Author Topic: Don't get distracted:The main thing about P2P meth is that there's so much of it  (Read 3030 times)

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Offline RhinoJackson

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https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/
Found this on hackernews today and thought it was worth posting.
Any thoughts or opinions on the article?
Similar to the atlantic article atara posted.

Quote
Takeaways
What to make of all this?

First, I think it’s unlikely that l-meth is causing people to go crazy. Modern P2P meth is nearly pure d-meth, and the percentage of l-meth peaked before 2011, before these reports of schizophrenia.

Second, the evidence we have is against the idea of contaminants in P2P meth. Almost all meth was produced using P2P since 2012, before most reports of schizophrenia. And P2P meth synthesis has changed several times in the interim, resulting in higher purity than ever before.

Third, the major impact of P2P synthesis is that a lot more meth is available. We have many sources of evidence for this: Border seizures, sewage measurements, usage surveys, prices, and overdose data. All these indicate that people are using historically large amounts.

Does this rule out the idea of contaminants? No. Even if it’s 97% pure d-meth, there could be something very nasty lurking in that last 3%. But I don’t see the need for such an explanation. We know there are many more heavy users, so there’s no need to go beyond the idea that quantity has a quality all its own.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 05:42:04 AM by RhinoJackson »

Offline carl

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One word: "hotrailing" :o

ketosis posted a video after my absolute lack of getting what this is and what its supposed to do.
But it involves imbibing(can't say it else) meth under stupid conditions and actually, I have more questions than ever about this.
I am still utterly confused, but I just don't try to understand this anymore.
Its like groundhog day - american stuff nobody elsewhere understands :D
"hotrailing".... smh rn :o

As I said in the other thread, and was apparently disproven :P
Those people who are "hotrailing" and engage in other wasteful public drug using stunts(because, what else is this than hotboxing for meth users?), could be called "regular" users as in, regularly repeating use.
But not as in functional users who just try to keep on doing whatever, with responsibility, without the intent of getting as much fun out of it as possible.

I don't think there is any ceiling effect in such intentional purely recreational abuse, those people might stop when they hallucinate very strongly or whatever.
But else, they are trying to get as high as possible, thats why a probably not that small number of people ended up with that drug even.

I know its the case quite often, with the myth it being the "worst" and at the same time "strongest" drug, idiots tend to end up there, or at crack/street heroin.
Thats what being edgy causes in real life.
Cringe, bro! :D
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline thewire

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Not bad.

My notes:
-P2P meth is racemic mixture. Cartels has no skill how to make pure d-meth from p2p. Hopefully they will never have a capability to
achieve that . Not mentioned in the article if it has been attempted.
-97% ain't bad ,if they were pro that would be 99+.
- " Even if it’s 97% pure d-meth, there could be something very nasty lurking in that last 3%" Totally agree with that. I am sure this causing that mystical "go crazy" effect.

Off: I never liked  Trump  but I agree what he  planned  , to designate Mexican drug cartels as te++o+ists.

 
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 03:06:42 PM by thewire »

Offline carl

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-P2P meth is racemic mixture. Cartels has no skill how to make pure d-meth from p2p. Hopefully they will never have a capability to
achieve that . Not mentioned in the article if it has been attempted.
They have that, and they do that, for quite some time even.

Check the chiral composition of seized meth, its enantiomerically enriched, the least effort with the greatest results.
Those are huge shards, but only around 70-75% dextromethamphetamine.
Because that separation step, fractional crystallisation apparently, is done just once.
As once is enough to get the required looks.
Twice increases the workload and thus price by a huge margin, and it simply is not neccessary-

But believe me, they could make pure dextro.
They just don't need t.
Because this is apparently good enough, for the looks, and if not, then price and effect will convince any customer besides this.
They only do the bare minimum regarding chirality.
And if they can do that, then there are also people who could take this one step further(or 2-3 actually :P), the knowledge is obviously there.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 03:26:58 PM by carl »
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline java

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"Cartels has no skill how to make pure d-meth from p2p"......they've known how to do that for at least 15 years...and later,..... since they wanted  to maximise the profit , they just mixed 60 % d-meth and the rest L-meth to get those shards that all the users wanted.........java
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Offline RhinoJackson

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There are plenty of "normal" people that do meth and every other drug.  We only hear about the crazy stories that get shoved in our face via the news. I totally get that.

There is a larger cultural/social reason that creates addicts.
Without fixing that we are only going to hear more crazy stories as availability and potency of drugs increase.

