Author Topic: Possible pill extraction aid  (Read 2160 times)

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suss

  • Guest
Possible pill extraction aid
« on: January 13, 2004, 06:43:00 AM »
Hello bees,

Swim has been reading about some gakks that are apparently "activated" by water, so it would appear that dry basing, using no water, would be a good idea for pill extraction when pushing the sudo into the NP, right? Or is he barking up the wrong tree?

So anyway, swim got thinking:

"How can he base a non polar/sudo mix without using water, alcohol, or any polar or semipolar solvent?"

Then gassing came to mind. Some bees use HCl gas to precipitate sudo, why not use a basic gas to do the opposite?

Swim isn't sure if this would work, but the idea seems feasible to him (he's pretty sure someone will prove him wrong though).

So swim started wondering what gasses are basic, and immediately, NH3 came to mind - easy to make from NaOH and ammonium fertilizers.

So basically, could we gas a NP with NH3 to push the sudo into it, and would this be superior to current techniques? There would be no need to worry about polar/NP interfaces and such, and water activated gakks would be a thing of the past. BTW, ammonia solutions only have a pH of 12, which may be useful in preventing gakk activations.

Someone tell swim why he's wrong, PLEASE!

spectralshift

  • Guest
good ideas.
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2004, 03:32:00 PM »
I think your right suss. But just a reminder that plastics, waxes and glues are the obstacle to yield.
Heating and mixing these doesn't prove sufficient, they really do hold on.

With amonia gas and NP's, that's not the answer because what are you gonna gas? a powder on the bottom?  :)


here's some NaOH properties.


Properties:  Fused solid with crystalline fracture. Rapidly absorbs carbon dioxide and water from the air. Very corrosive (caustic) to animal and vegetable tissue and to aluminum metal in the presence of moisture. Sold as lumps, sticks, pellets, chips, etc. When kept in tight containers, the usual grades contain 97-98% NaOH. mp 318degrees . d 25 2.13 . One gram dissolves in 0.9 ml water, 0.3 ml boiling water, 7.2 ml abs alcohol, 4.2 ml methanol, also sol in glycerol. Gener ates considerable heat while dissolving, or when the soln is mixed with an acid. Volumetric NaOH solns used in the laboratory must be protected from air to avoid formation of carbon ate. Concentrated NaOH solns dissolve practically no sodium carbonate. The pH of a 0.05% w/w soln approximately12, of a 0.5% soln approximately13, of a 5% soln approximately14. Density, boiling and freezing pt data for (w/w) water solns. d 4 15 : 5% 1.056 , 10% 1.111 , 20% 1.222 , 30% 1.333 , 40% 1.434 , 50% 1.530 . bp: 5% 102degrees , 10% 105degrees , 20% 110degrees , 30% 115degrees , 40% 125degrees , 50% 140degrees . fp: 5% minus4degrees, 10% minus10degrees, 20% minus26degrees, 30% 1degrees, 40% 15degrees, 50% 12degrees. LD orally in rabbits: 500 mg/kg (10% soln) (Fazekas)


Here's KOH:

Properties:  White or slightly yellow lumps, rods, pellets. Very caustic to tissue. Rapidly absorbs moisture and CO 2 from the air and deliquesces. mp about 360degrees ; mp 380degrees when anhydr . Sol in 0.9 part water, about 0.6 part boiling water, 3 parts alcohol, 2.5 parts glycerol. When dissolved in water or alcohol or when the soln is treated with an acid, much heat is gener ated. Keep tightly closed and do not handle with bare hands. A 0.1 M aq soln has a pH of 13.5. LD 50 orally in rats: 1.23 g/kg (Smyth) .


