Beating orange gakk, chapter two

[geezmeister]

While I cannot say which part of the process got rid of orange gak-- both kinds-- the meth from my last batch had none. The source of pills-- some Perrigo 120's, some generic white 60's, some zyrtec-D and some Allergan D-- were plenty gakky. The 120's and  Zyrtec were known to have the second orange gakk in amounts sufficient to be a problem.

The pills were processed by brand. The 120's, the Allergan and the Zyrtec were ground and put in a visionware saucepan with lid, covered  with xylene and microwaved until the xylene boiled. The xylene was decanted, fresh xylene added, and the pills microwaved until the xylene boiled. This was again decanted and the pills were covered with a solution of 90% VMP Naphtha and 10% Japan Drier. The pills were stirred and microwaved until the solution boiled vigorously. It was decanted and for each set of pills it was  noted that they had taken on a green tint. The pills were covered with VM&P Naptha and microwaved until it boiled. The pill mass was covered with MEK twice, the lid placed on the pan, and microwaved until the MEK was boiling.

The Straight to E method was used to extract all pills. The white  60's were extracted without the solvent boils as the brand was known to extract cleanly with Straight to E.

The three sets of pills which had been cleaned with the Naptha/Japan Drier had a distinct oily feel and a green cast. These were rinsed with MEK initally. They were then combined and dissolved in heated MeOH, filtered, and evaporated until they skinned over, at which time they were flashed  with MEK. The pseudo was panned to a corner and the MEK poured off. The greenish MEK was heated to crash out the pseudo and evaporate the remaining alcohol, and the process of flashing, panning, and decanting was repeated. It was noted that the pan had a sticky feel to it, and that while the pseudo appeared clean, still felt a little oily. The MEK that was used to flash was heated as before and flashed with fresh MEK, yielding a small amount of white pseudo and green tinted MEK that was oily and made the fingers sticky.

I noted the first evap dish had no sticky film and the pseudo was clean; the second pan and pseudo had a sticky film, and was rinsed with acetone, which was  collected in the third pan. The pseudo in the second pan after the acetone rinse was white and appeared clean. The small amount of pseudo in the third pan was rinsed with acetone and collected. The remaining green MEK/Acetone solution was  retained in a jar, reminded me of a light, green tinted syrup that remained sticky to the touch and would coat the surface it was on with a thin green film of sticky residue.

I reacted about two thirds of the pseudo collected in H3PO3 reaction which was heated on a hotplate until it the ingredients reacted and the balloon filled. The heat was then reduced to 115C and the solution refluxed for six and a half hours.  At that point it had not turned yellow, so the flash was heated until the solution boiled readily, the balloon removed, and about a quarter of the solution's volume of dH2O added. The solution became clearer and more yellow, then bumped hard and painted the ceiling, coated the outside of the flask and condensor, the hot plate and the countertop. The spill was absorbed in paper towels which were washed in hot water to collect the spilled solution. This portion was  washed with xylene twice, then naptha, based with TSP only and extracted into hot naptha. The naptha was titrated and evaporated with what appeared to be a good yield. The solution in the flask was washed with xylene twice and naptha, based with TSP and extracted into hot naptha. This was titrated and yielded a very small quantity of dirty meth. The fluid from the flask was then covered with xylene and additional TSP and salt added, and the xylene was collected, washed, titrated and yielded meth equivalent to that collected from the towels.

The meth was dissolved in IPA, which was  filtered, reduced to near saturation, acetone added and the solution allowed to cool. Crystals precipitated readily. Time constraints and an restless horde of straight meth users dictated that no further recrystalization be performed. Yield of recrystalized meth was low, but the amount lost due to the bumping indcident is unknown. The quality was, in my opinon, acceptable but not as good as it gets; the reduction was not fully complete but this was accepted because of the time constraints I was facing with the angry mob of weekend revelers who wanted something, anything, that resembled the real thing.

The point noted in this meth is that it burned completely clean, recrystalized easily, and showed absolutedly no signs of either orange gakk. The people who sampled this product all were very happy with it, but I was not; it was much cleaner and was better than the average product on the local streets, but not top notch stuff from the Geezmeister. The natives no longer danced, spears in hand, around the lab and the batch was sufficient for the weekend's sacrifice rituals. We celebrated beating the orange gakks, and started wondering whether the process was overkill, and which step or steps were essential to removing the oranges. The viscosity and stickiness of the green substance after the boiling in the naptha/Japan drier solution reminded me of higher weight PEGs, with something in the mix besides the PEG. My hunch is that this is our orange II gakk, but that is just my hunch. It may have gone with the solvents in boils, or part of it, and the MEK may have rinsed the remaining portion from the pseudo. I have never encountered this syrupy green oily substance before, note that it washed off pans easily and dissolved in water readily and that no additonal pseudo of any significant amount precipitated in it on standing or or heating.

