Author Topic: How to wire a DIY heating mantle?  (Read 10191 times)

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DRIVEN

  • Guest
How to wire a DIY heating mantle?
« on: May 30, 2004, 08:46:00 AM »
Swid was wondering if any bee interested in lending some advice regarding the wiring of a DIY heating mantle.  From what swid has read, it is important to know how the nichrome wire gauge and length relates to its resistance. Electrical is not swids strength and was wondering how to wire this mantle such that it’s temperature can be regulated in a practical range.

Following lugh’s design

Post 403446 (missing)

(lugh: "DIY OTC Heating Mantles", Chemicals & Equipment)
, a mantle (250ml RBF) was constructed with Portland cement/diatomaceous earth.  Embedded in the mantle is a non coiled, 2.9 ft., AWG 30 nichrome wire which had been harvested from a hair dryer.

The controller being used is a ceiling fan speed controller (max 5 AMP, 120V).  The mantle is to be powered from a standard wall electrical outlet (120V).  Below is a summary of all the information gathered.  Information gained from tables from a nichrome wire website is indicated by an astrix

Length of wire: 2.9ft (35”, 90cm)
AWG: 30 (0.25mm diameter)
*Required Amps to heat straight oxidized wire to 205 deg C: 0.92 Amps
*Required Amps to heat straight oxidized wire to 982 deg C: 3.3 Amps
*Resistance for AWG 30: 6.5 ohms/ft (assuming NiCrA)
*Total resistance for 2.9ft wire: 18.9 ohms (2.9 X 6.5ohms/ft)
*Given hot ohms for this wire is 18.9, then amps are 6.09 and watts are 700.

A quick test was done where a 2ft length of the 30 AWG wire was hooked up to the aforementioned fan speed controller which was powered by a standard electrical wall outlet.  When the controller was turned onto the lowest setting the wire quickly glowed red and broke! (perhaps not surprising to you electrical savy bees).  Will a resistor of some sort have to be employed?

Any help is much appreciated.

Driven :)


Nicodem

  • Guest
Recalculate
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2004, 10:48:00 AM »
May I ask how do you expect 90cm of thin wire being able to carry 750W of power!?
If you want a heater regulated from 0 to 300W (which should bee just fine), you need the length of wire that will have 50 ohm resistance (calculated for 120V). That would bee ~19 feet for your wire. But you better use an ohm-meter and measure the resistance. Don’t just “assume” it is 6.5 ohm/ft!
And still I doubt 19ft of wire can radiate 300W of heat without burning out. You would better connect parallely two wires of 100 ohm each so that each will bee twice as long and radiate 150W each. That will make reduce the power/ft to 1/4 and you will still have 300W altogether without burning the wire.

Edit: If you have no clues about electricity I should remind you that the wires must not get in touch with each other when built into the concrete. Otherwise the short circuit will reduce resistance and cause them to burn.


_mu_

  • Guest
May I ask how do you expect 90cm of thin wire...
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2004, 04:03:00 PM »

May I ask how do you expect 90cm of thin wire being able to carry 750W of power!?


Duh, by cooling it with the things you want to heat up :-).

Seriously, you might want to start looking for ways that enable you to give the best heat transport from your wire to the thing you want to get warmed up.
 

And you also want a variable current supply.

