Cheap, easy, white phos production

[turditis]

I would like to share my latest discovery on how you can
easily produced your own at home electric arc furnace
capable of reaching the temp required to produce white phos
at home.

Purchase a big (maybe older, used, believed to be bad)
Microwave Oven. Ammonium Phosphate, an on/off switch,
pottery vase, high temp sealant, and charcoal(step on the
bag to crush)

Always remember not to touch a high voltage
capacitor(rectangular metal cased thing with 2 terminals)
until it has been discharged (short the two terminals with
a wire very carefully). White Phos is very dangerous if not
careful, look up medical info before trying this yourself..

Ok, what we're gonna do is remove the case on the microwave
oven(unplug first). Now remove the power cord, high voltage
capacitor, and the high voltage transformer. Capacitor
described above, the high voltage transformer is a big
chunk of iron with 2-3 seperate copper windings wound
through it, your microwave may have more than one
transformer-we want the BIG one. Be careful not to break
any wire terminals.

The transformer should have a thicker copper wire winding
where 110VAC power plugs into it, another copper winding
that only has a few turns which we will completely ignore
this copper winding, and a third copper winding with
thinner wire aswell as a bunch more turns than the other
two windings-this third winding will provide a reasonable
amount of amps at 2800VAC so be carefull when plugged in.

Attach a lengthy medium gauge wire to the iron core itself,
this will be one of the 2800VAC circuits wires used to run
to the furnace we'll call Wire1.

Attach power cord with on/off switch to the two terminals
on the thicker copper wire winding where 110VAC comes in
at.

Reattach wire to terminal available on the thinner copper
wire winding(you may have 2 terminals available, either is
fine) that originally connected transformer to
capacitor(either terminal on capacitor is fine. May have a
high voltage diode connected on a capacitor terminal that
used to ground out on the frame, that diode is not
recommended to hook up, it is used to double the voltage to
half-wave DC at 5600Volts). Now from the other terminal on
the capacitor, where the diode was connected, connect a
lengthy medium gauge wiree.
Mains 110VAC==[*Transformer*]--['Capacitor']----'Wire1
   Wire To Iron Core|---------------------------'Wire2
Sorry for my art work...ark for fun now by mounting
everything so it cant arc anywhere except from Wire1 to
Wire2, and please have an on/off switch installed. Ark for
fun by mounting wire2 safely somewhere, tape wire1 to end
of insulated screwdriver (electrician tape only insulates
below 600Volts, dont trust it to insulate you from a bare
wire). Turn on device and either bring ends of Wire1 and
Wire2 close enough, or strike them together and pull apart.
Different electrodes seem to ark different colors and
temps, as well as ALOT of other variables, try a carbon
rod....never ark directly against the iron core, instead
use the other end of the wire connected to it..after
turning off device, press wire1 and wire2 together for 10
seconds or more to discharge the capacitor and save
yourself, unplug device. Now feel the iron core and gently
feel the copper windings, if they seem hot, your
transformer is probably a small one and you shouldn't ark
for more than 10 seconds without allowing to cool.

Ok now for White Phos...mix ground charcoal and ammonium
phosphate(find in plant fertilizers) in fairly even
proportions, maybe a little extra charcoal. Drill hole in
bottom of vase and insert any electrode you
want(woodscrew), seal this temperature resistant sealant.
Drill hole higher up on vase and insert second electrode
somewhere that sitting level it wont touch any of the mix
if vase was filled with phosphate, charcoal mixture, seal
this electrode aswell(seal electrode only where they are
inserted into vase, must be able to make good electrical
contact inside to ark and outside to connect wire1 and
wire2). Connect a piping/tubing(piping can be used as one
electrode) system to water bubbler(bubble into an upside
down cup inside a bowl, or something). Seal off your vase
well. Wear insulated gloves, turn on device, and in normal
sitting position should have no ark, tilt the vase so the
mix spills over inside vase completing connection(lights in
room may dim/flicker and you should be able to hear it)
then slowly tilt back-this will strike our ark, and heat
the hell out of contents.

If you have all lights off in a dark room, you can see
leaks rather well, with device off after its been used
sometimes you may have glowing smoke visible where it
leaks. White Phos will only glow when its exposed to the
air, check to see if its on something or leaking in a dark
room. Get yourself a some damned medical info on toxic
effects of white phos, knowledge will save your life-phos
will take it.