[wareami]

Sir Geez:
Ibee stated which process killed the orange gaak and he's overjoyed that SWIG is playing with this further.
Ibee cranked out three batches that rocked.
All with minimal steps and using what he considered to be less than optimally cleaned!
If one were to check indepth the properties of ephedrine they will find a waxy/oily white crystalline substance.
At least that is what Ibee's research turned UP.
Not sure if the same holds true with pseudo.
Ibee was surprised at the post-rxn results with what he thought might be gaaked to the nines!
The acetone will remove all the blue....green...or whatever color that was brought to the surface by the napthenic spirits(JD)
The TCE also wards off oils.
Please feel free to experiment with the PurpleBeast Juice as it's outlined and Ibee feels you'll bee pleased with the results.
Keep in mind his experiences are based on a particular set of three different actifool knockoffs (white60's)
This is however a great report!
Keep UP the Good......
Peace of the reaction
Have FUN-Bee SAFE

Oh Yeah...I almost forgot.
I told you over a year ago that you were the GeezMonster!
I guess that makes me a WAREO Cookie

[awayman]

One time long ago someone brought by swims house about 2000 little pills they proclaimed them to be prescription quality. At the time (long ago) all swim used was denatured and about 24 to 36 hours of soaking time, a couple of filters, and 20 minutes in the atomic oven. That green slime was evident after 24 hrs in the jar used for soaking, passed right through the filters and when heated it got darker and darker until it looked like crude oil it had a smell that was like something dead. Note the substance was not heated until it burned, only for a few minutes. Then when the smell started swim said to hell with this and out the window it went. I don't know what it was but it ended the hopes of any meth creations that day.

[halfkast]

Geez this might bee something

"Metallic naphthenates are used in solid form or in organic solution with mineral spirit,naphthenic oil, toluene, xylene or other solvents. The properties mainly depend of the quality of naphthenic acids. Metallic naphthenates have a low vapor pressure and a flashing point > 1000 C. Metallic naphthenates are stable in air and have low water solubility. Heating decomposition takes place above 150-1800C. In presence of mineral acids are easy decomposed to naphththenic acids and inorganic salts. Alkaline solutions decomposed metallic naphthenates to metal hydroxide and alkaline solution of the naphthenic acids. Metallic naphthenates may react with strong oxidizing agents. Metallic naphthenates form by burning CO,CO2, dangerous pyrolisis compound, metal oxides with toxic effect in the cases of Cu nad Pb naphthenate.
   Copper naphthenate: is a green compound used in solution with a suitable solvent. The main use is as wood preservative, combining the fungicidal properties of copper and naphthenic acid. It is used in concentration of 0,1 % as Cu to control the growth of molds and fungi. It protects the wood against termites and other insect also. Immediately after treatment the wood becomes green but after a time the color disappears. Copper nphthenate is less toxic than phenols, cresols, chromium and arsenic compounds used in same purpose.
Copper naphthenate is used also as an inhibitor in polymerization of unsaturated polyesters. It decreases the reaction rate and the temperature and by this way the surface has a better quality.
Copper naphtenate is used as additive in oil lubricants and in fuels where it prevents oxidation. It is a more effective inhibitor than amines.
   Lead naphthenate: is used as solution in a suitable solvent as additive for different lubricants oil. The color of lead naphthenate solution is yellow to brown depend of the quality of the naphthenic acid. It acts as high-pressure additive for gear oils and greases, serving as polar surface activating and wetting agent.
   Cobalt naphthenate: in solid state or in an organic solution is used to increase adherence of the metallic wires to rubber in tires and in conveyor belts. It is used also as polymerization promoter for polyesteric resins or as dryer for paints and varnishes.
   Zinc napthenate: is used in solution with a suitable solvent. Its fungical properties are less strong comparative with copper naphthenate. It is used when a light color of the wood surface is important.
Zn naphthenate is highly resistant to oxidation and is used as a rust inhibitor in lubricants oil and may replace lead naphthenate."

A description of manganese naphthenate would bee nice. But they are all of interest and seem to do totally different things-the cobalt form promotes polymerisation for example and in fact.


They are made by reacting naphthenic acid(s) with bases such as carbonates, oxides and hydroxides of the metals.

I'm no expert (AT ALL), and this may not bee the kind of polymerisation inhibitor we need (but it might be, and looks like it is for orange) but it's a starting point.

Maybee at some point soon we can use solid inhibitors to bring an end to the age of polymers.

Maybee?

[geezmeister]

I had been on a bit of a run when I pulled this batch off, and really did not realize that I needed to back off a bit and sleep more. The wake up call at work took the place of what friends used to tell me. I guess I need to hang with those friends more often.

Everyone who shared the proceeds of the above experiment were dutifully impressed with its cleanness. It did form crytals well, and rapidly. Yield was low, but this was not, in my opinion, related to the pseudo but was related to short cooking time, clumsiness, and the cook having other things he really wanted to be doing which made him hurry.

The MEK the pseudo was rinsed with-- with the acetone it was rinsed with-- was allowed to evaporate. It left an orange powder, in fact several grams of it. I dissolved this in MeOH. It dissolved readily. I filtered this through a Charmin Plug, the boiled the alcohol off in xylene. Nothing precipitated out. The solution became cloudy, like something wanted to preciptiate out, but even the solids that made the solution too turbid to see through passed easily through three coffee filters.

The hot xylene left a sticky film on my hand. The glassware that I boiled off the alcohol in had a white film on it when I washed it with hot water. All over the inside of it. It was clear until the water hit it, then looked like white paint that had been carefully and evenly sprayed on the glass. It came off with a little rubbing in hot water. I am curious if this sticky film might not be the residue of the orange II gakk from the pills. I have never encountered this phenomenon  before.