Nicodem

  • Guest
Building a heater made from resistors
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2004, 09:06:00 PM »
When it comes to heating a reaction usually it is best to have an oil bath with regulated heating. This avoids hot spots and uneven heating of the flask as well allows for a better temperature regulation and the dissipation of heat which is especially important with exothermic reactions. Temperatures of 160°C or more can be used in an appropriate mineral oil. Also, maybe most importantly, such a setup allows for a magnetic stirrer to be easily employed.
Nowadays, magnetic stirrers usually already have a heating plate but they are quite expensive. Simple magnetic stirrers can be constructed from old walkmans, by using its parts: a strong magnet glued to the wheel with the elastic band connected to the electromotor which can bee regulated by a potentiometer connected on the walkmans’ electromotor rotation regulation circuit, all appropriately build in a box and feed trough an electrical adapter. It cost only a few hours of work and can make you feel more confident in further success if it works well.
An oil bath can be heated by simple 150 to 300W submersible water heaters which are quite cheap, though not always easily accessible. However they are quite cumbersome to use in shallow oil bath, take a lot of its space, have to be fixed on the bath somehow and the worst is that they heat the oil much more on one side than the opposite. This last problem can be circumvented by putting a stirring magnet in the oil but this magnet interferes with the one in the flask making it impossible to mix in some setups. Another problem is also that they are built for water which transfers heat considerably more rapidly than oil. Therefore the temperature at the surface of the heater coil gets higher forming more of that nasty burned paraffin smell at the full power.


Instructions too build a simple heater for an oil bath

I will here describe an effective and simple heating setup that works great for me. It can bee built for less than 3$ (rheostat not included). It shows relatively good temperature stability which depends a little on the external T, but is even in the worst case +/- 5°C the set T. It is so simple that with the given (way too detailed) instructions you need nothing more than the elementary school electro-technical knowledge. All you will need is ~40 resistors which cost ~8 cents/piece or less where I live. They are then linked and soldered together just like shown in the schemes. Like with any other setup without a thermostat, you will also need a rheostat to regulate from 0W to the max power. Present-day rheostats are electrical circuits using a semiconductor called triak (or thyristor) to chop off the waves of the alternating current until a certain time phase. This way they regulate the power output, for example, of an electrical bulb connected at it (or our heater). They can be easily built if one has some basic knowledge of electronics, but it is easier and less time consuming to simply buy it. The switch with a light dimmer incorporated is technically a rheostat and is most practical for our use (check its max working power when buying to get an appropriate one). Use an el. box to build it inside so you won’t have the deadly el. wires exposed! Connect the el. wires on it exactly like described on its instructions (or shown on its back) with the only difference that instead of the light bulb you will have a heater connected.
The resistance and max power of the resistors can be calculated very simply. For a small oil bath (for up to 150ml flasks) a power of 75 to 100W is just enough for up to 160°C. For a large water bath (500ml flasks) 300W should do. Better not exaggerate on the power needed.
The heater uses n circularly linked resistors in two, three or more circles (on the scheme: 7 green resistors in three circles). The electricity passes trough these parallel circles with the voltage drop on each resistor being U/n (where U is the voltage of the electricity in you country: 110V in the US; 220V in Europe). The red resistors have only supporting function, keeping the contraption together and make it hard to bend and deform. Therefore, their resistance should be very high while their nominal power should be low in order of not being too big and cumbersome. Use 1/4W or 1/2W nominal power and Y>47,000ohm resistors for 110V or Y>100,000ohm for 220V.
The green resistors will conduct the current and will therefore heat considerably. It is easy to calculate which type we need. Let us assume that we need an oil bath for a 150ml flask (P=75W) and we want to have 3 circles on a 220V network (k=3, U=220V). To get the number n we will assume that the width of the heather needed for the flask is ~9cm. We want the resistors to bee ~3.5cm apart so the circle will require a polygon made by 9cm*pi/3.5cm=~8 resistors. The red resistors connecting the el. supply wires together must be for structural support only, therefore n=(9cm*pi/3.5cm) - 1=7. Each circle will consume P/3=75W/3=25W so each resistor will have to dissipate P/(3*7)=3.6W. Resistors have their nominal power declared for dissipating heat in the air and to the circuit board they are ordinarily soldered on (the bigger they are more power can they dissipate). The dissipation when submerged in oil is surely much more efficient, let’s say about two times more efficient. It follows that we need resistors with the nominal power of 1 or 2W. The power equation is P=U2/R therefore the resistance X=(U2*k)/( P*n)=276.6 ohm. The nearest standard is a 270 ohm resistor and recalculating back we can see this little change won’t affect much the max power of the heater (it will make it 78W).
The wires connecting the three circles with the electric source must be isolated with a thermally stable isolation to avoid accident hazards! Varnished 1-2mm copper wires like the ones used in electromagnetic coils and transformators are ideal – their transparent and thin isolation is surprisingly tough, resistant to both heath and oil and they can be easily bended to get them elegantly over the edge of the beaker where they can are connected with a normal isolated double el. wire. Remove the isolation by scratching the wire with a knife, but only at those points where they will be soldered! For extra safety the small ceramic rings used as insulation for heat exposed wires can bee put on these copper wires (can be obtained out of the old stoves). Before switching on for the first time, better use an ohm-meter (a resistance measuring instrument) to make sure you got everything soldered correctly (it should show n* X/k=630 ohms, +/– 20 ohm).

