Super High Potentcy Push/Pull dope

[Red_Crown]

I mean, the thermodynamically favored product is still the reduced one. The reaction is always exothermic.. Applying external heat only effects the rate -- which is a kinetic consideration.

~If you live in a warm enough area, it could work in a week, vs.  400,000 years @ the north pole. But it would still convert.~

[Jacked]

The same idea should bake a cake correct? I wouldn't want to eat that cake after it sat in the trunk of an old car for two weeks baking.
 I didn't just guess at this, A little embarrassed I didn't post up the step by step rxn that lead to a pile of unreacted gear. I figured the others following this thread would step up and declare there findings but as you see hardly anyone did. This left me even more embarrassed that I might have been one of the only ones who tried this method.....Bottom line is with RP and I2 being the body of the reaction heat is as necessary as the I2 it self. 
 Reflux is the key and you cant reflux without a heat source of some type applied, even at reflux temps it takes 48 hours, 2 days. That's 4 tweaker days mind ya.
 In the push pull the second phase of the reaction is were the reduction is carried out and it does not come about less than 190 degrees. 

 An still I wonder if you could raceamize pseudo just by letting it sit in HCl for a week or two?

 This bee ain't wondering or speculating on thermodynamic reactions, and did very little math during this whole project.  This bee is simply stating what he has seen with his own two eyes.

Buckshot I hope your experience turns out much better than mine, there is always hope and that's all I have to back you with. good luck

[CharlieBigpotato]

perhaps with lots of insulation, the exothermia wouldn't bee lost almost immediately. glass offers almost no resistance to the heat flow.
 
a good candidate for a sealed rxn, perhaps; with minimal surface area. conventional refluxing is not essential for sucessfull reduction.
not sure about the temp.

i hope we get a report back on this.
(yes, there is danger in a sealed rxn; use with care and knowledge)

[Buckshot]

Jacked, thank you for the more detailed explanation of why you don't think a cold rxn can work. Could you please tell us details of you're test experiment? More specificly how long did you let the rxn flask sit for? Did you only let the rxn flask sit for 4 days as Dwarfer suggests in this thread? Furthermore, very important information would be to know if the flask had that sweet smell when opened? Finally, did you use a membrane or a push pull system? I believe for this type of rxn the push/pull system may not be as effective as a membrane or sealed rxn.

My rxn flask is still sitting....If its gonna work it should be done by now.

I haven't had a chance to look at the rxn flask, but I can say for sure, that in the past I put a flask on the heat for an hour or two, and then let the flask sit for a week with no additional heat, and that method worked great.

And Ibee, I know you are skilled, but honestly have you even tried this or are you just speculating? Becuase you don't give any details whatsoever. You did however make a comment about wishing for the sun to change colours, which had no scientific value related to the topic. Kinda like that comparison of baking a cake without heat, which is also a statement which doesn't apply to the topic. (I wouldn't eat a cake that's cooked WITH heat for 48hrs)no offense Jacked, Im just trying to get this straight.

[CharlieBigpotato]

the 'smell' is so easily overwhelmed by other smells.

christ, if someone opens a flask, post rxn, and smells HI, it doesn't mean it didn't reduce.  yet, it sure won't smell sweet!

[barkingburro]

swibb seems to remember somewhere that thre was once a method of making 'god speed' that was set off by the mere flash of a lightning strike. this being the case here are a couple of ideas that have come to mind that may be the methods in which this slow no heat reaction may occur. over time from start to finish we have rp+i2+h2o+pfed=>2HI+h2o+pfed=>i2+h3po3+meth+h2o=>i2+h3po4+meth+h2o now the initial rxn is from the combination of i2 and rp, plus a lil ultra violet to start the i2 decay. this initial reaction creats a significant amount of energy in the form of heat. eventually this heat is going to dissipate however and more energy is going to be needed. the UV reaction with iodine may be one source of this energy, even the slow decay of the iodine during the recycling may be enough to keep a subdued reaction going. on top of that the mixture of h3po3 and i2 and h2o is an endothermic reaction, so it is storing energy in some manner, what manner that is swibb is unsure of, but it is definately happening, swibbs felt the flask too many times after combining the 3 to be told otherwise. now, h3po3 and i2 don't become HI, so fas as known, until 87C. BUT since this IS a closed/sealed reaction, pressure equates heat, potentially, though swibb's not so sure that there's enough pressure there. just a few potential ideas.... perhaps the push and pull mechanism is providing enough pressure and kinetic energy that it is being converted?