I cleaned a collection of pills last night with xylene and naptha boils, followed by a boil in MEK/japan Drier at a 10:1 MEK:japan drier mixture. The pill mass was brought to a boil in this in solution with stirring and held there for four minutes. The pill mass was green by the time the heat was removed. This mass was boiled again in MEK, then rinsed in acetone until no green was observed in the rinse. The MEK rinse left a sticky film on my fingers. The final acetone rinse did not.

I will extract this evening with Straight to Bee, very waterless, however, with sodium carbonate and the base and MeOH used to mobilize the base. I will react the freebase crystals so obtained with H3PO3 and see if I see orange.
Reports by Monday hopefully.

[wareami]

Ibee doesn't want to jump to conclusions here, soooo.....point Blank!
Did SWIG try the non-boiling coldshot method of using JD/TCE in the ratios provided?
The TCE acts as a degreaser that allows the Japdrier to carry away some gaaks! Maybe it appears that way and that's not at all what it's doing. Maybe the combo utilizes the TCE to unencapsule the pfed of the polymers they were coated with.
Whatever is taking place, Japdrier is pulling gaaks.
We all know that TCE pulls polys and antihists!
To use Japdrier outside the presence of TCE is just inviting oilyness and greasyness...IMHO!
The whole process as outlined in Orangebowl thread takes 8hours tops(with alky settling times) on a 96ct box of white 60's!
The bigger the batch size...the more alkypulls involved=the more settling/evap time.
Peace of the reaction

Have FUN-Bee SAFE

[geezmeister]

No, but recent events suggests he will pursue the method with vigor in the near future. Something about the color of angry naptha.

[geezmeister]

Ware was discussing Orange II gakk in another thread and I wanted to comment on parts of his posts-- but wanted to tie them to an orange II gakk thread.

Wareami noted :

"All the captives that Ibee's obtained in solution are Oil. When evapped...it's still oil! They don't have a structure but the fuckers sure are structured to reek havoc."
The orange II gakk is most likely a high-weight PEG type molecule, and probably is very similar to polysorbate 80; it may be definable as polysorbate 80 for labelling purposes but vary from the compound used in candy manufacturing. PEG in the 8000 range would be an oil, not a solid. It would be very water soluble. I would expect this weight PEG to change polarity at pH extremes.

>Is it narrow shards going at all angles?
While it gives the appearance of having a structure, it does't. Most likely, What SWIHK is seeing is the pfed structure contaminated with OII gaak! Also note that OII, when deactivated, but still present with pfed, it inhibits xtal formation!
How about doing a couple of pre-reaction dual solvent recrystallizations of the pseudo? If the orange II is present in significant quantity, it should inhibit crystal formation. You would at least know you are gakked. With the Straight to Bee and Straight to E and the Xylene Clean precip techniques, its easy to want to skip this recrystallizing step.

On exp dates 08/06 white 60's, the "slanted egull" combats the OII nicely. It just takes alot of tone to wash the OII off the pfed xtals pre-rxn! This is similar to my experience using JD with naptha. I used MEK rather than tone, but with multiple MEK washes I got clean pseudo and sticky, green MEK that left a pile of orangish powder when evaporated. This would likely be residue of the JD-broken orange II gakk molecule. Until the breaking with JD, there would have been no orangish powder. It would have been an oil.

(and in another post:) It's believed that OrangeII gaak is a twofold whammy. If it's not deactivated in the extraction phase with solvent, OR BROKEN...by fine granulation, it encapsulates the amount of psuedo used in a side step marrying prior to pressing. I think that finely powdering the pill mass has more to do with the solvent's access to the pfed molecules than it does with mechanically breaking any bond the gakk has with pseudo. If the bond were one that had to broken by fine powdering, filtering alone would keep the orange II out of the extract, and it doesn't. The pseudo and orange II gakk both dissolve, and the physical encapsulation you theorize does not withstand being dissolved. Finer powdering increasees yields, but I really suspect the mechanism is not what you are theorizing.

Only slight amounts need to follow the pfed in the extraction (acid/base or alky) phase for it to become a post rxn inhibitor. You are dead on on this observation. Orange II in a filter from a previous reaction contained enough of the gakk to foul up the scraps from a final pull and the acetone jar from an orange II free reaction. That filter was tossed in the alcohol with the one containing the pseudo from the orange II free reaction's acetone jar... and right after it was, SWIG remembered why that filter hadn't already been cleaned... too late.
Ibee says BROKEN because he's notices different sized aggregates granuals when fine seive straining that weren't present a year ago. This is the reason Ibee uses a mortar and pestal and a fine seive strainer. Never a grinder or blender! Note comment above on particle size
OrangeII travels right through acid/base extraction if it's not removed. My experience also, but I note that non-polar solubility increases as the pH increases. NaOH will bring it; sodium carbonate does not seem to do so as much, nor does TSP.
It's alcohol and water soluble and it luvs naptha. I agree that it is alcohol and water soluble. If it loves naptha, it loves it after the pH of the solution it is in has been raised about pH 12. Naptha boils alone do not remove orange II. Hot naptha is an excellent solvent to remove lower weight PEGs, but it does not seem to dissolve Orange II. when the longer chaing molecule is broken as we think happens with JD, the natpha will dissolve most of the debris. What it doesn't get, seems to dissolve in MEK or acetone. It's designed to travel with the pfed. It survives in the HI/RP rxn because of the water factor... It has solubilities very similar to those of pseudo, and likely was  selected for that reason and the anti-crystal formation property.
Ibee believes the side step involves taking some finely ground powdered pfed and coated with this Orange II substance holding the smallest powder sized pfed captive. It needs to be penetrated to release the pfed but the act of penetration the pharm chemists bank on is solvent or water to insure that the extract is contaminated. If the coating and the pseudo are both water or alcohol soluble, what difference does it make what size the pfed powder is? Soak a little longer, let the solvent dissolve them both. Or grind finer and have less solid for the solvent to soak through before it dissolves all the pseudo and orange II gakk.