For a 0 to 75W heater like drawn on this scheme we need:
21×resistor: 270 ohm, 2 W power dissipation(or 1 W if you can’t get these)
15×resistor: 100,000 ohm (=100 kiloohm), 0.25 W power dissipation
2×15cm of 1 to 2mm varnished copper wire for transformators
~1m of normal 2-wire cable
- Rheostat – a light dimmer in an el. box (the Pmax should be >100W, which is true for just about any)
- an el. power connector
(all can be obtained in any hobby electronics store)

You will also need a soldering equipment and ~10cm of soldering wire.


Warnings:
Don't use it in water or other conductive liquids!
Don't use it unless fully submerged in the oil!
Beware, the electricity can kill. Don't touch!
Don't use electricity (switches, connectors etc.) in the presence of explosive solvents!



xxxxx

  • Guest
hotplate from kmart $9.99
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2004, 04:54:00 PM »
i would go to kmart and buy a one burner hotplate with an adjustable temperature dial for $9.99. plus when you are not using it in the lab you can even use it to cook food too!

Nicodem

  • Guest
A hotplate?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2004, 07:41:00 PM »
How ingenious. Of course I use a hotplate for the usual reflux reactions. But can you come with an idea of how to use a hotplate with a magnetic stirrer?
Not all reactions are run at reflux and many require stirring. The submersible water heater is also simply too cumbersome to use for already said reasons. That's why I built the thing described above. It's as simple as it can get and very efficient.


xxxxx

  • Guest
some thoughts
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2004, 04:34:00 PM »
i have been thinking about that. one thing would be like stated above magnet on ceiling fan motor or dc motor with speed control. another thing which is on my mind is in elementary school we saw a movie demonstrating how an armature in an electric motor turns. an egg shaped magnet was placed in concave dish and the copper coils of an electric motor was placed around the dish. when current was passed through the coils the magnet began to spin. i really don't understand the principal behind this but if someone else did maybe they could use it to make the stir bar turn with an electricaly generated magnetic field instead of a magnet?

calcium

  • Guest
Used Heating Mantles...
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2004, 09:18:00 PM »
Used Heating Mantles can be had for short money at your favorite auction site.

Why risk building something which may fail during a reaction?

Soft heating mantles make life very easy. They work on your magnetic stirrer.

You'd probably spend as much on a home made 'mantle' as on a good, used one.

Just my two cents.

Sredni_Vashtar

  • Guest
Electromagnetic stirrer
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2004, 11:24:00 PM »
xxxxx: Electromagnetic stirrers like you say are available but expensive. Lots of electronics to generate a rotating magnetic field. I doubt you would get enough magnetic moment from motor windings held some distance from the stir-bar.

Nicodem's design is cheap but fucking dangerous. You'd want to run it off an isolation transformer at the very least.