Convert White Phos to Red Phos by heatting water from the
bubbler, until the white phos "dissolves"/melts in the
water. Filter this to remove any impurities, allow to cool
till white phos is noticable again, filter again to remove
white phos. Place phos in a vaccumed out flask with a trace
amount of iodine. Heat this "cant remember exact temp, look
it up" until its all converted to the MUCH safer Red Phos,
keep in mind you will most likely have small amounts of
white phos present in your red phos do the water thing
again to remove most of it..Red = Safe, White = Careful

                  have fun and scuttlebolt
                  scuttletwacked Crystal Seth

[Organikum]

somehow I miss Dwarfers comprehensive writing style.......

Is this right:
- the high-voltage from a MOT is connected to one electrode at the bottom of a ceramic vessel and to another electrode near the top of the vessel. The vessel is filled with a carbon - ammoniumphosphate mixture whereby the mixture has good contact to the electrode at the bottom but is not in contact with the upper electrode. The vessel is tilt to make the contact and to fire the arc up, then brought back to upright position whilst the arc burns between upper electrode and mixture.

- The MOT is the ballast which is needed for the negative resistance characteristic of arcs. What puzzles me is the fact that usually LOW VOLTAGES are used in electric arc furnaces and the question: How far will this arc jump at 2500V+ ?

I would suggest to wear gloves made for high voltage works.

[spectralshift]

I don't know about this microwave transformer and capacitor.

I wouldn't personally do this I don't think but very well done! The rating you get for this is irrelevant.

Have you tested this?

The bubbling to get RP sounds dodgy to me. Maybe you could react the WP with Nahydroxide to get sodium hypophoshite?

As I said, well done for working on this highly adventurous pursuit.

[turditis]

[spectralshift]

Are ya fucken deaf, are you?

Have you tested it? It's been so appropriately rated.

"hehehe"

[Mr_Bronson]

This is hypothetical bollocks. Once the medium becomes hot enough and conductive, the microwave transformer will die. The whole thing is bollocks. Why not use a welding torch to heat the material? Fucking around with 5 KV won't work and is extremely dangerous. Microwave transformers chuck out enough current to instantly fibrillate the heart, and insulating 5 KV takes some knowledge of high voltages. This is absolute bollocks and dangerous too.

[Organikum]

keywords:
can be dangerous, arc furnace, ballast, salt-water rheostat, white phosphorus production.

But an arc furnace is easy like shit.
Use an saltwater rheostat for lowering and limiting voltage/amperage.
(here the limiting properties are most important as as soon the arc lights up the ionised air lets resistance go down to almost zero and this would blow your fuses.
A ballst coil so big enough would do the job also but where to get a big enough one and saltwater rheostats are almost no cost and work fine.

ATTENTION! Electricity has darwinistic properties! ATTENTION!

After the rheostat a array of stron diodes should be applied for full-wave rectifying the AC to DC. Some big capacitors will smooth the current and keep so the arc alive.

Rectifiers and capacitors MAY be disposable - this has to be tried.

A theoretical possibility would be to use the primary of the MOT as ballast - but what a hassle in comparism to a saltwater bucket with two stainless steel nails as electrodes! Use as less salt as possible for suppressing any chlorine generation and other shit which might happen by oversalting the water. NaOH may be used as electrolyte and be the better choice over NaCl aka tablesalt anyways.

An arc-furnace is in reach - no question, and it IS capable to produce white phosphorus.
Which is IMHO much more a danger than the furnace ever can be.

[spectralshift]

garbage, even the most simple of thing's on paper prove to be more complex in practice.

A car battery is the go, and by the sounds of it, if the arc length and heating area is even in question with these setups then, well... I can't say the same.

apart from that the feedstock can act as arcing medium.
Not withstanding the fact that the heart of an arc isn't the required temperature, it's more like 2x the temperature atleast.


youve just never seen a car battery pump out an arc, that's the truth, I have. it creates an arc bigger than an arc welder too.

What did you think I posted about a few insignificant sparks that looked pretty? This isn't the case, the arc from carbon rods, wires and a car battery is impressive and useful.

[Organikum]

look here:

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/guest_timwelder.html

But the MOT has to be rewound - no high voltage, low voltage is the way to go!

The page

http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com

has all other answers necessary for high temperature furnaces homemade, cheap and easy. But as Hammer pointed out correctly: The problem is the white phosphorus.


Question to Hammer:
Duraweld is a PLASTIC welding process.
Says Google.

An electric arc for plastic welding ??

astonished.
ORG

[spectralshift]

[Polverone]

From what I've read (correct me if I'm wrong) the needed sustained temperature shouldn't be much more than marginally above the boiling point which is roughly 300.00 degC = 572.00 degF.
A homebuilt charcoal fired furnace with a small blower will reach 660c which is the melting point of aluminum in a matter of 15-30 minutes.