I'm not so much disagreeing with you Ware, as I am debating the points you make

Halfkast commented on Ware's post in the other thread:

"Ware when OII(?) gak is activated(?) by overbassing and heating in the overbased solution, it appears to form an orange oil-like solution with the acqueous solution. true?
This oil-like orange solution isn't soluble in the Non-polar, well it certainly doesn't appear to bee.true?

I think it might be better to assume the oily orange solution is slightly soluble in non-polar solvents, as it usually shows up as hot non-polar solvents cool. This suggests to me that it is slightly soluble and precipitates out of hot solutions as the temperature drops. This would explain why the "xylene clean" pseudo precip technique semms to reduce the orange II gakk problem where it is present in the pseudo.

So upon evaporation of this NP no orange oil is seen, just clear shard-like crystals, and glacier-like crystals.true? 
So these final crystals are likely pfed.fb dissolved in OII crystals, that are just hanging to bee activated by an acid.
is that right?
Hard to say. I have noted that PEG will be present in freebase pseudo crystals precipitated out of non-polar solvents, and I imagine the same would happen if the non-polar were slowly evaporated. Since this orange II gakk acts like the PEGs do, but likely is a longer chain, higher weight type of the molecule, it will likely find its way in the crystal lattice of the freebase pseudo molecule. I suspect that is how it gets through the extraction of the pseudo and to the reaction where freebase is used. That at least is how I visualize the pathway.

I have not been working with orange II gakked pseudo much of late. I have some soaking in water per Hellman's method I have not extracted yet. My time in the lab has been limited for the last few months and what time I have devoted to this pursuit has been spent with orange II free sources.

[weaz1dls]

SWIW agrees that the tone/jd/tce works well. Until the 12/05 date is past.

SWIW just recently had a dream of 12/05 wht 60's.  The fleas were hungry so the whole procedure reeked of waste.  

No tce so the pills were mixed w/denatured, fine filtered w/aspirator.  The filtered liquid was reduced in the micro with boiling stones from aprox 350ml to 90ml. Then it was suction filtered again to remove the stones n gritt and crashed out with aprox 600 ml of tone.(room temp just opened) Room temp at this point doesn't pull as much h20 from the air when again it is suction filtered and rinsed with tone in filter. The liquid in the receiving flask was filtered again later after visiting the freezer for a while. To be added to the next dream. Usually only a gram would show.

All the crystals at this point looked the same.  In another thread

Post 472037

(weaz1dls: "Sorry", Stimulants)  SWIW talks about the star burst that can be seen if a recrystal is done from here. SWIW didn't even bother this time, though as agrivated as SWIW was the results were better that expexcted.  20 boxes  pills=18.5g psuedo. after disolving again in denatured and flashing out again it was down to 16.35 of a possible 28.8.(ya right 28.8 not in this dream ) So after the semiwet pie sun driven on the 2nd phase. the dried result of the titration yeilded 11.4.  Final shards after 2nd rerock 10.56. Had SWIW not have used so much tone or done the second flash est return would have probly dropped to 7.0g.  Guessing from prev dreams in a rush. The mother liqure from the re-rocks was evaporated to a thick orange oil that eventually formed shards these could be ground with tone the re-rocked again dual solvent slow formation. If not left to dry it would take some old tricks w/temp of dish and a dab of tone followed by hair dryer, then micro, then dab again, etc.  But why waste the effort when time will do a more efficient job.

As for the 01/06 pills, the reason SWIW started this post, is SWIW has thrown every Leg from the Bucket and every Tool from the Shed at them. 

Can at least one Bee HONESTLY report of a dreamer's success with these things.  It would really encourage SWIW, for all the fish in his river just are not biting lately.(red's n multi hours included)   

All in All SWIW Reports that SWIW's findings parallel with Wareami and Geez... Still no luck on SWIW's research project however the experimental phase is looking promising.

Wareami do ya think SWIW should share the info...SWIW is in no mood for arm chair flamers and as such doesn't tell me much til more concreate comparisons are done.

[gluecifer69]

This Bee can report no sucess with the 01/06 pills you are referring to. After one failure Gluecifer has luckily avoided that tainted source.  Take note in what Geezmeister says at the end of his thread


"My time in the lab has been limited for the last few months and what time I have devoted to this pursuit has been spent with orange II free sources."

Gluecifer does not currently have the time, $$$$, place, to mess with all of the OrangeII gakks as late and avoid these certain boxes and pay more for almost gakk free pills.  Gluecifer done the math and figured that a bit more road money for the pill gathers and a bit more for pills was indeed worth the diamonds that ButerrBallz and StickyFingr prepared for swim.


So far the tetra trap works on local 120's!