DRIVEN

  • Guest
D agrees with Calcium.
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2004, 03:10:00 AM »
D agrees with Calcium.  IMO it makes more sence to purchase a used/new mantle than to make one (at least in the manner indicated in the initial post). Especially when considering the cost, time and hassle of making a mantle and the resultant risk that comes with the product. D is no expert but 2hrs were spent gathering the components, 5hrs to put it together (getting the wire to set right is time consuming and finicky), with about 35$ material costs. In the end the mantle cracked as it dried and D remembers looking at the damn thing and thinking that it wasn't worth trusting nor the anxiety that comes along with being unconfident with the product. 

On the other hand, it was a shit load of fun to make, especially the sculpting part! Also, in the end D learned a lot about electricity and nichrome wire.

There seems to be many ways to skin a cat.  This bee is going to stick with the hotplate/stirrer and oil bath option.

Nicodem: whoa dude, your diagrams are tight!

Driven :)


bio

  • Guest
home made
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2004, 04:02:00 AM »
Simple magnetic stirrers can be constructed from old walkmans, by using its parts: a strong magnet glued to the ........

Very clever Nicodem I hope you won the science fair. All kidding aside as an old EE I often thought of your scheme but the high ohm struts never occured to me. In the old days these were called suicide cords but I think the nayser who posted missed the magnet wire sentence. My old cup heaters work quite well with a fancy home built SCR rig (2 paralled for fun) but I really  got a good laugh from the opening sentence. Man, this guy is really generating loads of torque (lol). Think it might spin my 4 by 1/2 inch bar?

Nicodem

  • Guest
Home made equipment
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2004, 09:27:00 AM »
You all talk about how nice it is to use heat mantels, but I fucking hate those for a few reasons. The first is that where I live, I can't buy them without raising suspicions. The second is that they are mostly usefull just for reflux rections (there is no way to regulate the temperature in the flask). And they can burn some product with the hot spot that generate above the liquid level in the flask. I used to use an used one and it failed (the heating coil burned!). Now I use mostly just oil baths which are much nicer to regulate and allow for stirring.
The heater above can bee dangerous only if a stupid person is using it. The only exposed electrical parts are submerged in the oil and you would have to bee quite stupid to put your fingers in the oil bath and try to tuch the wires. Besides oil is an el. insulator and you would have to really press on the wire to get a shock. If you are a kind of person who can't keep his fingers away from electricity you can still put a transformer in beetwen and calculate the resistance needed for the transformers voltage. Or you can even put some insulation on the submerged wires.
I build two stirrers from a small 3V electromotor with a magnet atteched on it and a transistor regulating the rotations. They both work perfectly nice with standard mag. stirrers from 5mm to 5cm long. Never complained about them. It's no fucking big deal to build them. I did not bought any part for them. Everything was from some old stuff that would otherwise end up in garbage.
I really don't know why do you make such a big deal about making these things yourself. Didn't they teach you anything in the schols in the USA?


Sredni_Vashtar

  • Guest
Magnet wire
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2004, 11:08:00 AM »
bio: No, I'm not a naysayer. It's a good idea, but I don't like having exposed 240 Volt wires around the place, especially when you are busy and concentrating on other things.

Maximum oil temperature will be somewhat below the melting point of the solder connections (183C or ~225C for lead-free).

Edit:

Thinking about it, it is probably not so dangerous, but I'd still run it from an isolation transformer (they're good to have around anyway).

Nicodem, have you tried using a pulse-width-modulated power supply for the stirrer motor? That way you can maintain the torque at low motor rpm. You can make a good stirrer from a powerful PC fan like this. Cut the fan blades off and glue a pair of magnets onto the hub.