I feel like money=happines, buy more stuff=happines, corporate/government intrests shoved in our face affecting how we percieve and live meaningful lives.
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Offline Flashtrax

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not an expert but last time I take a few gr of this so called "mexican meth" and after even a week I have terrible side effects and sad behaviour ... I mean even after years and years of AMP abuse I never heard conversations of people on my loudspeakers!!!
I think if american people had the choice they certainly take AMP rather than this over buzzing meth even if at the beginning of the day you think you have find your road or have a second life offering to you.. Im also suspicious about the effects that this productions give to human bodys when experiment after even a few dayzzz!!!

and it terms of stimulation AMP is already more than enough to make the job done... just to be said
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Offline DerAlteSack

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The discussion WHAT in the meth is causing people going nuts is fruitless as in the end the drug has not changed so much since the times of biker speed (razemic meth). There was always a small percentage who could not handle it (mostly with underlying latent psychosis) and the went pop and the drug was blamed. Wrongly in my opinion.

True is that use has become more widespread not at last following the old PR wisdom: There is no such thing like bad publicity, every grave warning gets 10 times more people interested then it deters.

All this comes into play but there is something else: Meth is as we know a very strong drug and combinations with other drugs often have typical negative effects, like Meth + pot (lots of it and dtrong) = open paranoia, loss of contact with reality and mental capacity. Meth + Opiates in special Heroin but substitutes like codein or methadon are far worse (polish soup IS the worst) = open paranoia of a special evil and erasive kind and a touch of meanness. Meth + Benzos = total assholification, narcissm paranoia unrelieability.
Thats those I have encountered more often and which have a clear pattern. It is understood this happens not when combining the drugs once but after some time of permanent use.

Therefor I offer a wager and bet that in at least 92% of the new cases of insanity not only meth is consumed often but the meth is usually combined with something else and without this combo not much would happen. What is combined whats bad? In short, strong upper + medium/strong downer = shit happens. At the moment there is a high availability of highly cut meth (sorry Java I don't buy that there is much pure stuff coming from Mexico, N-Iso is the main ingredient of the concoction, obviously , the stuff even looks 100% N-ISO, better, consumers today believe that good meth must look like this. Same as now certain looks in Coke are told to be a sign of highest quality coke whilst in truth being a sign of a good amount of horse-dewormer which by adding some duration to the cokes short effects is probably a real improvement, same as the 50% amphetamine in the coke sold in Berlin was an improvement and consumers did not accept pure coke anymore calling it impure and substandard.
Anyways  I bet virtually all those going nuts have consumed other strong and long acting drugs, say downers and mostly RC benzos like Etilozam and there is the reason for what is happening.


And so it is still true what was told to me when I smoked my first joint at the end of the 70s:
Never ever mix downers and uppers, everybody who does so ends up in the psychiatric hospital, some sooner some later, but in the end all without exception.


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Offline Flashtrax

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 :) :)I agree, because unfortunately I think that if the wheel were to really turn, then it would only be for hamsters
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Offline NeonCortex

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Surely there must be some credible analyses out there?
Scientific articles accessible to everyone - as they should be!
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Offline jacolives

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There are!  The DEA regularly reports on this type of things.  You’ll notice they refer often to “purity” AND “potency”.  Purity has been in the high 90s for years, “potency” has moved around a bit but I think the most recent report I read had it well over 60 - 70 maybe on the 80s.  This is based on seized samples of course, due to the fact that they regularly seize even very LARGE samples - in the hundreds of kilos, these are probably very accurate numbers.  There is of course always the chance that if your meth is further from the border, that it is less pure for various reasons but I say only the chance.  Most likely it is in the same condition as it was when it was first smuggled across the border, or first taken out of solution very near where you live and are enjoying (or not) their fine product.
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Offline arkoma

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The "hot-railers" tell themselves that they are still only "snorting lines" essentially. Nevermind that they might instantaneously vaporize a .25 tp .5 gm dose at once......
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Offline jacolives

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The "hot-railers" tell themselves that they are still only "snorting lines" essentially. Nevermind that they might instantaneously vaporize a .25 tp .5 gm dose at once......

What do you think about the claim by many hot rail users that the vaporized methamphetamine actually also enters the blood through the nose and not just through the lungs ?  People have been saying these for years but I’m not sure it is true.
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Online timescale7017

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The article was a good read, nice thorough analysis.

"Even if it’s 97% pure d-meth, there could be something very nasty lurking in that last 3%"

Well, that's average. So it's entirely possible that the majority is 99+% methamphetamine but there is a small fraction on the market with significant impurities.

If it is an impurity it's certainly not mercury or lead, as those are chronic toxins and the reported effects seem acute.
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Offline jacolives

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Well there is a very high impetus towards having the cleanest purest product.  The majority of meth in the USA is smoked.  Anyone that has smoked meth knows all it takes one speck of dust or some other random thing to make your dope turn brown, burn and that is the point that it goes from tasting like nothing to tasting awful and gagging you as you try to inhale.  There are so many different people manufacturing, smuggling and selling the stuff that nobody is going to buy fucked up product.  Let’s say you buy 10 lbs from some dude, and there is a funny taste, or some other problem with it - just call him up he will replace it.  Sometimes he might just give you 10 more and then not even ask for the other back .  This is no big deal, happens sometimes.  The price on Mexico of the stuff is so absurdly cheap most wouldn’t believe it if I posted it here!
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Offline d00d

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Not that we have meth on our planet but; Ich don't think so.  Just no.  P2P meth? No.