[geezmeister]

Weas makes a point about the orange color crystals that are left when the acetone or MEK rinses of the meth, or the mother liquor after recrystallization. These do form over time. Normally crystals that form in rinse acetone or the mother liquor from recrystallization can be rinsed with acetone or MEK to get clean crystals. In my experience with orange II gakk, this is not the case. The orange II gakk at this point is highly acetone soluble, and the meth is soluble in the solution of acetone and orange II gakk. You can chill the rinse acetone or the mother liquor and it will not make meth crystals. You can let it sit all you want and it won't make meth crystals until the solvent evaporates. Any crystals that form form in the oily orange goop as it dries out. 

The orange II gakk pre reaction is not particularly acetone soluble, at least not unless JD has been added to the mix to crack that gakk. Acetone boils or rinses do not serve to remove it at this point. Post reaction orange II is a different beast-- it seems highly soluble in acetone after the reaction-- and meth seems highly soluble in an acetone/orange II gakk solution. Perhaps what we are picking up post reaction is not the same molecule anymore. Perhaps it changes in an HI environment to another compound that not only IS acetone soluble, but also makes meth much more acetone soluble when present. Maybe its not the orange II that is in the pills, but a product created from the orange II gakk by the HI reaction--  which is  different in kind and character after the reaction than it was before. This might explain why Birch cooks do not report similar problems with orange II gakk.

Are our post-reaction gakk removal efforts skewed by our perception of the chemical's pre-reaction characteristics ? If the orange II gak is only slightly soluble in acetone prior to the reaction, but is highly soluble after the reaction, and the solution of orange II gakk and acetone readily dissolves methamphetamine, what does that tell us about this gakk?

If one were to take meth from an HI reaction that is tainted with orange II and ran it throught VideoEditor's straight to E process-- and hot filtered the meth HCl from the nonpolar solution at the 105C temperature-- we might get the meth and whatever orange II becomes in the HI reaction separated. It would be worth a try for sure. The solubilities are different post reaction, and perhaps we can precipitate the meth out in a non-polar solution since the orange II is at least partially nonpolar soluble after the reaction.

Does someone have some Orange II gakked meth they could try this approach on and tell us whether it shows promise?

[Osmium]

Why isn't anyone running the product through a chromatography column for purification? This will result in the cleanest meth ever produced outside of 'real' labs.

I have no idea what that orange stuff is, but I assume it's just some amino-functionalized PEG or other acid-soluble polymer.

[geezmeister]

Damn. I knew that chromatogaphry column I had in the closet at my old place must have been useful for something.  I guess I shouldn't have let it go for ten bucks in that garage sale after all.  

Sorry Os, you're talking to chemistry illiterate folks here. Hell, we fondle our flasks and condensers like they were religious objects. (They are, aren't they?) I suspect columns are beyond the ken of most of the cooks here, myself included.  

You have pointed me in a couple of directions to pursue, and I no doubt will display my usual flair for the inane misunderstanding trying to grasp the concept of acid-soluble polymers and/or amino- functionalized PEGs.

OS, I suspect this orange II stuff really has affected the clandestine meth cooks more than you realize. It has probably caused more cooks to close up shop in my area than anything I have seen, and I have been doing this long enough to be a veteran of two or three of the gakk wars.

[weaz1dls]

Gluecifer69 ,

 SWIW realizes he is stubborn and will give the 120's another go.  Being the brat that he is he half ass attempted a t-trap on some 120's.  2 sets. One from the same  source as the 60's and a diff brand.  What a waste of time, energy, etc...just slapped this here puored that there...to much water to much heat,
                                                      WHAT A BRAT.

  Varuca Salt in the lab!

The ultimate goal was the search for that smell at the end, so SWIW wanted it sloppy on the suspected 120, however the other 120's never got a chance (1 poack). Ruined it and chalked it up in his head they wouldn't work cause he doesn't want to mess with em.  Just as well though he needs to stop wasting precursers and coins on being lazy with these 60's.

Thanx for the nudge in the right direction, anything but back to thes red hots! Reminds swiw of the circus, how many clowns were in that car?

Geez, SWIW was wondering if the orange Ii you encounter at the end acts a bit different in the micro than without. 

 Back in 96 SWIW bitched about taking the seal,cap, cotton off a bottle to reveal 100 thini's. To mutch to deal with on the cases level.  Then he really pissed and moaned when they began fucking with the formula. Today however SWIW is a greatful bee. (takes Some Bulshit to get there but) For he carries with him tricks he learned when the hive wasn't there and only hes Merck 13 and the misleading blue fester toilet tissue were at his disposal. This Orange II acts similar to the pastic they were testing then.  This will also work with some mixes w povidone not sure it was actually povidone though.  It would grab the goods and head for the bottom of whatever solution it was in.  It would stay in an oil form almost til dooms day. Ok back to 96 and the steps to powder!  People also brought SWIW shit they would fuck up trying to streatch before the horrors of caffiene. Usually a brown gooy blob big or small they never wanted to disclose what they did to it.  SWiW would tell them if they would let him know he might be able to save more if any product.  Bullshit we all know here cause swim usually took the same steps depending on time and project.  If they were respectable ascociates then of course a/b gass streatch proper (if there is sutch a thing) or take these steps,

For clarity this will be in regaurds to the gakk II and Meth while still liquid.  This is a final evaporation on the left overs and the last titration pull, (the one that smelled like HCL)

The mix square visionware with the lid on top but turned so the four corners allow vapor to pass, butt reatain the goods when the poping bumping begins. If you already evaped slowly before transfering to the visionware then poping should be expected right off the bat.