[12cheman12]

Well i think everyone agress on that the rxn must reach some minimum temp for the process to start happening, so i think we have to just work out what this ideal temp is, if HI is produced at 87C then wouldnt it be perfect to keep the RXN at 87C, no higher and no less? just my thoughts

[placebo]

I agree with Jacked, (hey buddy, long time no see) SWIM attempted this as well and did write it up above somewhere. I won't say it's impossible to work but SWIM and others say it hasn't.
However I disagree with your comment about 2 days being 4 to a tweaker. I would say it is more like 2 weeks and 1 week more like a month of waiting in tweaker terms.

In my opinoin there is definately a minimum heat requirement, what it is doesn't matter, reflux is fine and not worth the time required in testing to find out.

[Red_Crown]

Just thought I'd work this out publicly.. T'might stimulate:
(^=delta)

A quick and loose estimation of the bond enthalpies (^H_formation, in kcal/mol):
1) pseudoephedrine ~= 2796  
2) iodoephedrine   ~= 2641
3) methamphetamine ~= 2700


*albiet barely; within error margin

Hypothetical partial reactions: (^G = ^H - T^S)
Rxn.A   1 -> 2  = -155 (exothermic)
pseudoephedrine + HI_(aq) -> iodoephedrine + H₂O

I believe the ^S above is 0, no?


Rxn.B   2 -> 3  = +59  (endothermic) 
iodoephedrine + H₂O  ->  methamphetamine + I^- + OH^-

And above ^S is positive. Correct?


..If so, then rxnA is both spontaneous (negative ^G) and exothermic and would occur even at very low temperatures.
And rxnB may be spontaneous depending on the precise change in entropy (and more accurate enthalpy data) and Temp.

Wouldn't it be possible to find the mechanism by creating a number of hypothetical mechs and measuring they're rate thermodynamics?   No researcher has done this for the RPI reaction?

[Jacked]

I think it was more like 7 days, The container was a 2000 ml RBF with a single 24/40 neck. It contained around 40gs of E with a ratio of around 1.2 I 1 E and .4 twice ran RP with approximately 8ml of H2O, added, after a brief exothermic reaction took place and it rolled over into the black liquid with bubbling subsided the cap was placed on it and taped down, It sat in the trunk of and old car just like was suggested and a week later when opened it did have the P2P smell (sweet) that you are referring too. This smell does not mean the reaction was a success, as I learned watching SWIM processing this batch. The results have been stated above. I'm not sure if some of the E was reduced but the majority was pinwheel in fashion and when burned had a sweet pseudo smell and taste. The shit was collected and reran under normal conditions with no problems.

 

You did however make a comment about
wishing for the sun to change colors, which had no scientific value related to the topic.

 That was a comparison, you should start reading things a little closer like the fact of running this reaction before you even finished the thread.
 I was informed of this through PM a week before it was posted and was asked to give it a try. It was my mistake for not posting more detail.

  but honestly have you even tried this or are you just speculating?

 Again go back and read again, the statement was make that I "was not" speculating about this. As a mater of fact I don't post speculation because I am just a chem hack and don't posses the ability to balance a reaction on paper much less talk about before it happens..
 

Kinda like that comparison of baking a cake without heat, which is also a statement which doesn't apply to the topic.

Why the reference is to cooking something in laymen terms, (comparing to something easer to understand) us simple minded guys understood that (Smile).
 It's been three days sense your post, do you have anything to say about your experience with this?
 The statement about getting stressed over this is what gets me.. You should have known there was a question with this method and sense there is very little success reported then why experiment unless you could afford the loss. Nothing to stress over if that were the case.
No offense taken, I still wish you the best of luck.
 ____________________________________________

 BB you said

swibb seems to remember somewhere that thre was once a method of making 'god speed' that was set off by the mere flash of a lightning strike. this being the case here

 Will stop right here, God speed actually "lighting speed, the method of the gods" is a fiction man, it was wrote to parallel the facts of the reaction, Which in case it did just that. I should know, I'm the one who wrote the story..
 I'm glad you have read it, a lot of people around have not and referencing to it is rair indeed....

 Maybe there is a low heat in which would work that would produce fewer impurities as what this method was about. Right now the long reflux at the 48hour mark is your best bet for fewer side products and higher % of conversion to the target molecule.. Remember this is an experiment and posting on the like should be after you have compiled the results of your experiment, especially if a couple elder bees have made statements to the contrary of its sucess.....

[abominator]

Will stop right here, God speed actually "lighting speed, the method of the gods" is a fiction man, it was wrote to parallel the facts of the reaction, Which in case it did just that.

Goddamned glad to finally know that Jacked.  Swim read that story on Worlocks site long ago when it first appeared and was always quite skeptical.  Thanks for putting in the final word.

Here is swim's experience with the closest thing he can call a "cold" rxn.

Swim had a buddy whom whilst after 2hrs. into the rxn the po-po came to his door with an arrest warrant and he went quietly, but all power to the rxn off.