Unfortunately, the required temperatures are quite a bit higher. If a bit above 300 C would do the job, anybody with some metal pipe, furnace cement, and a propane torch could do it. I tried to be that anybody, and it didn't work. I did find that if I directly applied the torch flame to the carbon/acid sludge, it would bubble merry flammable phosphorus bubbles where it was heated to incandescence, but this was an orange glow, no mere ~300 degrees.

See

http://bcis.pacificu.edu/~polverone/muspratt2/c-0679.html

and following pages for a real 19th century perspective on furnace production of phosphorus.

The heat of the furnace in which the retorts are placed should be very slowly raised, allowing at least three hours to heat to redness; afterwards it is urged vigorously till all disengagement has ceased, the process requiring from fifteen to thirty hours, according to the size of the retorts. The superphosphate of lime, although dried at a high temperature, retains chemically-combined water, which is liberated by the superior heat of the furnace. At first, therefore, a mixture of air and steam is disengaged; afterwards, when the charcoal becomes incandescent, a mixture of hydrogen and carbonic oxide, evidently proceeding from the decomposition of the water by the hot charcoal - HO + C = H + CO. When the retort has attained a bright red heat - that is, after the lapse of about four or five hours - the nature of the gaseous products is changed. The superphosphate of lime is decomposed into basic or subphosphate of lime. This last, in contact with incandescent carbon, yields phosphorus, which rises in vapor, distills over, and condensing in the liquid form in the tubulure, flows down and collects under the surface of the water.

(pg. 682, emphasis added)
Notice the curious (flawed) 19th century chemical equation but the far-more-valuable practical description of the process. It takes a lot of heat and a lot of time to produce phosphorus by reducing phosphate with carbon. It can be produced in a shorter time by the application of higher heat, but this was not economical at the time because it lead to faster destruction of apparatus.

For the would-be-producer of phosphorus on a small scale, I think the tradeoff should be made in the other direction: apply as much heat as you possibly can, to make the reaction go as fast as possible. Who wants to tend to a phosphorus furnace for 15 hours at a time?! This is why the arc furnace is attractive: phosphorus should be produced very fast indeed by the heat of the arc (relative to conventional heating). Keeping the arc spacing correct, so that the arc is maintained as the rods are consumed, might be a challenge. There were several patented designs for automatic regulation mechanisms of this sort in carbon arc lamps, so it certainly can be done in a low-tech way. But I am not much of an engineer or machinist, so I have never really investigated what it would take to build an arc furnace with such automatic regulation.

For those interested in using a conventional furnace or propane torch, I will say as I have said many times before that using aluminum in place of carbon as the reducing agent leads to marvelous improvements. The problem becomes mediating the reaction and (as with all other methods) dealing with the extremely hazardous, hot product.

[spectralshift]

[spectralshift]

[Osmium]

> BAN! BAN BAN BAN!! Bannety ban!!!!!!!!!! banbanBANBANAN BABY BAN! CUM ON!!!

Done.

[gsus]

we should all know what happens when an ammonium salt of a mineral acid is heated. we all know what smell attracts pigs like no other. so this method is great if you want a swat team to swat you. if not-mix Ca phosphate or the double or triple superphosphate with sand and C. Heat and the 1st product is Ca silicate slag and sublimed P205. the P2O5 then reduced by the C as it is formed, or this can b a separate procedure if you already have P2O5 and you get white P. or you can use phosphoric acid and skip the sand. either way the reaction has to bee red hot and 02 free or your big pail of water receiver will just contain phosphoric acid. in the old days the reaction was: 4 moles H3PO4+16C(sawdust,charcoal,or coke)=6H2+16CO+P4. this was accomplished by refluxing in a cast iron pot till the liquid thickened, at which time heat was removed due to an exothermic reaction. when it started to cool down, it was heated to 250C for a day, then the red P was removed by chucking all in H2O and grinding underwater, then boiling w/Na2CO3. heating white P @240-250C for 40 hrs, or a shorter time with I2 cat.,both in absence of O2, or 300C in a bomb for a few minutes gives red P. traces of white P are removed w/organic solvent like CS2. keep in mind LD of white P is 100-150 mg. inhalation gives very uncool phossy jaw. im sure this is all in TFSE but i didnt LITFSE just like everyone else.

...i opened the book and looked inside...
deep, dark, elder writing...and i knew the revelations