The key is you want the glass dish to warm up pretty hot while working with it.  The acetone is room temp so it doesn't absorb moisture so quickly. Cold can be used, however in the old days it was to much of a shock.  You would watch the crystal crash and then disapear. Anyway here goes,

you will need,

1. square dish with lid, or a corning plate w something to cover it
2. room tem tone and denatured
3. hair dryer or small fan or tv guide
4. spoon
5. razors or scrapula
6. microwave (this can be done in the electic oven, remember hot surface can ignight                                                                                  solvent)
7. hot pads
yada yada


so put the liquid to dry in the dish add tone  place lid on dish adjacent to alow venting.  Depending on the water volume to remove  it will either boil  continuosly or intermitantly. Pauses in the bubling mean it will soon begin bumping if not already.  Keep it covered so the waves arn't so stong and it doesn't splater all over  you will see an increase of steaming when the acetone level begins to drop and water is still present, add more tone. Not to be mistaken with an hcl cloud from to much acid or smoke from over drying and burning.  This is an indicator to watch for when the water is gone and the acetone is almost boiled away it will begin to crackle and and thicken. Either add a small bit of denatured to it and dry it til it puffs up like an egg in the microve and then flood with tone and quickly filter or if it doesn't puff then continue. Now here is where the diferent steps come in but we are assuming this is Gaakk II and not way to mutch acid n trash.  So we have an orange crackling liquid, not dark brown fuming acid or whatever, but orange like motor oil only thick like syrrup.  SWIW will pull it out of the micro, splash a small amount of tone on it to make a portion crash out. Maybee another if the dish is still hot and the tone will boil. Pan it back n forth or use your spoon, round side down in a circular motion creating pressure and friction, moving from partial dryed mix to slightly wet mix. One of 2 things usually happens here.  Either this will turn it all to a semi dry dirt clod looking goop or it will return back to liquid.  If liquid, add almost eaual volume of tone to goop, cover and repeat till goo beqins to harden when spooned. Most often the spoon won't be needed except with really stuborn gaak.  Don't give up it may take 3-4 times.  Each time done cool air from the hairdryer or fan should be blowing lightly over the top while spooning. Remember not to much tone when crash spooning and a paning motion or mixing dry with wet is what gets yo there. Almost done. Now add a little denatured and heat in the micro til it begins to puff, quickly remove from the microvave and again splash tone in portions use panning or circles in a horizontal motion quickly now dish should still be hot tone is just about to boil off andare floating around, spoon spash any puff up areas keeping enough tone that everything is floating around in tone and tone should still be slightly boiling and the crystals did actually crash out. filter imediatley and these crystals should stay stable.  From here disolve and recrystal via dual solvent, hovever avoid the microwave for heating. The gaakk is still there and be counter productive if heated in micro afterall this trouble to get it solid.  Use hotwater bath denatured and a small amount say 1-1.5% acetone dual solvent recrysalization. Get the ratios right cause if you don't get it in the first shot then all this has to be repeated to get a solid form again. Be sure there is some candy in the mix before going to all this trouble. Also this can be bypased by letting the orangeII/meth dry slowly to form shard. When completely dry,(h20) pick up in the above steps at the disovle in denatured crach from tone.  Good luck  and GOD SWIW has got to be more direct, sorry.


Osium, Why would SWIW want to take pictures of the GAAKK?? HHMMM?















Just kidin! never done such a technical procedure or well ya what Geez said!
 

[beez_neez]

Os, swibn has access to variaous chromatography set-up's but has little experience in using them, accept for ion-exchange resins, for NaH2PO2>H3PO2. The said procedure required the column to be packed with an ion-exchange resin and the aqueous solution to bee passed through it.
With reference to what you suggest, would the column have to be packed with anything, or would you simply pass the solution through the sintered disc(porosity=0)?

[wareami]

Catching UP is Harder!
Ibee's been working on a reply to this thread for two daze and he's now 6 replys under ware he wanted to be or expected to bee since the Geez's initial "on-topic" focus switch back to this thread!
The reply will be UP shortly after it's complete, I hope.
Obviously it won't address issues relating to the last 7 or so replys to this thread, as the reply started two daze ago has already exceeded and surpassed the 6000word post limitaion...
No small wonder there...eh?
We'll bee right with ya soon!

[wareami]

Geez..Ibee's two daze late on the posting but has parts of shorty's thread addressed in detail already concerning his take on this subject. It was incomplete until ya pulled the ole switcheroo here which !
Here's the first part.

First let's say this...This chemical or compound still remains unnamed and is expected to stay the best kept identity secret the opposition has in it's arsenal of denaturants to date.
To name it is the equivalent to revealing it's weakness to some of the bees here with formal  chemistry knowledge and training!
Much like the public announcement contributions here provide the "Opposing ThumbUpDerButt Team(OTUDBT).
It's HIGHly likely they've tweeked this substance or created an active embodiment to effectively side step JapDrier/Tetra  .
If they haven't yet...they're working on it.
Keep in mind that the main goal of the OTUDBT is to stamp out illicit production of methamphetamine while still supplying OTC consumers with allergy relief.
Ibee's studies years ago in the culinary arts had touched briefly on a specific area of chemistry involving emulsifing agents, acids, bases...etc...and at the time, just the dynamics were skimmed and retained to pass exams.
Based on the observations and behaviors from working with this substance over the past few months, the fundamental areas of concern may be narrowed down to a more specific area.
Further follow-up research lately have revealed some of the same equations Ibee remembered as beeing awfully familiar.
Colloids and Interface Science

Okay now let's start back in today!*NOTE(This was yesterday! We'll return ya'll back to today in a bit

>it may be definable as polysorbate 80 for labelling purposes but vary from the compound used in candy manufacturing.

