Author Topic: pill fuckers at it again  (Read 7898 times)

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UncleFester

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may they rest in peace...
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2004, 12:30:00 AM »
It seems that the final bell has sounded for those gas station ephedrine pills, but they didn't have much wax or gum in them, just this funny pus package that primed itself with a solvent presoak and then went off with exposure to NaOH. The extraction yield was nothing to brag about...roughly 50% of theoretical...making the NaOH in isopropyl is easy, just pour some red devil into the bottle and let sit for a while with some shaking to get it into solution, them put a bit more red devil in the powdered pill mass. Sudo pills need the solvent pre-soak because they are so damn gummy, but I don't think they are incorporating the pus bag formulation...yet.

SHORTY

  • Guest
adroit_synth,
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2004, 03:49:00 AM »
Have you tried the tetra trap?


spectralshift

  • Guest
Deer AuntyJak,
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2004, 10:08:00 AM »
the blobs of white jelly are a type of cellulose, it's not terribly important which of the 2 or 3 types it is.

A long soak in acetone should take care of it, it takes a long time to dissolve.
It seems to work fully and completly, old man geez who lives in the gray house by the disused bridge taught me this.


Fester! Do you think the base and alc did much better the base + water would have?
I bet orange wouldnt like alc as much to spawn itself in. what do you think?

Well done fest you fucked them up.

ragnaroekk

  • Guest
Ferric Chloride method
« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2004, 07:56:00 PM »
by oilman:

Post 126328 (missing)

(oilman: "Re: "The Cure" for all Oz pseudoephedrine pills", Newbee Forum)


This sounds rather complicated, but it isnt. The "flokking" step is the one of interest here and it can be added to any other common method with ease - I would suggest to start with TETRA - dry TETRA (perchlorethylene) and then do the ferric chloride flokkulation. This is from the way it works very similar to Japan Drier and should work with all salts/oxides or even the plain iron so finely divided. (other metals should work also, but iron for being known very effective in polymerisations may be first of choice)

How it works:
Polymerisation.
Iron is a polymerisation catalyst, it induces the polymeres to form longer chains and so to become filterable or change properties in another way - to become removeable as the properties of polymeres are strongly determined by the molecular weight of the single polymeric chains.
So oilmans wording was wrong, it is no breaking of the gakk but a clustering. The method is genious so.

RagNArOEkK


spectralshift

  • Guest
Rag, interesting, and would it affect polymers
« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2004, 08:44:00 PM »
Rag, interesting, and would it affect polymers universally, or just certain varieties? and do you know anything about the effect it would have on certain varieties, and if the effect is negative to yield or separation?

Why didn't you mention it monthes ago?

SmelliumII

  • Guest
PULEEZ
« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2004, 08:56:00 PM »
Please bear in mind that UF is talking about Ephedrine pills that are being sold at the local gas station near that Harley Davidson Factory down there in the deep south.

With that as a given, this method is being taught as a fix for THEM.  It may work on the Ephedrine pills at YOUR local gas station, but SWISII advises to test on 1 bottle before stuffing 25 bottles in the blender at once.

The one thing we do know is this:  No matter what works today, or what worked 6 months ago will not necessarily have an impact tomorrow. 

Don't be fooled by snake oil salesmen who merely use a gimmick to further the sales of their tonic.  Teaching a fix as universal is an insult to the many bees who have worked endless hours on formulas, and who will be the first to report to you any changes you're likely to encounter.  I'm certain that this wasn't UFs intent, and felt it important to clear up that issue.

spectralshift

  • Guest
misunderstanding
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2004, 01:57:00 AM »
Of course not, I don't follow any method. I certainly don't rush out to get packets of pills to test methods.

I just wanted to give fester some props because he's pparently out of form, and broke through. Using OH and base is just one trick I'd use in a clean, depending on what Fester says. But I have many.  :)

Take this as another, that isn't documented but works nicely, to your preferred building society. This is a superb, powerful, evironmentally-friendly solvent economical, pfed.sulf/pfed.hcl friendly intitial multi-step wash to dry GUP (or whole pills):

1. Cover in 3-5 volumes of DCM (it don't matter-your getting it all back)

2. Chuck the dirty DCM in the freezer or frige for as long as you an wait.

3. Wash the cold DCM with tap water to extract any dyes and much else. The water will sit on top of the DCM.

3. Repeat x as many as you like.

boiling DCM has a tendency to clog filters, because it doesnt have far to cool down and waxes/glues/shit precipitate out easily.