Your a cartel lord; WHY WOULD YOU WORK UP TO P2P? Please tell us why. Why when you can call your sino-soviet cartels and get the proper enantiomer foodthings by the drum, by the drum, by the drum.

Hell they avoid P2P like the plague. Logic time, not to be a dick.  But its time to think logically.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 02:22:34 AM by d00d »
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Offline jacolives

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I’m not a cartel lord, but it’s just simple economics.  Cost of production vs. the local (in Mexico) cost to sell the finished product.  Also there is the law to consider.  The vast majority of precursor related chemicals are not illegal to ship out of China (though this is subject to change of course), and many are not illegal to ship into Mexico.

Take this for a grain of salt of course, I’m just some guy on the Internet!

Of course there is also the massive amount of forensic evidence that shows the VAST majority of seized meth in the United States (far from me in The North Pole, but I have the Internet) which is by a huge margin the number one destination for jale / hielo / metanfetamina is produced from phenylacetone AND is fairly enantiopure.
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Offline arkoma

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possession of pseudoephedrine in mexico carries a term of 1-3 years....................
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Offline jacolives

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possession of pseudoephedrine in mexico carries a term of 1-3 years....................

Was of course referring to P2P related chemicals.
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Offline carl

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Your a cartel lord; WHY WOULD YOU WORK UP TO P2P? Please tell us why. Why when you can call your sino-soviet cartels and get the proper enantiomer foodthings by the drum, by the drum, by the drum.

Hell they avoid P2P like the plague. Logic time, not to be a dick.  But its time to think logically.
lol no.
The shipments of P2P precursors are much larger to mexico than the shipment of ephedrine related things nowadays.
Thats a fact, you can look up how much they seize of each(but it might take time, they use like a dozen of different precursors for P2P....).

Fuck d00d, you can even turn P2P chiral easily.
The yield might be low, but its chiral.
Racemization exists.
AIBN is on a watched list now because of this.
They fucking even reuse the levo, this obviously means!

Come on, this is not rocket chemistry.
They have capable chemists too nowadays.
Its much more lucrative and your family even receives protection/or alternatively threats if you don't want, etc.
Or somewhere in between, those are not barbarians either.
I would do it, living there.
Even if I would not use drugs.
Easy decision.

I wouldn't be surprised if they have a few luminaries among them who would even look down on most of us.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline arkoma

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possession of pseudoephedrine in mexico carries a term of 1-3 years....................

Was of course referring to P2P related chemicals.

I realize that; most folks though don't realize that ONE 30mg red hot can carry that penalty.  The US dept of State or Customs one, I forget even has warnings about OTC cold remedies can land you in prison in Mexico.

Quote
Come on, this is not rocket chemistry.
They have capable chemists too nowadays.
Its much more lucrative and your family even receives protection/or alternatively threats if you don't want, etc.
Or somewhere in between, those are not barbarians either.
I would do it, living there.
Even if I would not use drugs.
Easy decision.

Absolutely, and certainly not barbarians. I've spent a fair amount of time in fairly small city Mexico. 10, 15000 people maybe? They're just as kind, sweet and generous as any people on earth once you transcend politics.  The drug market in the United States is probably the size of the rest of the worlds put together.  When people have hungry children, by damn, they figure out how to feed them FIRST, and the law, especially of a foreign country is of little concern.

ERGO

.Makes absolute sense for El Mencho to manufacture from "phenylacetal" feedstocks as they are just too ubiquitous and The Mexican Government can partially get the US three letter agencies off their back by being harsh on ephedrine precursors. It really amazes me at times why Mexico hasn't told us to just fuck off, as we aren't really very good neighbors. (The United States}


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US members, register, VOTE help end the OBSCENITY of the "War On Drugs", and ex-felons can vote in 48 states without a hassle, so dammit, get yourselves heard.
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Offline jacolives

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The warmest, most generous, easiest to smile people
I’ve met on the planet.

El Mencho on the other hand? Well it’s not for me to judge, I’ve made my own mistakes in life.  But… to provide for your family and community is one thing.  But when you spill the blood of so many on the streets in the name of greed.  I do not support the USA in doing this either, it just looks different and is done slowly through the oppression of the ruling class.  There are three poisons that are the root all this suffering: greed, hatred and delusion. The antidotes are simple: Generosity, Love, and Wisdom.
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Offline carl

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Leche frita.