I agree with Geez's assessments concerning this substance most likely being formulated into a compound. As a stand-alone ingredient or chemical, the FDA has stringent labeling requirements that must be maintained. As a compound, a RTK submission request is required The same labeling loopholes that cover the wide range of both PEG and TWEEN 80, apparently approved by several governing agency's(all innergnashinhelly uniform and compliant) to satisfy the Consumer-Right-To-Know policy's, would account for it's unidentifiable presense.
Still reluctant to say which inactive it's categorized with because in order to have effective amounts while staying under the set limit per tablet, the loophole would allow for both PEG and OII plus TWEEN and OII to be processed into separate compounds with the OII chemical, provided they have a compatible stability when married! This would satisfy the labeling exception for OII.
 
Excuse the wordiness ....and put the tequila down...I'll try to beehave threw all this so nobody gets thrown into the deep-end , Well except for halfkast since his name suggests Ibee's casting skill is stuck at 50%
As for weaz1dls...he'll have to take a seat in the back of the ship entertaining the mermaids. Haven't read that far down yet but will.

So on we GO!
Geez will be in the green.
Halfkast is kast into the deepblueend of the reply .
*NOTE* we made it...back in today

>his is similar to my experience using JD with naptha. I used MEK rather than tone, but with multiple MEK washes I got clean pseudo and sticky, green MEK that left a pile of orangish powder when evaporated. This would likely be residue of the JD-broken orange II gakk molecule. Until the breaking with JD, there would have been no orangish powder. It would have been an oil.

Ibee's findings as well...

As halfkast inquired in the other thread...
>Ware are you sure you meant to say this? I don't understand how a substance can appear to have a crystal structure but not.

Yes! The next sentence immediately following explained the reason behind making this statement:
"Most likely, What SWIHK is seeing is the pfed structure contaminated with OII gaak!"

Okay let's consolidate....
What we have here is a filler to communicate!
This OrangeII gaak is a hybrid multi-purpose FBI (Fuk Bees Inactively) agent!
It seems to be engineered to react compatibly to the common extraction enviroments...ie...acid/base, solvents polar and non-polar, in which it finds itself at any given phase of extraction if not removed!

Let's define active and deactive states of this chem.

Actively, it's bonded to the pfed and it's characteristically similar in regards to solute selectivity. Optimally, It's designed to go visually undetected if common solvents/techniques are used to extract. Acidic conditions may expose it's presence indicated by an Orange tint(hence the name). However...it's active in solution and isolation/removal isn't likely so long as it resides with the pfed in solution. Strong Basic conditions may expose it's presence by a bluish or purple tint or darker if other unlisted gaaks are present(rootbeer). One would think that it would stay in the base layer and not migrate into NP with the pfed, but that's not the case. It seems to have a selectivity issue with certain NP solvents, liking naptha more than xylene...however it migrates and contaminates every NP Ibee has thrown at it! Haven't tried ether yet, but Ibee isn't in a hurry to be classified as a threat to the UP-AWE-NITE Nay-boreHood.
As for alcohols it's a chronic alcoholic  as well as aquatically ambidextrious in h20.
It does the backstroke all the way to chili! Just like pfed!
Deactivated state simply means that something other than common solvent/technique was introduced to change it's solute selectivity toward releasing the pfed and successfully breaking the bond to effect isolation through the use of a solvent which doesn't attract pfed.
Ibee makes this declaration solely on observing OrangeII's behavior in
1)acetone alone, which doesn't attract OII at all away from pfed.
2)Acetone that readily accepts it after it's been deactivated using tetra/jd.

Okay....so the main objective here is OII removal!
It cannot bee removed until it's deactivated.
JapDrier/Tetra Deactivate it.
Acetone removes it once deactivated.

Let's leave heat out of the equation here if we may. Ibee never uses anything but straight from the can, room temp and ya'll know his aversion and dislike toward exposing pfed to a/b processes. It's a targeted area.
 
With that said...he relates his observations based on what conditions he exposes it to.
He can't speculate or introduce other variables that others refer to without actually accessing those methods!
Alot of the discussion here seems to migrate toward those areas that Ibee couldn't verify or confirm...not to say other areas aren't successful in this chems isolation and removal.

I'll finish reading the replys and have Ibee reveal the latest tidbits based on recent experiments and observations as they pertain directly to this threads Topic.

Now bees have two common scenarios they'll hit if successful OII removal IS NOT employed on the front side extraction of the pfed...
•Contaminated Pfed
•Contaminated Meth
The degree of contamination will depend highly on what Geez expressed in regards to the solubilty (but not exclusively as certain solvent introduction seems to change it's property) The pH affects this when discussing OII and Non-Polar affinity as confirmed by Geez regarding Naoh versus sod-carb or TSP.