I think of DCM like acetone, except it won't dissolve pfed as much if at all.

I suspect it may bee safer to the yields of pfed and to one's sanity to do the washes with the GUP inside the filter paper and then dipped in the boiling DCM. Something like a tea-bag. Sort of like in that tyvek wash, except for gaks and dyes.

The way I gave instructions for will of course get more gak per shot, but inside a filter paper for the washes the potential loss of pfed is near nothing.

I say this because with chlorinated solvents one is never quite certain if the pfed is floating or stuck to the bottom because of gaks not yet removed.

geezmeister

  • Guest
OH and base
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2004, 02:29:00 AM »

Using OH and base is just one trick I'd use in a clean, depending on what Fester says. But I have many.




I've done some posts of my results doing just that. Cthulhujr took the STB and used dried alcohol to mobilize the base. I had used dried acetone. Both in fact do work to mobilize the base without water. The waterless approach to basing also helps keep PEG at bay in the STB; nothing beats preextraction boils in naptha, IMHO. Take the PEG out, use Na2CO3 to base, mobilize the base with a 50/50 mix of dry ISO and dry Acetone, and you may find as I did that you bring fewer polymers with the pseudo.

I also have the thought that the tendency of the tetra trap method to bring the PEG with the pseudo may be related to the use of the water to mobilize the base. I have not had an opportunity to do a modified tetra trap, trading dry ISO and/or a mix of dry ISO and acetone to mobilize the base. Add the alky/tone mix, then the naptha or tolly, add more alky/tone after decanting the first pull, stir, then add more solvent to extract. I haven't tried it yet. With the generic 120's I obtain, this may be needed to limit how much PEG gets pulled; it may still be necessary to take the PEG out with a couple of naptha boils.

Sorry, my comments ran long. I did want to suggest you review some of my earlier efforts at mobilizing the base with acetone or a mix of alcohol and acetone, as the information may be of use to you.




spectralshift

  • Guest
Geez, thanks for all that!
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2004, 04:21:00 AM »
Geez, thanks for all that!

The question I've always had with the Waterless A/B was the 30-40% yield loss-where does it all go? What do you put it down to, the novel basing process or the fact that waxes and gak is coating the pfed.hcl?

I think it's glues in part atleast...swim has seen a thinish fudgish white sticky gak not let go of ANY dye visibally, to a solvent the dye is freely soluble in, even with good stirring!

With the tetra trap, and PEG following through I agree the water is the problem, and maybee toluene holding on to some water.
It's easy to use too much H2O aswell. You'd think that the H2O was full of enough gak, aswell as the tetra to not drift away with the NP, but I don't think it's a given...

Heating the water is always going to cause a cellulose problem aswell. That's why for that problem, a long acetone soak, a boil incorporated in to this soak to assist dissolution, to let the tone marry with as much of the stuff it can dissolve as possible.

With the tetra trap, for swim personally, he'd remove as much as he could with TCE, then use tetra as the actual NP as it would hold no water at all.
Even better, as a second NP, with toluene, xylene or naptha if you like on top. As an Orange escaping measure...

Then the NP's (both...at the same time) need to bee washed with water. To remove orange oil.

Because even if orange is slightly soluble in NP as you said once, water washes will still remove it.

To add water to the tetra trap he may add the water with a sprayer.

Or the alcohol, or alcohol + tone, we'll find out in the new year i guess?  :)

I can carry on worse.  :P  ;)

SHORTY

  • Guest
Good Idea!
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2004, 09:09:00 AM »
To add water to the tetra trap he may add the water with a sprayer.

Or the alcohol, or alcohol + tone, we'll find out in the new year i guess?


I have been thinking about doing this as well in order to more evenly distribute it.  Look forward to your comments on it and i will post mine if i try it first. :)


spectralshift

  • Guest
Thanks Short! Deal. ;-) I'm not sure what...
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2004, 12:43:00 AM »
Thanks Short! Deal.  ;)

I'm not sure what effect it'll have, if any, but escaping in the event of orange being released is a prime goal, whether it's that or a combo of things or something totally different. I think Ill go over that concenus thread again aswell as the recent ones.

ragnaroekk

  • Guest
losses
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2004, 07:10:00 PM »
The more solvents and steps applied, the more losses. Thats unavoidable.