Eh you mexican visitors, tell me what was the age of consent there again? ;)
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Online tolkien187

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Fuck d00d, you can even turn P2P chiral easily.
The yield might be low, but its chiral.
Racemization exists.
AIBN is on a watched list now because of this.
They fucking even reuse the levo, this obviously means!

Interesting. Do you think they do it on already chirally resolved l-enantiomer, or racemic mixture?

Offline carl

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They use it on the resolved l-meth, and those who use it, use it on pure l-meth, because those have a high degree of sophistication.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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Offline jacolives

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They use it on the resolved l-meth, and those who use it, use it on pure l-meth, because those have a high degree of sophistication.

Could you provide a reference for this ?  I am not having much luck searching.

-edit- never mind I found it
« Last Edit: December 21, 2021, 08:57:20 PM by jacolives »
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Offline arkoma

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Offline Hulagu

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Not that we have meth on our planet but; Ich don't think so.  Just no.  P2P meth? No.

Your a cartel lord; WHY WOULD YOU WORK UP TO P2P? Please tell us why. Why when you can call your sino-soviet cartels and get the proper enantiomer foodthings by the drum, by the drum, by the drum.

Hell they avoid P2P like the plague. Logic time, not to be a dick.  But its time to think logically.

Methinks this fellow is speaking from his behind  ::). According to the DEA's own literature, over 99% of seized samples in the US have impurity markers identifying a P2P synthesis route, and of those, the isomeric purity is nearly 98%. This information is published yearly as part of their 'Methamphetamine Profiling Program'.

Offline DerAlteSack

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DEA always speaks the truth? Na, not really....
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2021, 05:16:14 AM »
Comrade d00d seems to have partaken in some deliriants before posting, he may be excused, but one might not forget that DEA publications are primarily a means of politics and not of science.

All this has not very much to do with meth or P2P or anything like this, it is just easy to blame meth for much more fundamental shortcomings. But it is not my country not my problem, not that I could do anything about it.
Good luck.

PS: I just read some testing results from Canada and there they find a lot of ISO in the meth. Same in NY. Maybe they should outsource the testing to the DEA for more consistent results?
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Offline jacolives

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Re: DEA always speaks the truth? Na, not really....
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2021, 05:41:12 AM »
Comrade d00d seems to have partaken in some deliriants before posting, he may be excused, but one might not forget that DEA publications are primarily a means of politics and not of science.

All this has not very much to do with meth or P2P or anything like this, it is just easy to blame meth for much more fundamental shortcomings. But it is not my country not my problem, not that I could do anything about it.
Good luck.

PS: I just read some testing results from Canada and there they find a lot of ISO in the meth. Same in NY. Maybe they should outsource the testing to the DEA for more consistent results?

I suspect this has more to do with the peculiarities of the meth market in New York.  Despite being a major population and drug center, methamphetamine has really only arrived in New York in the last couple of years. I suspect this is a simple case of local distributors trying to increase profits by diluting what they sell.  Once the area is properly flooded with already cheap very pure meth, the consequences of a free market will put these types of people largely out of business.  Canada is a similar story, by consequence of there being a second border to cross… methamphetamine on the street level is likely much more expensive than it is in ALL of the United States, and there is significantly less of it. The price for going across an international border isn’t the same for each border necessarily either. Let’s say one unit of meth costs 25 Kerplizzles (25 K) in Mexico.  Well the price might double to 50 K per unit just for crossing the border.  Then it is moved to a northern state and all of the sudden the wholesale price is 100 K.  So it arrives in Canada.  Does the price go up only to 125 K?  No it might go up to 150 K or maybe 200 even.  200 Kerplizzles for one measly unit of methamphetamine that cost only 25 Kerplizzles in Mexico last Tuesday!  This is assuming wholesaling… what the end user pays is a different story.
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Offline aes256

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I have a post in the Law section that summarises some interesting points from the UNODC's annual report on drug and precursor seizures for various countries around the world. I think it paints a pretty representative picture of what the synthesis trends are for meth (and numerous other illicit drugs) if you're across all the ways in which it can be made.

It's where I first learnt of "AIBN" being used for racemization but I haven't seen this compound or the process it's used for mentioned anywhere in the underground literature we'd be likely to come across. Everyone still on that tartaric trip :shrug_emoji:
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Offline carl

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Canada has its own domestic production of meth.
Due to the reasons you gave above, it is still valuable to do domestical and canada is sort of a precursor paradise compared to the states, lets not forget that.
Large scale of course.
I would suggest that you guys share information like it was the last day on Earth.  This information slowdown is all because of all that dumb unwillingness to share.  That is where the DEA is winning.  There goal is you not talking to each other.  Let the information flow.  I  promise we will always be 2 steps ahead of DEA chemists if we just keep sharing information
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