all these tiny little sounds that cells make in all of it's processes and apparently you can play these sequences of sounds, which are actually notes, back to a cell and make it go through certain processes...like a song for every action...
       not wanting to drag this thread too far away from the topic of meth, there is hope that sound waves in the future could be used in to interact with matter in more complicated ways than we can concieve of now. generaly, the behaviour of sound can be described using good old newtonian mechanics but some guys in mexico who studied the bumble bee for decades reckon that even "normal"(non relativistic) mechanics has to be made a lot more complicated to encompass the flight of the bumble bee...in fact the bumble bee is only one amongst many other insects that use aerodynamic principles that were only discovered by our scientists in the 80's and are little understood to this day...so the book is definitely not closed on the possibility of complicated wave interactions between sound  and matter...

dwarfer..thought you'd like the trivalent poly blurgidy blurg though you have made me nervous about this so called fact...i'm gunna look this guy up

[livid]

well to start with, those frequencies in the range of interest make one revolution around 15 feet away. also two of the same frequencies will cancel each other out. Wareami,why don't you finish this, I am getting tired.