Geez I know I left some things unanswered but a simple regroup on Ibee's end will bring it all full circle.


All this thinking and unencrypted typing makes my head hurt....ware's my tequila??

[SHORTY]

Just trying to figure out how the government is monitoring its secret weapons effectiveness.  Do they have their own lab employing cooks they have busted or maybee they allow a certain amount of cooks to operate in exchange for information.  Did they learn about jd and tetra through their own experimentation or do they visit the hive to guide them in the right direction?  Certainly, they need to bee able to monitor their progress after all it seems to me that with the amount of funding needed to implement this secret weapon then it would need to bee justified.

[wareami]

Shame on you shorty...What's this? Revenge for all the bees Orange Gaaking your "Different Perspective" thread?

>Do they have their own lab employing cooks they have busted or maybee they allow a certain amount of cooks to operate in exchange for information.
 
Since they can pump out the best meth possible using any method, what makes you think they need bees to show them?
On the other hand...it would only take 1 hour of reading the hive for one of them to duplicate the method since they already have the chem education background.
They are what is referred to as "Skilled in the Art".
And yes...you can bet yer grandmother that they read the hive to find out what new secrets bees have stumbled on that circumvents their efforts and inhibitors.

(Geez Wrote)>You would at least know you are gakked. With the Straight to Bee and Straight to E and the Xylene Clean precip techniques, its easy to want to skip this recrystallizing step.

In all the daze Ibee's been at this "Hey...What's Under That Rock" game, he's yet to take the time to employ recrystalization for purity of pfed. It's just not what the average newbees will employ if a method provides a way around it. Not for starters anyway. After getting a feel and for refinement purposes it makes good sense and also provides better lab skills and practice. But if it's not necessary, why do it? In some cases it's absolutely necessary to include this refinement step depending on the chemicals and methods used. Ibee strives for ways that reduce steps and wait-times without sacrificing quality, quantity, or safety.

>I think that finely powdering the pill mass has more to do with the solvent's access to the pfed molecules than it does with mechanically breaking any bond the gakk has with pseudo. If the bond were one that had to broken by fine powdering, filtering alone would keep the orange II out of the extract, and it doesn't. The pseudo and orange II gakk both dissolve, and the physical encapsulation you theorize does not withstand being dissolved. Finer powdering increasees yields, but I really suspect the mechanism is not what you are theorizing.
And
>If the coating and the pseudo are both water or alcohol soluble, what difference does it make what size the pfed powder is? Soak a little longer, let the solvent dissolve them both. Or grind finer and have less solid for the solvent to soak through before it dissolves all the pseudo and orange II gakk.

I'm not so much disagreeing with you Ware, as I am debating the points you make
 
Geez....Ibee believes that selectivity is an issue here. They use this to thier advantage that gives a greater gaurantee that the process of extraction contaminates the product. We really need to understand why yields increase when using powderized GUPs in extraction as opposed to the regular grind.
{With unpulverized GUPs} Upon first contact, the solvent begins dissolving the OII until a saturation point is achieved, thus permeating the solution with OII and some pfed that was penetrated by solvent. Never has Ibee seen a batch that would bee completely dissolved in one pull. Powder or Ground.
{With pulverized GUPs } Upon first contact, the solvent attacks both OII and pfed and both compete for space.
Then this becomes a solvent selectivity issue if we want both to come over!
We don't!
The process they use puts a barrier in between bees and pfed. That barrier is OII gaak.
The act of extraction itself activates the gaak either way.
It can't be escaped. They made it that way.
Now we also have a situation that may be the case as well and seems now to be more likely scenario
It now seems that OII gaak isn't a coating at all but intermixed and intimately mingled with  one another. This makes it mandatory that all be pulverized as a first step or risk not exposing all of the OII to the subsequent steps necessary for it's complete removal!

Geez...You've made some fine observations and bring up some good points that align with Ibees which I felt deserved some further clarification. If I left anything out let me know.
 

(weaz1dls Wrote)>SWIW agrees that the tone/jd/tce works well. Until the 12/05 date is past.
and
>As for the 01/06 pills, the reason SWIW started this post, is SWIW has thrown every Leg from the Bucket and every Tool from the Shed at them.
In all Ibee's latest experiments, the ones he knows will provide a break from pioneering new wayz, he used the newest exp dates 8/06. These performed well under the slanted egull for Ibee. The ratios have stayed the same but the tone has been dropped from the frontside mixture and only uses the tone to wash the xtals in the end! 

>Wareami do ya think SWIW should share the info...SWIW is in no mood for arm chair flamers and as such doesn't tell me much til more concreate comparisons are done.
By awe means...they (the OTUDBT) have been getting the UPper leg on bees. The disclosures really don't make much of a difference, in the long run.

[Rhodium]

Just trying to figure out how the government is monitoring its secret weapons effectiveness.

Pharmaceutical  chemists with decades of experience knows exactly which types of compounds which when present makes solvent extractions next to impossible using standard methods - they have probably more than onced faced the task of having to extract the active compound from a time-release tablet or similar matrix (for example in stability studies to determine expiry dates). Almost all the so-called "gaaks" are standard tools for galenic pharmacists (those having the profession of formulating tablets, syrups, capsules etc.) trying to modify the pharmacokinetics of various preparations, although they may not have used these particular combinations before.