NH3 properties:

Properties:  Colorless gas; very pungent odor (characteristic of drying urine). Lower limit of human perception: 0.04 g/cubic meter or 53 ppm. One liter of the gas weighs 0.7714 g. d 0.5967 (air = 1) . mp minus77.7degrees . bp 760 minus33.35degrees . Densities of liq NH 3 (temp; press.): 0.6818 (minus33.35degrees; 1 atm); 0.6585 (minus15degrees; 2.332 atm); 0.6386 (0degrees; 4.238 atm); 0.6175 (15degrees; 7.188 atm); 0.5875 (35degrees; 13.321 atm) . Critical temp 132.4degrees; critical press. 111.5 atm. Heat capacity (25degrees) 8.38 cal/mole/deg. Mixtures of ammonia and air will explode when ignited under favorable conditions: Angew. Chem. 43, 302 (1930), but ammonia is generally regarded as nonflammable. Cor rosive, alkaline gas. pH of 1.0 N aq soln 11.6; of 0.1 N aq soln 11.1; of 0.01 N aq soln 10.6. Water at 0degrees holds 47%, at 15degrees 38%, at 20degrees 34%, at 25degrees 31%, at 30degrees 28%, at 50degrees 18%. d 4 20 (aq solns): 0.9939 (1%); 0.9811 (4%); 0.9651 (8%); 0.9362 (16%); 0.9229 (20%); 0.9101 (24%); 0.8980 (28%) . fp (aq solns): minus2.9degrees (4%); minus8.1degrees (8%); minus23.1degrees (16%); minus34.9degrees (20%); minus44.5degrees (24%); minus69.2degrees (28%). Solution of NH 3 in water is exothermic. 95% alcohol at 20degrees holds 15%, at 30degrees 11%. Abs ethanol at 0degrees 20%, at 25degrees 10%. Methanol at 25degrees 16%. It is also sol in chloroform and ether. Liquid ammo nia produces low temps by its own evaporation. Heat of vaporization: 5.581 kcal/mole. It is a good solvent for many elements and compds. Usually marketed in liquefied form in steel cylinders or as ammonia water (aqua ammo nia, ammonium hydroxide) in drums and bottles.

suss

  • Guest
Well, swim's not sure exactly how ...
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2004, 07:57:00 PM »
Well, swim's not sure exactly how "normal" gassing with HCl works, but his understanding is that the NP can hold HCl gas, and therefore becomes an acid medium (and thus causes sudo HCl salt generation and it's precipitation. Using a gas alleviates the need for water right?

So swim was hoping for a procedure along the following lines:


1. Multiple soaks and boils with strong solvents, decant off solvents. This hopefully removes all NP soluble material, and glues amd stuff.

2. Final soak in NP, heat, gas with NH3 to drive sudo into NP, decant off NP.

3. Evaporate to reveal sudo free base, or gas with HCl to give sudo salt.

biotechdude

  • Guest
NP clarification
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2004, 11:54:00 PM »
"...but his understanding is that the NP can hold HCl gas, and therefore becomes an acid medium..."

IMHO...

A NP can 'hold' freebase amines.  It is inert to pH.  It is the pH of the co-solvent (usually water) that dictates how good of a solvent it is.  Put another way, water is a poor solvent of freebase amines; NP is a good solvent.  When the water is raised in pH, all the amines travel to the more soluble medium (the NP).  So the NP itself doesn't change pH; merely 'accepts' the freebase amines (eg pseudo). 

That said, gassing works by having a suspension of freebase amines in a NP.  When anhydrous HCL gas is bubbled inside a NP, it quickly leaves the NP and disperses into the atmosphere.  HOWEVER, on its quick journey out of the NP, it converts the freebase amines to an amine-HCL salt.  The salts are insoluble in the NP; so they 'drop' out of the solution and to the bottom; where they are then filtered/separated from the NP.

So perhaps if one had pseudo hcl in an alcohol or water, then gassed with NH3 to make basic; the then-converted freebase would migrate into the NP without activating gaaks normally activated in a standard a/b (using NaOH solution).

spectralshift

  • Guest
suss biotech is right enough, and use the...
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2004, 03:33:00 PM »
suss biotech is right enough, and use the newbee forum, that's not how A/B's work at all. (this is your description im referring to suss.)

The way I see it is that there are two A/B routes to clean pfed, the first is pre-washes, then novel variations of dry basing. (e.g. what you are talking about, except yours won't work  ;D )

The second pre-wash('s), uses water, uses the same water to then basify.