The ferric chloride method was pointed at by sandman not me, I just provided the link and some theory. Sandman is not as new as it may seem (so I am right, and I am sure on this), I suggest to read his posts well and to follow the hints given.

I did it once - the search -I wont do it always.

Boil with several portions of dry TETRA (perchlorethylene) till no decolorization appears. (of the TETRA). Wash with hot extraction non-polar then. Naphta/Colemans is better as toluene as being more selective. Do the ferric-chloride step. Basify/extract, gass.

No guarantee of course.
And yes, the ferric chloride polymerization should work on all high-molecular weight polymeres and make them to ultrahigh-molecular weight polymeres with seperable properties.

And use the search engine.
This is not new.
The OzBees had this years ago already and have beaten it years ago.

RaG


spectralshift

  • Guest
Ill go over it. :-P
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2004, 08:57:00 PM »
Ill go over it.  :P

UncleFester

  • Guest
I hope it still works...
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2004, 02:10:00 AM »
The last time I tried the grind pills with solvent to de-gum, then base with NaOH in isopropyl alc and extract with solvent method on sudo pills was over a year ago, but it was working just fine then with yield dependent upon how finely ground the pill mass was. That, of course doesn't mean it still works or will 6 months from now. That ferric chloride attck upon polymers sounds interesting and I will investigate it further. As to using water instead of alc, the pill mass stayed much more amenable to extraction using alc to base the sudo.

spectralshift

  • Guest
I wonder what happens at the miscible portion...
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2004, 01:54:00 PM »
I wonder what happens at the miscible portion comprising the basified alky, orange and the extraction NP?

Geez said he hadn't been described an experiment by swig about using alk in the tetratrap. But I'm sure he's tried orange pills with the Waterless A/B and failed.

Now I'm thinking that the reason hellmans took days to migrate was because he used so much water. The fb contained in the orange was so dilute with water, that inside the small miscible portion with the NP, there is little pfed able to migrate per unit of time.

with alcohol, it would increase the miscible portion.
and by using little it would concentrate the pfed:orange within that zone.

gentle heating to lower the viscosity and increase the currents.

I hope alcohol works a treat in the tetra trap, I think it will.

mr_pyrex

  • Guest
Sorry that this post doesn't related to the...
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2004, 09:58:00 AM »
Sorry that this post doesn't related to the current topic at hand but is from 10-15 posts previously but this is the first chance I've had to explain details in regards to defoamer.  The kind that was mentioned is likely a very common type that I think you'd find almost anywhere no matter where in the U.S....it is concentrated and for spa use DOES oonly require a very small amount to be effective.  It is silicone based and I have found it to be excellent for breaking up emulsions that otherwise won't seperate when doing an A/B extraction.  As for whether or not it would work with a straight solvent extraction I can't say.  But it is worth a try if you find no other alternatives since it is not expensive and if it doesn't work for this purpose...it will work for many other techniques and will probably last forever when used on such small scale as compared to the typical use as a spa defoamer.  As for getting rid of it once you've gotten your solvent separated...I have found at least with gassing...it wasn't even a issue...just gas and then rinse your product with clean fresh solvent like normal and your done as is.  Pyrex out of information ;-)


adroit_synth

  • Guest
SHORTY
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2004, 04:44:00 AM »
Nope, SWIM hasnt tried the tetra trap yet. That was going to be his next move but he pretty much gave up on extractions because of the pain-in-the-ass and is looking for an alternate source. Difficulties in aquiring certain substances and lack of investment capital have just recently led him back to extractions. :(  He is gonna try the tetra trap next and would appreciate it if some bees would PM him with some brands that the tetra is known to clean.

UncleFester

  • Guest
some clarification
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2004, 04:39:00 AM »
a couple opf years ago, this method gave close to 100% yield on extraction if one let the solvents work for a day or so in the fridge,...now the yield is going down like a rock in water. There is something in the mix which sucks up freebase better  or as good as solvent. This was a simple method...freebase the goods and extract...then gas to get crystals. I will soon start talking like those guys on the Cartoon Channel....feet stuck to floor!....Can't move!...
In any case, the alcohol added to base the ephedrine caused no problem so long as enough solvent was used in toto to keep the alkie from preventing the crystals from crashing out in gassing.