It was placed outside in the sun during the day and beside a baseboard heater at night.   This was done for a total of three weeks.(it was middle of summer)  BTW, swim was not the one with the rxn flask, it was the brother of the guy who got took to jail.

Anyway after the fellow got out of jail, the shit was worked up.  Several NP washes were needed to get rid of the red color.  There was about a 70% return by weight which led swim to believe much of that weight was undreduced pfed.

The bioassay of the product resembled the street dope going around at that time, a bit better actually.  It was still not anywhere near if the fella had done a push/pull, much less a reflux.

To sum it all up, in swim's experience one will get a return from this method, but it is one of with much unreduced pfed and indeed a waste of precursors./Gluecifer69

[Buckshot]

[ChemoSabe]

[barkingburro]

[Buckshot]

[Rhodium]

..If so, then rxnA is both spontaneous (negative ^G) and exothermic and would occur even at very low temperatures.
And rxnB may be spontaneous depending on the precise change in entropy (and more accurate enthalpy data) and Temp.

Just because a reaction is thermodynamically favored does not mean it is spontaneous.

The reaction 2 H₂ + O₂ -> 2 H₂O is certainly thermodynamically favored, but you can still store a 2:1 mixture of oxygen and hydrogen in a container for years at room temp without any water forming - you need to heat the mixture to get things going.

This is due to something called activation energy and corresponds to how much energy you need to make the reactants overcome the thermodynamically disfavored transition states inherent in virtually any reaction.


Example taken from

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Activation%20energy

Fig 1. The enthalpy profile of a reaction between two hydrogen peroxide molecules to form water and oxygen.
The Transition State is the point at which the original bonds have been stretched as far as they can without breaking (this is illustrated by the structural diagram below the graph.) The energy required to reach the transition state is equal to the activation energy of the reaction.

[CharlieBigpotato]

now there's something that sure seems counter to semi-scientific reasoning. very cool.

still, one has trouble picturing a means of getting that 2:1 mix in the jar in the first place. or letting it out.
i can imagine that the energy to tear the O2 apart exceeds that which is required for the water to form, but can't picture how they could bee put in the containor in that ratio simultaneously.

ever seen it done?
such a peculiar way to store H2!

[Rhodium]

still, one has trouble picturing a means of getting that 2:1 mix in the jar in the first place. or letting it out.

Fill two balloons with hydrogen and one with oxygen, then empty all of them into an empty plastic bag through a one-way valve  

i can imagine that the energy to tear the O2 apart exceeds that which is required for the water to form,

No, that is not the issue. For water to form, both O₂ and H₂ molecules needs to break apart to form free atoms before they can re-combine to form water. At room temperature, the molecules always have too little energy to break apart, as when they bump into each other they merely bounce apart. If the temperature is raised (for example by applying a burning match to the plastic bag containing the gas mixture) some of the molecules will gain enough kinetic energy (speed) to be able to break apart when crashing into other molecules, and the reaction between the atoms can proceed.

The reaction between oxygen and hydrogen is a special case, as enough energy is released when water is formed to push further O₂/H₂ molecules over the activation energy treshold so that they in turn can react to produce water, and even more energy is released - the reaction rate will accelerate explosively until all the molecules has reacted.

In most exothermic reactions suitable for laboratory use, the amount of heat released when the product is formed is not as large as to initiate such a chain reaction - at least the energy release is small enough for a reflux condenser to neutralize it - hence you will usually need to continue heating the reaction mixture until everything has reacted, as opposed to the O₂/H₂ example above, when a simple initiation is needed.

but can't picture how they could bee put in the containor in that ratio simultaneously.

ever seen it done?

Sure - at chem class demonstrations... But there is no need to introduce the gases simultaneously, as it makes no difference if you do it with one at a time.

[CharlieBigpotato]

if this combination of hydrogen and oxygen can bee stored together regardless of the ratio they are introduced to each other, initially; that is, at some point they could bee in the ideal ratios for water formation; yet they don't react:

does this mean that the explosions i've seen were only beecause of the pre-heated state of the H2 when it met up with the O2?
this probably isn't the right thread to attempt to understand this. but with luck, perhaps one more from rhodium on this subject.

[Rhodium]

does this mean that the explosions i've seen were only beecause of the pre-heated state of the H2 when it met up with the O2?

Huh??

Somehow the needed energy was aquired, such as through strong compression, a lit match etc. The Hindenburg airship met its fate due to static electricity.

But to make the argument even simpler, here is a similar example:

Beeswax is combustible, but you cannot ignite it with a match. If you make a candle out of the beeswax and ignite its wick, it slowly heats and evaporates the wax (transferring energy to it), and this can then combust in the air (the wax is oxidized to gaseous carbon dioxide and water vapor by the oxygen in the air).