Nicodem

  • Guest
electromotors
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2004, 04:02:00 PM »
Sredni: I didn't use a PC fan electromotor because it is impossible to regulate their RPM by voltage regulation.  They are brushless motors with a circuit that does its best to keep the RPM stable. That makes them unsuitable for RPM regulation by changing the electric potential. Once the potential falls below the min U they loose torque and fail to stirr the magnet. I guess your idea of pulsed current works but making such a regulation is much more hard work. You would need at least an IC (like NE555) and a transistor. Instead all I use is a single transistor because 3V electromotors don't loose torque so stepwise. In contrast to a brushless motor like a PC fan, they simply draw more current if they loose rotations giving more torque.
In few words: A home made mag. stirrer works just fine and it only take a few hours of work to make one and a few old electro(tech)nical parts that cost nothing.


xxxxx

  • Guest
put wires inside pyrex tubing ?
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2004, 04:15:00 PM »
the exposed wires are the part that i like least. the nichrome wire could be put into pyrex tubing and then this could be shaped into a coil. this is how i tried to make a tube furnace: one pyrex tube wrapped with nicrome then another pyrex tube over that. i seem to recall that with modern electronics dc motors can be controlled very precisly as to speed and torque. i was reading design news which is a trade publication for engineers. there is too much good stuff in there to list but for dc drives and controls check cleveland machine controls and danfoss electronics.

Sredni_Vashtar

  • Guest
Motor controller
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2004, 05:57:00 PM »
Nicodem: I've been tinkering with a fan this afternoon. You can cut the speed by lowering the voltage with a series resistor but the resulting torque is poor.

xxxx: I've seen some PCM motor controller modules for 10-15 Euros at various hobby electronic outlets. Not sure how they'll interact with the brushless motor design though.


Nicodem

  • Guest
Nicodem: I've been tinkering with a fan this...
« Reply #16 on: June 02, 2004, 07:28:00 PM »
Nicodem: I've been tinkering with a fan this afternoon. You can cut the speed by lowering the voltage with a series resistor but the resulting torque is poor.

Indeed, such reduction in RPM is just the consequence of repeated failing in catching up the weakened magnetic field and not in the reduced rotation frequency of the field. Hence the torque is too bad to rotate the stirrer. That is the problem with brushless motors that I mentioned. The only way to usefully reduce RPM in such a PC fan motor is to reduce the rotation of the magnetic field. But the circuit controlling it is integrated inside the motor which gets hopelessly damaged if opened. I tell you, it is much better to simply use a normal 3V electromotor. It works great.

Edit: I can write detailed instructions on how to make the RPM regulator and put a magnetic stirrer togeder if I hear somebee telling me that it would bee helpfull.


Sredni_Vashtar

  • Guest
PC Fans
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2004, 11:56:00 PM »
Nicodem: You're right in what you say. PC fan speed control seems very limited.

Your heater is excellent. It would be good to have a Hive standard diy stirrer. The one on Rhodium's page is a good basis but runs on a shaded pole motor, and as far as I can tell, these are difficult to control well, too.

https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/chemistry/equipment/magstirrer.html



I just found this on the Mad Science forum :


http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1689


http://www.geocities.com/brainfevert/magstir.html



Also had this hotplate:


Much more productive use than flattening shirts.


ning

  • Guest
thoughts
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2004, 04:54:00 AM »
A lamp dimmer would probably work nicely to control mantle temperature, much lighter and more compact than a variac. Make sure it's strong enough to supply the wattage pulled by the mantle.

By properly series and parallel connecting wires, one could arrange for as much area as they wanted. Honestly, I think a 19 foot wire could probably handle 300 watts without too much trouble.

Apparently, multistrand picture-frame wire is nichrome and good for this sort of thing.

I wouldn't waste so many nice large resistors to make a mantle when nichrome is so easy to get.


xxxxx

  • Guest
ac motor speed related to frequency of ac
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2004, 04:35:00 PM »
in electronics class they told us that the speed of an ac motor equals the number of polarity changes of the current divided by the number of poles in the motor. so for an 1800 rpm motor on 60 cps has 2 poles. in order to change the rated speed you can change the frequency of the current. you can do this by buying a triplite power inverter and replacing the capacitor that regulates the 60 cps output with a variable capacitor. for regulation of the heating element, a light dimmer usually has a maximum of 600 watts. if you want to go above this a powerstat variable tranformer from superior electric might be a good investment.